Hello to everyone here at Atheist Republic,
I decided to join this site so that I could engage with atheists about their beliefs. As a former atheist, I wanted to challenge the atheist worldview while also putting my own to the test.
To begin, I am unashamed to admit that I am a Protestant Christian by the grace of God. I believe that God is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, just, merciful, and good in all of his ways. I believe that he--having a divine will, mind, and purpose of his own--personally decided to create the world for his own glory and the good of its inhabitants. I believe that mankind, created in his own likeness, chose to commit evil on the basis of deceit and ignorance. I believe that God, being Holy and apart from evil, punished mankind for his evil, thus resulting in a world full of pain and death. I believe that God, being merciful, sent his eternal Son (for God is love, and love requires relationship) to pay off our deserved eternal separation from God--who is holy. I believe that his Son was the historical Jesus Christ of Nazareth, attested to by the writings of the apostles and the prophets handed down through the generations since the beginning of history (what we call the Bible.) These historical accounts depict a man who healed and taught the chosen nation of Israel, but was rejected by them and suffered death by crucifixion at the hands of Pontius Pilate (predestined in God's purpose of redemption). These scriptures attest to him rising from death three days after, and rising into the spiritual realm of God some time after that--never to die again. I believe that anyone who puts faith in Jesus as the Son of God and repents of their evil will be born again as a child of God and be given the gift of eternal life with God.
Now, surely this is a small summary of what I believe, as Christian men have spent these past two thousand years expounding on the intricacies God's plan in the chaos of human history.
Having the basics of what I believe out of the way, I now present the topic of this thread: Atheist Eschatology. For anyone unfamiliar with the term, eschatology is derived from the Greek words eskhatos, meaning ‘last,’ and logia, meaning 'study.' In simple man's terms it is the study of the end of human history and things related to it. Christian eschatology is focused on the return of God's Son to rule and reign on this earth, the final judgement of mankind, and finally a renewed and eternal universe in which only goodness exists. In other words, eschatology is the Christian's hope for all wrong things to be made right by God.
Surely, other religions have their own views of how the end of human history will play out, but I am here to pose the question to the atheists: how will (or might) human history end, and what is the ultimate goal or purpose of a universe with no God?
I believe your answer will fall into one of two categories: It will either be pessimistic, having humanity destroyed from outside or within, or it will be optimistic (if you can really call it so), having humanity achieve immortality to float about in a cold and impersonal universe. Now, I think both of these eschatologies are problematic to our existence, but only one is truly relevant to atheists today. Immortality is very unlikely to be achieved within our lifetimes, and so what good does that eschatology do for you if you will be nonexistent by the time it comes to fruition? In other words, you will likely no longer exist or have any relevance to the universe in the near future (sure, you can impact others, but how does that help a nonexistent you?). It may sound noble to spend your existence for the benefit of those in the future who may achieve the optimistic end, but what does nobility matter in a universe with no God? Noble people die every day. Nobility can't save you. Humanity can't save you. You can't save you. So, as an atheist, you are forced to believe that your life is ultimately of little importance in a universe that is only subjectively important to those who are lucky enough to exist.
So I ask you this: do you want to exist? If not, then die now. If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and I look forward to reading your answers.
-Grace Alone
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No such thing as the Atheist world view.
Hi Chimp3,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Whether or not atheism is a world view is not what my post was about, so I would not like to get sidetracked. Please respond to the questions I posed.
Thank you
-Grace Alone
Grace Alone: "Please respond to the questions I posed".
No, I find them boring. I may respond to your responses to others if they are interesting.
So be it, Chimp3. I will discuss with with those who wish to respond in a meaningful way.
Thanks for the time
-Grace Alone
To say there's no such thing as an atheist worldview, has become part of the atheist worldview.
John: Compare Ayn Rand to Kurt Vonnegut and then get back to.me.
"To say there's no such thing as an atheist worldview, has become part of the atheist worldview."
