Hello Atheists,
Why do physicists say that space is flat? I’ve heard that this statement is a two dimensional approximation. But we are surrounded by stars in every direction. I tried listening to this small clip:
I still don’t get it. Is the guy in this video evading the question? And what is the use of a two dimensional approximation when we live in a three dimensional world?
Thank you, Atheists
Rat spit
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The galaxies are scattered throughout the universe like they are on the surfaces of soap bubbles. Some bubbles are larger than others. The universe is like a bubble bath.
Okay. So Space is curved in 3-D but not 2-D?
If you listen carefully he is actually saying that we have no idea the shape of the universe. The universe is so much bigger than what we can see. What we do see looks flat to us.
"It's like taking a square mile of the earth and trying to determine its shape. It just looks flat to us."
When we travel out 13 billion years and look at the universe its geometry looks the same. It looks the same from every point in space. We measure the flat universe the same was we once measured the circular earth. with triangles.
You pick a point in space 13 billion light years away, and then you pick another point 13 billion light years away. You draw a line connecting the points and then two lines back to you and you measure the angles. On a flat plain you get 180 degrees. If the universe were curved you would get a non-Euclidean triangle with degrees greater than one hundred eighty.
He is not saying that the universe is not three dimensional. He is only asserting that it is best to view it on a two dimensional plain. That is what the measurements suggest. Remember, we are only measuring a very small amount of the known universe. We don't know how big it is. The idea of universe stacked on universe stacked on universe is a allusion to string theory. It's not that important in understanding the flat universe (at this point).
He is using Einstein's theory of gravity. All objects warp the space around them, like bowling balls on a flat trampoline. Remember this is a model of space. It is what scientists can observe. As our comprehension increases and as we learn more. our theories will change. It is also said that space is expanding like the surface of a large balloon.
This might help. The expansion of space is not the things in space but space itself. It is not three dimensional objects that are expanding but one dimensional space. The surface of the balloon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1UC6HpxY28
I am not an astrophysicist and this is the way I grasp it. Someone else might do a better job. I am only an atheist. My background is psychology.
rat spit: "Why do physicists say that space is flat?"
Because very few people can think in 3D. They use "flat" to reach the masses since they tend to understand "flat" better than spherical. Here is a good example. You know the game of Chess? It is 2D. I could never grasp the concept of 2D Chess. Even played against a Master. He said I could set up a difficult defense, but would always lose. I then suggested we try 3D Chess, à la Star Trek. I would always smoke his ass. Why? Because my mind always thinks in 3D. My problem is that I cannot think in 2D. However, even I would use the "2D" analogy due to so many people who just cannot grasp 3D effects like those of gravity in space. Dang. Even I am having a hard time trying to laymanize this. I think I'll quit while I am behind.
rmfr
It isn't a references to dimensions (although it's easy to see how it could be mistaken for that). It means that space is approximately Euclidean. Which is just a fancy way of saying it obeys the rules you learned in (Euclidean) Geometry class. That triangles contain 180 degrees, that spheres have a volume of 4/3*pi*r^3, etc. It is a reference to a LACK of curvature.
They can only put limits on the universes' curvature. Or in other words, no measurement has revealed any detectable curvature; so if it's curved, that curvature must be very small at the scale of the observable universe. That is why they say it is "flat".
Heck, guys, I just learned something today with all your explanations. Cool!
@ Tin-Man
If you turned your hat over, you might learn more since it would be easier to suck it up. ;-P LOL
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "If you turned your hat over, you might learn more since it would be easier to suck it up."
Tried that once. Totally flooded my thought carburetor. Took me almost an hour to get re-cranked.
Thank you for the explanation guys. When I attempt to learn about such topics, I run across concepts that can take me a while to get my head around. For example, when I first encountered the concept of "nothing", that not even time would be present, wow, that was a tough one to comprehend.
Somehow it is more palatable to deal with that than visualize Tin-Man activating his optional wet-vac.
I’m still really, really upset about this. A flat universe seems to contradict general relativity. And a 2 dimensional approximation is unsatisfactory. Ie. we don’t live on a plane!!! Neptune’s orbit for example. WTF.
You are missing the point entirely. Science builds models. It takes in all the available information and then structures it in a way that incorporates as much information as possible.
Listen to the video.
1. We only have a very small slice of space to look at. "It is like we took a one square mile of earth and measured it. It would look flat."
