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Does Time have a Start?
NO!
rmfr
@ Dan
My previous post was sent from my phone as I was walking back from the mailbox.
I can see you are still publishing your complete and utter nonsense. You should have just stayed away.
Ponder these:
∞ = ∞: True.
∞ + 1 = ∞: True.
∞ - 1 = ∞: True.
∞ × 2 = ∞: True.
∞ ÷ 2 = ∞: True.
Time is infinite and never had a beginning since it has always been.
Try and wrap your mind around the truth instead of believing those force fed those lies and bullshit and horse hoowhee of obstinate, dogmatic, obsolete, irrelevant, arrogant, savage, repugnant, abhorrent, reprehensible, barbaric, AND unsubstantiated and immoral Bronze and Iron religions.
Remember, ALL religions are Pure Evil. Regardless of your incredibly inane and incorrect and asinine math/logic.
rmfr
Hmmm... the axioms of infinity... which we can summarise as: 'infinity is something which when you change it, it does not change'... IE runs against all common sense. Infinity does not exist.
@Dan
"Infinity does not exist."
Therefore your god is not infinite. When was your god created, and what created this god?
As I explain in the op, God must be timeless. And finite. Everything is finite. Because God is timeless he always existed outside of time - never created, just IS.
@ Dan
timeless = ∞
outside of time = ∞
Yet you also say ∞ cannot exist. Hmm...
rmfr
You have to think in terms of 4D space time. Then God would have a definite shape (eg like a hypercube has a shape; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercube). That shape is finite in extent. So God is timeless, eternal and finite.
So all you need to do now is prove god, and that this god is a hypercube.
Proof, please.
Well time has a start implies it was created. So it must of been created by a non-natural mechanism. I do not believe a dimension could be created by a natural mechanism. I choose to call that mechanism God. Not everyones definition of God I agree. Maybe I should stick to 'creator' rather than 'god'.
God is not necessarily cube shaped :)
@Dan
"Well time has a start"
We still need to prove that time has a start.
Dan: "God is not necessarily cube shaped :)"
But its "Borg" vessel is.
Revelation 21:16 "The city is square, and its length is as great as its width. He measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand twelve stadia. Its length, width, and height are equal."
And since God will fill this vessel, God is a cube.
rmfr
Interesting... but I do not believe in Christianity and I am not arguing for it so not directly relevant to the OP.
@ Dan
My mind automatically thinks in 4D space. I can also imagine in 5D, 6D, 7D, 8D, 9D, 10D, 11D, 12D, ... ∞D space as well. And I was NEVER a mathematician. I was/am a volcanologist and astrophysicist. Yet, your supposed Baccalaureate in Math prohibits you from being able to see how flawed your logic/math is. Again, Hmm...
rmfr
I am very sorry Dan, you are using special pleading. Why can we not apply the same conditions and state that everything (including our universe) is also never created, just IS?
I think it that cause and effect applies to things in time (like our universe... it must be created) but does not apply to things outside of time (God). This seems to be the only way out of the chicken and egg problem.
Dan: "Hmmm... the axioms of infinity... which we can summarise as: 'infinity is something which when you change it, it does not change'... IE runs against all common sense. Infinity does not exist."
See? Perfect proof you have absolutely no mathematics knowledge. Thus, why should we even trust that bullshit you posted in your OP? Did you not at one time say you earned a Baccalaureate in Mathematics? If that is so, then why do you not even know these:
are not ALL True? I learned this when I was 14 years old in 9th Grade High School. How is it that a Baccalaureate in Mathematics has not learned these truths?
rmfr
Which one is false?
I checked them all on Wolfram and they all come out as true:
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=∞+÷+2+%3D+∞
Your link is broken.
rmfr
First off Dan, you are using the "special pleading" argument for your god. You built a case, but your god somehow slipped through the cracks. If your god proves that your premise is not air-tight, then that premise is not complete, or maybe flawed.
One can not prove or disprove something by a purely philosophical approach. In the past it led man to believe that man was missing a rib, or that there could be only seven major heavenly bodies.
Observation and rational thinking proved that man was not missing that rib, and that there was more than seven major heavenly bodies. And that process is required to prove or disprove that time had a start.
The answer to this question will be solved by science, not philosophy or debate.
Ummmmm ya. The theists failure in reason, is not addressed. Try again.
Does Time have a Start? HUH?
Axiom A fails - You have to prove something called "nothing" exists. We have no instance of nothing anywhere in the universe and have no idea at all what is beyond. Asserting "Nothing" is no different than asserting "God." You are going to have to support your assertion.
