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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Hawk Flint
"..they were told not to eat from a specific tree, but they did it anyway. Their bodies became tainted and subject to sin and death as a result. Their bodies had "fallen."
I think it was Carl Sagan who pointed out the interesting parallel between this myth and evolution. Supposedly we are being punished for eating the fruit that gave us knowledge of goodness and evil. As part of that punishment women suffer pain in childbirth. The thing that causes problems in childbirth is our huge heads, especially the frontal part, which happens to contain the areas associated with shame and guilt and awareness of self.
This is not to say that I believe god caused us grow big heads to punish us for eating an apple. I think it's more likely that some highly intelligent Egyptian or Babylonian saw the connections between childbirth problems and head size, and between certain types of head injuries and aberrant behavior. But it is interesting that the Eden story can be read as an allegory of evolution.
That...is very interesting!
@Hawk Flint
All I have to say to that is "HORSESHIT"!!!!
You live your life in fear and you justify it with a bunch of religious babble that is inane, unproven, and certainly illogical. That is a symptom of insanity.
No, you live your life in fear. You didn't MENTION the term "confidence" until I used it.
@ Hawk Flint
"Sorry for the wait. Today's been crazy for me."
There is no need to apologize for that. Daily life always takes precedence. I will reply as soon as daily life gives me the opportunity.
@ Hawk Flint
(I numbered my questions for convenience)
- "The bible played a significant part of my coming to God, but it was my fear of God that brought me to Him. This fear, I believe, was put into my heart by God to lead me to God."
My initial reaction to this is "that's horrible!". It's not intended as provocative, but merely an honest reaction.
#A1: Could you explain that further, what about God was it you feared?
- "One of my relatives encountered three old people on the beach once, and received a message that helped her. The old people definitely couldn't know what was going on with her unless they were "stalkers." "
#A2: How does one know that the perceived message had anything to do with God?
Notice that I use the word "perceived".
- "Another relative of mine was in need of help, and he was praying to God, but he was listening too. That listening gave him results, as his insides "felt as if they were sucked out"(that's not an exact quote from him but it's close enough). This is someone who welcomed some sortof evil spirit into him, and while he was praying he saw a light, and then he was "vacuumed." The spirit is no longer in him."
#A3: How is it possible to know that there was an actual evil spirit in him?
#A4: In the experience where he felt like he was "vacuumed" out, how could it be known that is was connected to god of the bible?
- "There was an oppressive spirit in me half a year ago, and it is no longer in me, though I think it still messes with me. The first relative mentioned saw it in me (and she reads people's minds and sees spirits and demons), and I felt it when it was angered at me and my relatives for figuring out it's identity. I went to a room and told it to leave in the name of Jesus Christ, and I left the room shaking even though all I did was sit!"
Many questions pop up in my head when I read this.
#A5: How do you know you *actually* had an "oppressive spirit" in you?
#A6: Is it possible to distinguish the perceived experience from misconception, misinterpretation?
- "The last 5% is doubt mostly. I doubt to much. I have thought (sometimes) that everything I believe in might be the product of aliens (and with high-tech technology someone could walk on water)."
Although I personally find aliens more plausible then the Biblical God, I don't believe that anything like that would be responsible for the stories in the Bible. But you are right in that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
- "We could be crazy and/or scitzophretic. All of it could be lies and/or coincidence"
As for lies and being crazy: To say that one have had an internal experience, would not be to lie when it was actually perceived. However, what that experience actually was, and the interpretation of that experience could very well be conscious as well as unconscious lying to oneself.
There are many people who claim to be able to see and communicate with spirits, see auras, and so on. Some dishonestly lie about this, while some seem to sincerely believe in their claims, but even though many have tried, no one have been able to prove their abilities.
#A7: If I say I can see your aura, how could you prove it or disprove it?
#A8: Is it possible that when people are surrounded by other people who really believes something, like for example ghosts, that they influence each other? Is it possible that it could even become peer pressure?
EDITED TO ADD:
I don't want to put pressure on you to answer every question, not even one question if you don't feel comfortable to do so. If we are too far off topic, we could start a new topic and continue there. Or if you prefer, continue with private messages.
"My initial reaction to this is "that's horrible!". It's not intended as provocative, but merely an honest reaction."
"#A1: Could you explain that further, what about God was it you feared?"