2. Space is flat by virtue of the fact that we can use Euclidean Geometry to measure it. Euclidean Geometry is a two dimensional system. (Try This)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDK18bcUz4&t=78s
Brian Cox actually says, "We do not know the shape of the universe." "The best way we can explain the universe is flat." "The best explanation for this is that the universe is way bigger than the piece we can see. It's like looking at a one mile square piece of the earth." "Thinking about it in two dimensions is the best way to think about it. You just forget the other for now."
All that is being said is that measuring space and distances currently, Euclidean Geometry works. For all intent and purpose we can think of the universe as a flat plain. Our math works this way. No one is discounting the three dimensional nature of the universe. Thinking in 3D does not help us with measurements. You can define flatness by using a triangle - (Reference the Video I tagged.)
Listen to Brian Cox. "Yes, there is a third dimension. This is just a generalization of space. (The point is,) we can picture it in two dimensions. "
A TWO DIMENSIONAL MODEL WORKS BEST FOR SCIENCE AND MEASUREMENTS. That's the point. No one is denying a 3ed dimension. The flat universe model simply eliminates the 3D model for ease of comprehension and measurement.
It isn't a 2 dimensional approximation. It is a 3 dimensional Euclidean space.
Sometimes the word "flat" means 2 dimensional, and sometimes it means Euclidean (typically 2 or 3 dimensional). In this case it is a reference to it being Euclidean (3 dimensional).
Yes it is confusing and perhaps not the best choice of terminology; but it is a term commonly used in the field.
I hope that answers your question of why you keep hearing the universe described as being "flat" (Euclidean); when we all know it isn't "flat" (2 dimensional).
Nyarlathotep: Sorry
I wrote my response before reading yours. I should have just given you an agree.
It actually come straight out of general relativity. There are many solutions to Einstein's GR equations. Some of them describe a space with:
Solution of type C are sometimes called "flat", despite the fact they are not 2 dimensional.
Others have already commented here on the fact that the word "flat" is used as a synonym for "Euclidean", regardless of how many dimensions the space in question has, but it's worth expanding on this point.
Basically, mathematicians have devised a number of different coordinate systems, that can be used to represent a given space. The most familiar coordinate system is the Cartesian coordinate system, which is used to represent Euclidean spaces, but other coordinate systems exist, such as cylindrical polar coordinates, spherical polar coordinates, prolate spherical coordinates, oblate spherical coordinates, ellipsoidal coordinates, and there's even a bipolar coordinate system (for more details on these, see Vector Analysis, With An Introduction To Tensor Analysis by Murray R. Spiegel (Schaum's Outline Series, ISBN 0 07 084378 3)).
However, all the other coordinate systems differ from Cartesian coordinates, in that they possess a curvature. The coordinate curves and surfaces in these systems include curved surfaces and curved lines, which define the geodesics in these spaces, namely, the paths between two points in space that cover the shortest distance. It's tempting to think that a geodesic between two points is always a straight line segment between those points, but in general coordinate systems, this is not the case. The geodesics in general coordinate systems, consist of coordinate curves passing between the two points. Admittedly, this is a counter-intuitive concept when first encountered, but, this concept applies in a robust manner, when applying these coordinate systems to the modelling of real spaces. For example, the shortest distance between two points on the Earth's surface, if one is restricted to travelling on that surface, are great circles passing through the two points, and of course, those great circles possess a curvature.
Which brings us neatly to the concept of orthogonal curvilinear coordinates, also covered in detail in the reference above (which was a standard textbook for undergraduate mathematicians back in the 1980s). These are usually defined in terms of transformations from Euclidean coordinates. So, for example, if a 3D space has points referenced by coordinates (u, v, w) in a general curvilinear system, then u, v and w can themselves be represented as functions of x, y and z where x, y and z are the familiar Euclidean coordinates. For example, in the particular case of spherical polar coordinates (r, θ, φ), the relationships are as follows:
x = r cos θ cos φ
y = r cos θ sin φ
z = r sin θ
and inverse relationships for r, θ and φ in terms of x, y and z can also be written (though the board facilities make it difficult for me to reproduce these here).