Axiom B is nonfalsifiable - We currently contend that time (as we know it) began during the expansion of the universe. Time as we know it is Universe Specific. We can not say what is beyond our own perceptions in our own universe. The best you can assert is "Local Universal Time is finite." You can not conclude time to be coincidental with the creation of the universe. You have no idea at all if there was a "Before the universe."
The argument dies with its Axioms no matter which one you use. FAIL
You say that there is no such thing as nothing. That would put you in the 'can't get something from nothing' camp by virtue of your lack of belief in nothing (and therefore creation from nothing). My argument still holds then.
We still can reason about what is beyond our universe; if matter/energy creation took place naturally then time must be finite (to avoid infinite density). If matter/energy did not take place naturally there is no other mechanism to explain the universe than an unnatural creation, which implies God (and God implies a start of time).
Re: OP
(Before reading any other replies...)
Truthfully, I did not read the entire OP. Got to about the second paragraph and just threw my hands up. One, I am not an Astrophysicist. Two, I am not a Quantum Mechanics Physicist. Three, I am not a Cosmologist. Therefore, I cannot help but ask, "What the hell does any of that have to do with my being an atheist???"
Granted, I do find those fields of study fascinating, and I even enjoy learning more about them from time to time. I can even have a few interesting discussions about them, but they are limited to my very basic/general knowledge in those areas. In other words, they are more along the lines of fun, thought-provoking "pastimes" for me rather than any sort of serious study. Regardless of any of that, however, those things are of little to no consideration to me as to my being an atheist. So, what exactly is your point about "the beginning of time"? Because, personally, I have ZERO idea about how/when it started.
(Okay, now to go read other responses....)
Its sort of hard to imagine a start of time without involving God. How could you naturally create a dimension? So that was the reason I posted here...
@Dan Re: "Its sort of hard to imagine a start of time without involving God."
And it's also hard to imagine eating chocolate cake without a cold glass of milk to wash it down. But sometimes, unfortunately, there just ain't any milk to be found. Oh, well.... *shrugging shoulders*...It's still a yummy piece of chocolate cake. What's your point?
Re: "How could you naturally create a dimension?"
Hell if I know! Although, maybe I could use my ACME "Dimension Generator" that I bought off e-bay from some dude named W. E. Coyote. But I'm a little afraid to push the "On" button, for obvious reasons. Otherwise, though, I suggest you go find an Astrophysicist or a Quantum Mechanics professor and run that question by them. Willing to bet they know waaaaaaaaaaay more about that shit than I ever will.
@Orignal Post by Dan
Ahh time. So many folks over complicate it and all these concepts on top of time that just serve to confuse everyone.
First, time is another human invented measuring tool, much like 2d distance measuring like the kilometer. To help organize and standardize things. No humans and the entire concept of "time" goes away, just like any other human created concept.
Second, (hah! see what I did there?) Time is simply measuring one event to another. That's it. No more no less. Once you truly understand this, all this crap that people add on to "time" goes away. There is no "time" travel, no infinite or non infinite time, no "start" of time or "end" of time. No paradoxes to time, no "something outside of time" nonsense, it really is quite simple.
A LOT of people really struggle with this. Hollywood and fiction writers have done no one any favors. By introducing ideas like time travel because.... magic.
Think about it, every unit of time humans have used always compared one event to another, now people use events that repeat in a consistent manner with ever increasing accuracy as more accuracy is needed. Once upon a time we used the earth's rotation, the lunar cycle and the earth's orbit around the sun, (seasons.) Later we used the radiation off of cesium to get a very precise measurement "of time." To compare to everything else. Ofcourse I know these people have no idea what they say because they overcomplicated the human created concept of time.
As with any idea, when you run into paradoxes, that should be an obvious sign that something basic is wrong with the concept.
If you say your "god" idea is "timeless," you just defined your god out of existence using human words to describe your god. Always cracks me up when theist say their god is timeless, you might as well be saying "my god does not exist."
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My arguments still hold if time does not exist (time does not exist is logically equivalent to time is infinite).
@ Dan
Actually, the argument of your OP could not even hold water. Think sieve with holes 66,740,831 millimeters in diameter.
rmfr
You have a lemma for that?
My argument is about energy/matter creation. So key is how long there is for matter to accumulate. If time has a start, there is a finite period for matter to accumulate. If time is infinite or does not exist, there is an infinite period for matter to accumulate... so they are equivalent for the purposes of my argument.
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