Going to hell. I was doing something that I knew was wrong, yet I still did it. Imagine the zeal produced in me by the realization that there was a way out! The fear of God was awful, beyond terrifying, but it was discipline, not hate. In my darkest moments, in fear and hopelessness, God chastened me, but He did not leave me there. He rose me up, in a love without compare, He broke me, crushed me underfoot. Tore me to pieces, scattered me apart. Then He took the broken pieces, and put them back together, healing my brokenness. Alas, recently I've been consumed by a vain glory as well as pride.
"#2: How does one know that the perceived message had anything to do with God?
Notice that I use the word "perceived"."
They said "God wants you to know," so, either they were telling the truth, or (%5 doubt) They were stalkers.
"#A3: How is it possible to know that there was an actual evil spirit in him?"
It's not. Except, he has been completely changed since then. In fact, he turned his life around. Unless he's lying, or it was a transcended human or alien (%5 doubt).
"#A4: In the experience where he felt like he was "vacuumed" out, how could it be known that is was connected to god of the bible?"
He saw a light, and then was vacuumed. Here's da five percent again: What if it was satan masquerading (I don't believe that it was)? What if it was transcended humans or aliens? Hallucination? Lies? I don't believe these doubts, but they are there nonetheless.
"Many questions pop up in my head when I read this."
"#A5: How do you know you *actually* had an "oppressive spirit" in you?"
Hmmm. Maybe it was a mental illness (look! %5 doubt Lol) and maybe I was just insane. My relative saw it in me, so unless she's lying (%5 doubt!), and she doesn't lie usually, I was (1) Insane (%5 you guessed it) or (2) (where's da %5? That's right!) mentally ill (though I'm already out of it).
"#A6: Is it possible to distinguish the perceived experience from misconception, misinterpretation?"
Possibly. I've described some possible ways above.
"There are many people who claim to be able to see and communicate with spirits, see auras, and so on. Some dishonestly lie about this, while some seem to sincerely believe in their claims, but even though many have tried, no one have been able to prove their abilities."
"#A7: If I say I can see your aura, how could you prove it or disprove it?"
I guess not, but she reads minds. No lie. Sometimes people go to ask her something, and she answers before they can ask. And one time, someone went to tell her a inappropriate joke, and she told him that he was wrong for thinking that joke. She wouldn't tell me what it was though.
"#A8: Is it possible that when people are surrounded by other people who really believes something, like for example ghosts, that they influence each other? Is it possible that it could even become peer pressure?"
Yes. But in my case, that didn't happen.
"EDITED TO ADD:
I don't want to put pressure on you to answer every question, not even one question if you don't feel comfortable to do so. If we are too far off topic, we could start a new topic and continue there. Or if you prefer, continue with private messages."
I don't have pressure on me don't worry. It's become harder to be on the forums recently. I like talking, I have no problem with it, but we are getting to far off topic. New topic or private messaging, it doesn't matter.
[Edited due to clearer thinking]
@ Hawk Flint
Okay. :)
Hawk Flint,
"Did God cause the Big Bang?" By now you have collected our various opinions and then some. Mine was posted on 08/27/2016 17:56. The point of my Great Green Spider analogy is that to us God is about as credible as the Great Green Spider is to you. (The fact that God also comes with a holy book actually detracts from his credibility since that book is full of errors.) If you look at it in that light you might understand why we might regard your question as rather odd. Nobody can really prove that the Great Green Spider didn't create the universe, being that we are not fully appraised of its magical powers, but that's hardly a reason to become a believer! When you are talking "God" to us, it comes out as the "Great Green Spider" at our end. The burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who claim that the Great Green Spider exists, even as it is on the shoulders of those who claim that God exists. No doubt you find the whole idea of the Great Green Spider absurd. For exactly the same reasons we find the whole idea of God to be absurd.
Keep in mind that when you use miracles to "validate" the Bible, you are "validating" the Bible whether it is RIGHT or WRONG! Mixing miracles and science is like removing a few links from an anchor chain. The fact that the vast majority of the links remain tightly connected will not prevent the anchor from being lost! In the end, a serious search for truth about the physical nature of our world and its history always comes down to good evidence and good reasoning. There is no escape.
Now that you have our opinions, what is your course here? You mission is completed, right? Will you start a new topic on this forum?
Well, Hawk Flint, you have strayed way away from your original Post. Remember? You asked if god created the big bang.
So now we are involved with previous big bangs, and if jesus walked on water.
The members here proved 1) that there was no need for a god for the big bang to occur, and 2) and there is nothing to prove a god.
