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What objective evidence can you demonstrate for a deity or deities?
Intelligent design, Cosmological argument, the Moral argument, The fact that well over 5 billion copies of the bible have been printed.
That last one is not stable, granted. But might I ask you another question?
1, Intelligent design is not evidence, it's a poorly conceived pig with lipstick. Thoroughly debunked pseudo-science.
2. Cosmological argument - the version used by theists like William Lane Craig, also completely debunked
https://www.scientificexploration.org/forum/the-kalam-cosmological-argum...
3. Moral argument - another Craig favorite, and surprise, again logically destroyed. Copied from bigthink.com
"The notion that everyone would turn into robbers, rapists, and murderers if it were discovered there is no God is ludicrous. Morals are based on cultural upbringing and, to a degree, genetics. Likewise, if morals were the domain of God and He is omnipotent, then there is a flaw in His creation when humans do bad things. There is no sense in this argument; altruism and empathy are part of our evolution as social beings. Living in society helps us create morals for the betterment of the whole.
So you are 0 fer 3 and then you throw out an argument from popularity. You are not doing well.
I asked for objective evidence, none of those are objective evidence? Why do theists not know what objective means? The bible is a book, it can no more validate it's own claims than the Harry Potter books can, and arguments by definition are not objective evidence. Intelligent design is a claim, based on a superstitious creation myth that no objective evidence can be demonstrated for, and of course it would not evidence a deity anyway. The number of bibles printed is another common logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum, it;s a bare appeal to numbers.
I asked you what "OBJECTIVE" evidence you could demonstrate for a deity.
No offence intended but your answer implies you need to give this a lot more critical scrutiny.
You can ask me any question you like.
I am not able to give an actual documented peace of tangible evidence to prove Gods existence. Only the results I see in people and my own testimony. As a matter of fact tangible material is hard to come by depending on whom I’m talking to. I could hand a person an orange and that could be enough. This is not the case for most lol. You want evidence without philosophy. And what do you get if you eliminate philosophy from the tangible. Your left with a thought, or theory that isn’t complete but cause there is always a counter point. Philosophy and the tangible work hand-in-hand. You can not separate the two without conflict.
"I am not able to give an actual documented peace of tangible evidence to prove Gods existence."
I never asked fro proof, but I simply don't see why anyone would believe a claim that no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for.
"Only the results I see in people and my own testimony."
Anecdotal claims, all religions make claims based on these, they tell us nothing about the veracity of the beliefs. Alien abduction stories make such claims, and many of them are so convinced, and "altered by their experience" they pass polygraph tests, does this mean they are telling the truth?
Jesus Freak,
A counterpoint is not important if it is significantly inferior to the main point. One can always find loopholes in every argument about the world of atoms and energy, but they may be ignored if they are not a serious challenge. It's not about certainty unless you are doing mathematics.
Jesus freak,
"I am not able to give an actual documented peace of tangible evidence to prove Gods existence. "
There are thousands of gods. Please use the specific name of the deity you are referring to instead of the title "god". If you are referring to the biblical God one of his aliases is "Yahweh". He is the God of the Hebrews and the god of the armies. Or maybe you are referring to Yeshua (Jesus)?
The only reason to believe in Yahweh or Yeshua is because they supposedly have the power to give you eternal life. So if a person isn't interested in that there's no reason to give either one a second thought. And remember, in the biblical fairy tale there's no guarantee that it will be an enjoyable eternal life. There are no marriages in the golden cube so don't expect any sex. You will be cooped up in a gaudy bejeweled golden cube behind a high wall on a waterless planet that doesn't have any darkness. You will get one piece of fruit per month. And the water comes from Yahweh's throne, probably his pee.
Other gods offer more appealing eternities so please be specific and use the deity's name.
Assuming you as a person must love someone in your personal life.( I am not trying to get personal info on you. more less ones personal life doesn't mean much to me.) But for example purposes lets take me or your average every day jo. Lets say he(she) loves another person. Loving someone close is usually established over time yes? For say, someone's mom or something. For this reason you wouldn't love some random person off the streets with all you heart. As you would a mother. So why is it people love God. If a relationship is established on communication and forgiveness then how can one love God? The fact hundreds upon hundreds can devote their lives to a God makes a statement of its own.
"No one else holds or has held the place in the heart of the world which Jesus holds. Other gods have been as devoutly worshiped; but no other man has been so devoutly loved." - John Knox
The mind is an incredible thing. When we deeply believe something, it can feel just as real as the things we can touch. That doesn't mean it's actually real. If you live long enough in the delusion that God hears your prayers, loves you deeply, intervenes supernaturally when you need help, etc. then yeah, you might love this idea as if it was a real being. Hallucinations can work similarly.
When I was a Christian, I loved God more than I've ever loved anyone because, in my imagination, he was perfect. Perfect love, compassion, support, forgiveness, bliss, etc. My imagination of him was that he was far better than any human. And then when I came to realize that it was all make-believe, all of it crumbled. I realized I'd never actually made contact with God. It was all in my head and then my heart had followed suit. My emotional connection has no bearing on what is actually real.
"I came to realize that it was all make-believe, all of it crumbled"
specially when it comes to forgiving and just god...this really made me think. what kind of god that forgives but punishes..
lame and really stupid god if you'd ask me..
