Even if psychic ability were to be scientifically proven, or someone demonstrated that they possessed the ability to determine what would happen in the future, that does not demonstrate that a creator exists, or that any of today's religions are true.
I just want to know, because there seems to be a fair share of people who claim that they are religious because they can "tell the future". I am aware that most people on this site would be skeptical of that. However, EVEN if we gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed for a moment that they really did have some psychic power, I don't see how that exactly verifies religion.
On a side note, this question doesn't even necessarily focus on psychic powers. There are many things that are related. For example, as I have mentioned before, I have had at least 20 cases where I had a dream depicting death of a person I know, and I wake up from that dream. Then, the next day I will find out that the person I dreamt of actually died around the same time as the dream. I would like to write this off as a coincidence, but to be honest, I feel that it has happened too many times to be labelled as a coincidence. People I know have told me that this demonstrates religion being true because they believe that I have been contacted by the soul of the person who has died. I feel that even if this idea of me being able to pick up some sort of signal regarding someone's death, even if it is true, does not demonstrate the supernatural. It could be that the brain has some way of picking up energy of the person dying, or it could be something that science cannot explain yet, but still natural. What do you guys think? Would something like this demonstrate the supernatural?
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In a silly way, we already have this, it's called physics.
Well it certainly wouldn't fit into the current framework of science. Demonstrating this ability in a convincing way would be difficult indeed. Would need to record the predictions ahead of time, and they would need to be rather surprising predictions; predicting the death of a very sick person or someone doing something very dangerous isn't going to be very convincing.
I'm trying not to be too confrontational here, but:
Your saying you have had dream of the death of 20 people during the time they died. Let's assume you spend 1/3rd of your life asleep and that peoples deaths are distributed evenly throughout the day. That would mean 60 people you have known would have had to die for 20 to have died while you were sleeping/dreaming. Your profile says you are 13, so I'm more than 3 times your age, yet: I don't think I've known 60 people who have died, even having been in the army. Worse still, as I get older, the rate of death of people I know seems to increase (because they are older too), meaning most of the deaths in my life didn't come when I was a child. So my skeptic alarm is kind of triggered here.
@Nyarlathotep
many people do not believe this claim that I make, and I am perfectly fine with it. I am not lying about this claim. If it is in fact wrong, I am not lying intentionally. I am still somewhat skeptical about it myself. However, my question was even if my claim could somehow be verified, does that mean that it is occurring supernaturally? I believe it doesn't necessarily mean that, and I am just looking to see if others would agree with me on that.
Pork222 :Why don't you verify that claim. Even if only to yourself before you lay it out for evidence. 20 people you have had prophetic dreams of their deaths? True or false!
@Chimp3
It happened many times. I am just saying that it happened so many times that I have a hard time labeling it as only a "coincidence". However, I am not saying that it happened because of anything significant. I am not even fully convinced that it wasn't a "coincidence" I am just kind of unsure why these dreams took place.
Finally, my question is not if it seems plausible that these events actually took place. My question is that if it were true, hypothetically, would that demonstrate the supernatural? I am only using my experiences as an example, but we could use this question for anything.
@pork222 : Can you give an example of a single dream and the circumstances of that individuals death? Perhaps that might clarify matters.
@chimp3
sure. Once I had a dream that my uncle died. I hadn't seen him in years and he lived in a different country. I live in Slovakia and he lived in the United States. In the dream he was visiting us, and he got a heart attack and died. Then, I woke up at around 5:30 in the morning. The next day I found out that he had died at around 5:15 the same morning.
Another example is my great grandmother. I hadn't seen her in about a year. I was about 8 years old when this happened. I dreamt that I went to her house and that she was lying on her bed, not moving. I remember waking up the next morning feeling sick and I was not well. On that same day, she died a sudden death.
I know thisbonly qualifies as anecdotal evidence, but the fact that it has happened quite a few times makes me wonder if it is really a coincidence or if it is something else.
Pork222 : I am skeptical of your claim that you have dreamed of all these deaths. Somehow I am not compelled to believe you.