He said no such thing as **THE** atheist worldview, he didn't say there was no such thing as an atheists worldview. Atheism isn't a worldview. Can you really keep misunderstanding such a simple premise John? Atheism and atheist are describing two different things John, as I have tried to explain to you before.
My world view necessarily is atheistic, because it can be nothing else as I don't believe any deities exist, but atheism is not a worldview, as it is only the lack of a single belief. Why do you need this explained repeatedly John, are you being deliberately obtuse?
Atheists have worldviews but they're can vary in every single aspect, except one of course. Thus it is absurd to say "THE atheist worldview" as it is a meaningless cliche theists trot tout to try and imply atheism carries a burden of proof.
Complaining about the burden of proof is also part of the atheist worldview.
Lying and trolling atheists is part of John's worldview. This doesn't mean it is part of the theists worldview.
As Avoiding Responsibility is the worldview of the theists.
Worldview has nothing at all to do with Atheism. It's basic science 101. The burden of proof lies on the assertion being made. Nothing need be believed until sufficient evidence is discovered to validate that belief. Got any evidence for your version of god? Love to hear it.
@Grace Alone....
Do you have any idea of just how many times some deluded theist turns up here with exactly the same "schtick" you are trying to pull..?
Your post is patronising in the extreme..... we are atheists... we know better than you just what you believe..... just as we know that you opened with an outright lie..... You have never been an atheist ! If you had you would know we have no world view..... there is no atheist hand book giving us a dogma.... we leave that sort of foolishness to others ….. there are as many different world views as there are atheists.... the only thing we share is a rejection of the primitive belief in god/God or gods. Beyond that we share very little.... but like I say.... had you actually been an atheist....you would have known this...…
So the big questions are why did you lie and what do you really want here....?
Hi watchman,
Thank you for responding to my post. As with Chimp3, you did not answer my questions. On top of that, you accused me of being a liar without any evidence. What I would really like is for you to thoughtfully respond to my questions without resorting to personal attacks.
Thank you
-Grace Alone
Now you are making the same sounds as a shady used car salesman caught jacking up the price in a junker, yet still attempting to make the sale.
It is still dishonest, and it is still a junker.
@ Grace
So I ask you this: do you want to exist? If not, then die now. If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?
If you believe in your heaven and sure resurrection at the right hand of your god, to wander endlessly singing its praises then why don't you just die now? You have something to die for!
Me, I live every minute of my fragile life in the moment, I savour the dawns, dusks, my garden. I love my friends, I adore my hobbies and have the purpose of "this is it, this is the now" in every waking moment. I know I am a lucky man, I have had a career I love (and still work at sometimes) I have good friends and wonderful proteges I have helped in their dreams. I don't need to thank a god for this, anymore than I need to thank it for the terrible dark times of loss, death and betrayal. When I die my life dies with me, a spark of what I am lives on in my natural son, a spark of what I made myself lives on in my proteges. Who could wish for more?
Hi Old man shouts,
Thanks for responding to my questions!
To begin, I would say that I love life for many of the same reasons you do: the beauty of the universe and life, the engaging hobbies I have, the wonderful friends and family by my side, etc. I believe that God designed life on this earth to be beautiful and desirable, and while I have a hope for life after my death, that in no way makes me want to give up on this precious slice of life I have been given. On the contrary, my hope of life after death gives me something to live for now: a God who loved me and came to die so I could live! God commands his children to love and serve others in this life, and to murder anyone (even yourself) is against his command.
As I explained in my original post, your life may be filled with subjective meaning (assuming there is no God), but once you die your existence is irrelevant to a cold and random universe. I, personally, could wish for more, and I thank God that he promises to give us eternally more!
Thank you
-Grace Alone
@ Grace
So why not try for Valhalla and die a warriors death? They die for the same reasons and have a god in Odin just as provable as your mythology. Why did you choose that one out of the thousands of heavens and hells on offer? What convinced you that all the other gods, including the catholic version of your own, is false?