Love is a word we use to describe an emotion, and though it is often used generically we know that the emotions can vary wildly, as your own question shows. I can't speak for what motives people to love an idea as if it is real when there is no real evidence that it is, but other religions make precisely the same claim, and I'm fairly certain you could have interviewed Nazis during WWII who would have claimed to "love" their Fuhrer, or soldiers of the red army who who loved Stalin, yet their idea of them would have been unlikely to reflect reality. Charles Manson had followers who loved him, years later they can't explain why they were so easily duped and deluded. By comparison loving an idea or an ideal is probably a much easier delusion.
"No one else holds or has held the place in the heart of the world which Jesus holds."
I'm not sure that's true, but even if it were it doesn't evidence any of the supernatural claims made about him.
"Other gods have been as devoutly worshiped; but no other man has been so devoutly loved." - John Knox"
Argumentum ad populum, a bare appeal to numbers, I urge you research common logical fallacies, and what they mean. What's more a mathematician with John Knox's credentials should know better than to make such obviously fallacious assertions.
Based on this vague dribble, then a cat lady is a supreme priestess of a valid religion.
Just like some love god, others love puzzles, mysteries, cats and dogs. Even sports teams.
Hundreds can devote their lives to a god? What about the 911 terrorists, their commitment is not debatable?
Ahem! Cat lady here:
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Title: Bastet
Class: Deity
Age: A few thousand years
Strength: Pushing things off of tables
Weakness: Boxes
@Jared.
I didn't know she had a weakness for boxes. I bought my mother a small keepsake box this afternoon! :-o It's a sign, Jared! A sign, I tell you!
People fall in love with objects all the time... they feel strong connections and even have "conversations" with this object... how is a balloon animal any different than bible?
@Burn Re: Balloon animals
Well, for starters, balloon animals are FUN. The bible is just a big book with a bunch of jumbled ancient stories about killing and raping and magic tricks.
Next, balloon animals are colorful and squishy. You can hug a balloon animal and make it your bestest buddy. A bible is hard and drab. Nobody wants to hug a bible.
You can build up static on a balloon animal and it will "magically" stick to you. It's awesome. Try sticking a bible to you. It just falls to the floor. Boring.
And when I talk to my balloon animal I can make it "talk" back to me with little squeaky sounds when I rub it. Try talking to a bible. It just sits there. No sound at all. Blah.
So you see? Many differences.
why do you want us to change your mind??if you're faithful to your god and a true blue believer why change..?
you're god will punish you for that...i'm just warning yah... you don't wanna go through this process bruh...
don't go to that slippery slope moment and regret why you came...
just saying...good luck
I'll give you some easy ones to start with:
1. Explain how I can have freewill if your deity already knows my fate via omniscience, and in fact, knew my fate and every moment of my life before creation.
2. Explain how heaven can be perfectly wonderful if some of the people we love are burning in the flames of eternal hell.
and just for fun:
3, Why does the Holy Spirit (Ghost) get such small supporting role in the Trinity compared to God Almighty and Jesus Christ? Hardly seems like an equal to me. It's sort of like Martin Short from The Three Amigos or Larry from the Stooges.
I'm going to try my best to answer 1-3. God knows the intent of the heart. He does know your every action even before you were born. I heard a professor of mine say once, "The future is ever changing and never set in stone until it passes the present moment." God is omniscience and for sure He's beyond my understanding but no where does scripture say God decides our actions. In fact, if I wanted to, I could pick a my cup of water or leave it there. Its my choice. God gave us free will so that he wouldn't have a bunch of robots fallowing him around.
I'm sorry if this doesn't suffice, please give your feed back. I'll get to the other two questions in just a bit. I will come back to the other two.
It doesn't. Either God is all knowing or he isn't. If he is, there is no freewill because his knowledge of all things, past, present and future, cannot be wrong. If he's not, then he cannot predict the future so how can his prophecies work? Lucky guesses?
There are endless semantic attempts to get around this, like saying he is beyond your understanding, but they all fail basic logic tests.
"a planet of play things, we dance on a string, of powers we cannot perceive" - Neil Peart
Hate to jump into the middle like this, but am I the only one who does not see anything other than a "period" in the OP???
He edited it.
@Cyber Re: "He edited it."
Ah. Okay. Good. One more day I can check off on my calendar for not being insane. Phew!
Well, don’t be too hasty there, TM. ;)
@Cyber
Dammit... Got me on that one. Still keeping the checkmark on the calendar, though. *sticking out tongue*
I noticed that too. I suspect that the freak has been editing his post(s) without informing anyone.
Freak, it is considered unethical to edit posts without declaring the action.
Tin-man,
Yeah! I was kinda wondering about that big, glaring, sucking vacuum. Faith, in the religious sense, is just a pathetic attempt to bypass reason. You leave out the evidence and the reasoning and just leap directly to the conclusion. How very economical! It's user friendly. No experience required! It's also very democratic--anybody can do it! What is there not to like about it? I'll put my faith in the Great Green Spider that resides on Jupiter.
"but no where does scripture say God decides our actions."
So you obviously don't believe that any biblical prophesies have been fulfilled then. Nevertheless religious apologists make this claim repeatedly without seeing the paradox for free will.
Try this as one obvious example of the bible claiming their deity interferes with free will
Exodus 7
3"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4"When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.…"
You could read about Job of course, his free will and his families seems to have been unimportant to your deity in the bible, and on and on it goes, every time the bible claims your deity murdered someone, or even whole cities, or encourage humans to do so in his name. How about the Noah flood myth, so much for the free will of every human being on the planet except for one small family, ah well...
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