Now, each coordinate system has associated with it, a quantity called a metric tensor, which in the case of a 3D space, can be written as a 3×3 matrix. In the case of a 3D Euclidean coordinate system, the metric tensor for that coordinate system is the 3×3 identity matrix, with values of 1 in the diagonal entries, 0 in other entries. The metric tensor for a spherical coordinate system, on the other hand, is rather more complicated, and its entries include variable entries involving functions of θ and φ, some of these being off-diagonal in the matrix. Spaces represented by general curvilinear coordinate systems, with metric tensors of this form (off-diagonal and variable components), all possess intrinsic curvature. Unfortunately the board doesn't make it easy to post the actual matrix representations thereof, but you can find the details in numerous textbooks.
The same principle can be generalised to spaces of N dimensions, where N is any number you care to choose, at which point the metric tensor for a space of this sort becomes an N×N square matrix. For the four-dimensional space-time representation of general relativity, matters become complicated further by the need to distinguish between local spaces, which may have a local curvature dominated by gravitating objects in the local space, and global space, which on the large scale may have a curvature that is negligible, and indistinguishable observationally from the zero curvature of a true Euclidean space. It turns out that there are interesting connections between the global curvature and the amount of matter in the observable universe, but this is starting to run deep into cosmological territory that isn't necessary here.
In short, as others have commented, "flat" is used as a synonym for "Euclidean", i.e., zero global curvature of space.
Pretty dang cool. I confess the higher math levels of most of this is far outside my range of knowledge. (Pre-calc/Basic calc are pretty much my limits.) However, I do understand and can more-or-less follow the overall concepts in a general sense. Fascinating stuff.
@ Tin-Man Re:"Understanding"
See. That new circuit board I sent you seems to have helped.
rmfr
@ Calli
Every time you post I realise that I CAN understand some of this stuff, that like TM I used to let float waaaaayyyy above my head...thank you...now I have a headache caused by brain overload. I am going to lie down "darling wheres my shiraz?"
Seriously, thank you.
Have you heard of the Pythagorean Theorem? Did you know there could be infinite number of them? One for the (x, y) 2d plane, and the (x, y, z) 3D space. This can also be used for 4D universe, 5D universe, etc., etc.
Funny thing is I thought I had invented the 3D Pythagorean Theorem when I was only 8 years old. A year later, I found out I had not invented it, only derived as others had already done about 25 centuries before. What a let-down. However, from a certain point of view, I DID invent the 3D Pythagorean Theorem since I did derive it from mine own thoughts while star gazing one night.
Attachement: PNG of the two theorems.
rmfr
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Of course, one of the more intimidating aspects of general relativity, is that you need to make the leap to tensor analysis (and, even more intimidatingly, the Ricci Calculus) in order to do anything useful therein. That's because one of the requirements of any result in general relativity, is that it should be true in all possible coordinate systems, and working with tensors is the only way known thus far to guarantee this. Plus, some of the quantities manipulated in relativistic expressions can only be manipulated within the realm of tensor analysis, because they're rank 4 tensors (see, for example, the covariant curvature tensor), and trying to manipulate these outside tensor analysis constitutes the mother of all brands of masochism.
One of the big hurdles to overcome is mastering the notational conventions, which are densely packed with information. Tensor algebra expresses in a few short symbols, concepts that would take a whole chapter of a book to render without those conventions. That combination of dense packing of information into a few symbols, and the resulting brevity, catches even fairly astute undergraduate mathematicians unawares, until they've spent a fair amount of time familiarising themselves with the operation of those conventions. Once that hurdle is overcome, however, tensor analysis is almost frighteningly expressive.
@ Calilasseia
Yeah, I remember that stuff in my astrophysics classes. Now days, I just use a computer program to calculate for me. Or, I would write the program myself.
rmfr
Okay. Thank you for your answers. I knew I could depend on the rational thinking, intelligent Atheist for a solid answer. I feel satiated. arakish - funny that you mentioned your Independent discovery of Pythagorean’s theorem at eight.
I personally invented the “SOH CAH TOA” memory helper for trigonometry. I see it everywhere now and wonder if it slowly made its way from my invention of it. Maybe just coincidence.
Cheers,
rat spit
@Rat Spit Re: "SOH CAH TOA”
...chuckle... Funny you should mention that. I remember it by thinking, "Soak-a toe-a." But you have to think in an Italian accent. lol
@ rat spit
How old are you? SOH CAH TOA was in me dad's college math books printed in the 1940s. I even taught it to my first Trigonometry teacher in 10th Grade.
rmfr
@Tin Man
Ha! Very funny the things we rediscover generation after generation!