Why am I not surprised at the lack of response? *sound of cricket chirping* Preaching is so much more satisfying than actually answering the hard questions.
Hey there Old man shouts,
I do have a life outside of sitting on this forum, so I appreciate your patience in my responding to everyone's answers. You aren't really answering the hard questions that I posed, so I suppose that makes two of us. The existence of my God is not the topic of this thread.
Thank you
-Grace Alone
@ Grace
I didn't ask about the existence of your god, I asked what made you choose that particular god out of all the others on offer, some with better claims to existence than yours. A fair question and one entirely on topic as you brought up the subject of a "choice" in the first place.
Please do not come here and try and confine an open debate forum to your pre selected agenda where you feel comfortable (and no doubt rehearsed). That is intellectually dishonest. Also you will find less kindliness than I have shown you so far.
"The existence of my God is not the topic of this thread."
Is that why you mentioned it 16 times in your OP?
Deleted post because I misread a statement made by GA. My apologies.
The purpose of a person's life is decided by each individual and is thus a subjective notion.
Attributing a purpose to the whole of existence is to invoke the supernatural. It simply isn't meaningful to me to say there is something greater than the whole of existence.
I give my life meaning by living true to my principles, which at their best involves maximizing pleasure and minimizing harm. As long as I live and as long as my actions are meaningful to others, my life has meaning and is of absolute importance.
It seems that the OP believes that life without a belief in god has no meaning, and that non-existence is preferable to such a state. It is well-known that most Christians place little or no value on their lives and consider their time after death to be infinitely more important, but it isn't clear why they want to continue to exist or why they would imply their existence is anything other than empty and vain in their philosophy. For me, it is pointless to speculate about a situation where I do not exist and I do not live to my principles.
Hi Sapporo,
Thanks for responding!
You say that the purpose and meaning of life is given by the being alive itself. In other words, outside of what that being thinks, there is no real purpose. If the universe has no mind behind it (God), then it is purposeless by your own definition. If the universe is purposeless, then so is everything inside of it--that includes you and I.
I believe that I have a real and meaningful purpose in relationship to existence outside of myself, given to me by a God who cares for my eternal destiny and place in his ordered design.
Thank you
-Grace Alone
No, I said that meaning can only come from the purpose I give myself, and that this is of absolute importance. I never said there is no real purpose. It seems that because I said my purpose is subjective and unique to me, you think that my life has no real purpose. That is entirely your opinion.
By your reasoning, if you are not god, and are outside god, then you have no real purpose. So either you think you are god, or you think you have no real purpose.
Attributing a purpose to the whole of existence would mean that there is something still greater than the whole, which is absurd. You might as well say the universe has a consciousness or is alive. This does not mean that it is not possible for beings within the universe to have a consciousness and be alive. Similarly, it does not mean that beings within the universe are able to find purpose. I do not know what you mean by "real purpose", as though there is such a thing as a "fake purpose". If you really need to believe in an unobservable being in order to have a "real purpose", then I feel sorry for you.
@Grace Alone
The bible says that god is the savior of all of humanity:
"We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10
"He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
According to Christian dogma, everybody has been saved from their sins. Why then do they need to put their faith in Jesus?
GA, I stopped at the second sentence of your OP.
You said your god is both just and merciful. Please explain how that is possible.
GA, you gunna answer this question?
Hi CyberLN,
I was answering responses that were on topic before I addressed you in this response. I think you are avoiding my original questions posed in the OP with questions of your own. I would prefer to stay on topic.
Thank you
-Grace Alone
I already answered. You made a statement in your OP. You seem unwilling to clarify. Hmmm....seems you like control.
GA, you asked,”So I ask you this: do you want to exist? If not, then die now. If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?”
I find my existence neither empty nor vain.
What is it that You assume I believe in that could render my existence to be those thing?
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