Chimp3: you don't have to believe me. I am simply asking if these were to be true, would that demonstrate the supernatural? Can you at least answer if you think that proving these events would demonstrate evidence of the supernatural?
No, they would not be evidence for anything supernatural. Do you ever dream of people dying who do not die? Is dying a common theme in your dreaming? Perhaps you overheard talk of relatives failing health? Perhaps you have false memories of these dreams. I am sure there is an explanation that does not involve violating natural principles.
I like that answer. I think there probably is an explanation that could be found if we actually researched everything. It could even be something else that is scientific that we are not aware of. My argument originally was even if we could not find an answer with our cirrent knowledge (if) doesn't mean that it is supernatural.
1) 5:30am Slovakian time and 5:15am in the United States (which covers four time zones if you count Hawaii) are not even close to the same time.
2) The story of your grandmother says that she died during the day. Doesn't that disqualify the story of you dreaming of her death when she died?
It all seems highly suspect.
Nice catch on those details.
@ pork222
- "EVEN if we gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed for a moment that they really did have some psychic power, I don't see how that exactly verifies religion."
Indeed it doesn't, they just link it together because of confirmation bias.
- "Would something like this demonstrate the supernatural?"
I'm sceptical even if it has happened too many times for you to think that it is coincidental. Because of the previously mentioned abilities we have, like confabulation where we can actually construct memories after the fact.
And what if, for example, you had that same dream 40 times before, but you don't remember those instances? If I'm not mistaken, we cant recall most of our dreams.
But even if this has happened exactly as you describe, it's would only point towards an ability to sense crucial moments, like death, in another persons life. There a lots of atheists who believe in various "supernatural" powers or the paranormal. Maybe there really is something of the kind, where some small percentage of all these events are not just constructs of our mind.
But what makes something supernatural? If it is beyond our scientific knowledge at this point, does that make it supernatural? If, for example, extra sensory perception does exist, but it not within anyone's control and it's very unreliable, I would simply consider it unknown by science, not supernatural.
@ThePragmatic
Yes, that makes sense. I am also skeptical about the whole dream thing myself. I am only using it as an example. I realize that it has happened many times. Another example I can think of (but I know it doesn't mean anything) is at least a couple hundred of times, I have thought about a particular episode of a tv show, only to turn on the tv afterwards and realize that the exact same episode is being aired on tv. I am totally sure that it is a coincidence, but the thing is people always try to look for the supernatural in whatever they can. My point to them is, even if someone was able to predict every single outcome in professional sports, or win every single lottery, it does not mean that it is a supernatural ability.
@pork222
Good question you have. but I think you have a false premise. Let me explain.
The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by science. The concept that most people think of when thinking of God is metaphysical. Science only operates in physical reality, yet relies on presumed metaphysics to operate.
The best you can get from science is evidence.
@miarcleman12
Super = above, or beyond.
Natural = That which is detectable by one or more of the five (known) human senses, and is explainable within the context of man's knowledge of his physical world.
Seems to me man's knowledge is an ever-evolving phenomena. Are we to first argue that our current knowledge has hit a wall, with no hope for further evolution, in order to make a case for the supernatural? This has been the ages-old dodge men use to shill their chosen belief systems.
It comes down to cause and effect, and man's intolerably impatient curiosity to resolve them in any immediate manner. This bodes well for people who would control whole cultures by foisting gods, demons and wizards upon them. People are gullible. History has proven that with a frequency to make anyone dizzy.
You dreams might be a haunting anomaly that knowledge, yet to be grasped, can explain. Don't get hasty and start assigning causes from your imagination. I won't deny your reality, but I will deny your suggested source within the supernatural. It might very well be a naturally occurring phenomena providing you with certain information you cannot otherwise identify the source of. We don't know at this time-space continuum and I doubt there's any revelation on the matter soon to come; at least I don't think it's on my 2017 calendar.
And, as for proving religion...huh? Is that even a valid thought?