When you interject the bible, what you get is proof of the fallacies of the bible. Which you tried to answer for with nothing but the fact that you believe in a god,...no logic...no proof.
You even tried to excuse the fact that the bible states that god made plants before he makes the sun. You claimed that god doesn't have the laws of physics like that was going to wash.
Well, we know for a fact that earth came from the sun, so the plants could not have been created before the sun.
So are you ready to end this thread and move on? Or are you going to keep giving lame excuses to explain what we all know isn't true.
Bottomline....the answer to your question is an emphatic "NO". God didn't create the big bang.
NEXT!!!!!
"The fact that God also comes with a holy book actually detracts from his credibility since that book is full of errors."
I've yet to see an error In it.
"So are you ready to end this thread and move on?"
Definitely.
Hawk Flint,
Perhaps you don't understand what an error is? That's not intended as a low grade insult. How you define error is crucial to whether you will ever find one. I have a book, more like an encyclopedia, by Gleason Archer that defends the Bible against almost any conceivable error. Yet, it fails because his procedure is flawed. In short, he has defined error out of existence.
Can you imagine some verse in the Bible that would prompt you to say "My goodness! This is an error!" Could you give us two or three such examples?
If you begin with the idea that God wrote the book, then no matter how bad the error is you will find some rationalization for it. The proper approach is to begin such a study with nothing on the table. You then draw the most logical conclusions. Offhand, I can't think of any book with more errors than the Bible, but you won't find a single one of them if you believe they cannot exist!
Hawk Flint,
"...God could alter the rules of nature if He wanted to, or defy them outright."
So if a god wanted us to know that he exists he would be sure to inform us, because it would be quite easy. Instead, god leaves it to you to decide which one of hundreds of religions (written by men) is actually true. And rather than give evidence of himself that you can then compare with the written word, he makes attempts to cover up his own existence so you don't know, all the while telling you that you must believe.
The more you talk about your god, the less likely it seems that he exists.
Greensnake - "Can you imagine some verse in the Bible that would prompt you to say "My goodness! This is an error!" Could you give us two or three such examples?"
That is an excellent suggestion. Hawk Flint, could you try doing that?
"Can you imagine some verse in the Bible that would prompt you to say "My goodness! This is an error!" Could you give us two or three such examples?"
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, then went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5) "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)
There's one. I can't find more. "My goodness! This is an error!"
Hawk Flint,
Sounds like a play on words! Okay, I get the cute joke! I did have serious doubts about you contradicting your former statement about knowing of no errors in the Bible.
Actually, you have put your finger on one of the many contradictions in the Bible. The usual "solution" is to combine the accounts in one scenario. Maybe Judas hung himself over a cliff and the rope, scraping against a sharp rock, broke. Thus, Judas fulfilled the other account when he hit the ground. (Actually, he would just be fearfully flattened.)
Unfortunately, sound reasoning does not allow scenarios to be combined willy nilly! What gives us the right to assume that both authors gave incomplete accounts when, for all the world, each appears to be giving one and only one account? Isn't that re-writing the Bible to scratch a prejudice? There are instances when two accounts might reasonably be combined. A good rule is this: Cover up one of the accounts, say Acts 1:18, and ask yourself the key question. If you did not know about the covered up passage, would you reasonably deduce its circumstances? For instance, if Acts 1:18 said that Judas was found hanging from a tree with several knives in him, we would have at least some good reasons for combining the accounts. Now, cover up the other passage and ask the same question.
Unless you have given up objective reasoning altogether, you cannot start with the idea that there is no contradiction. If you are testing the Bible to see if it is God's book, you cannot begin by assuming that God wrote the book which, therefore, would have no errors! You start with no prior assumptions, nothing on the table, and then apply the tested principles of reasoning to reach the BEST conclusion. Certainty is not required--and not even possible.
An objective analysis shows that the Bible is chock full of errors, historical errors, failed prophecies, objectionable morality, gross scientific errors, all afloat in a sea of contradictions which even reach the whole-book level.
Did you know that there are, outside the Bible, still other ancient accounts as to how Judas died? Funny, that all this venom should be poured on Judas who made it possible for Jesus to fulfill his mission. No betrayal, no trip to the cross. No salvation. Right?
Thus, you have provided a clear contradiction by any reasonable standard. Neither account can reasonably be extended to take in the other, so their face value contradiction must be treated as real. If new evidence turns up, we will be happy to review the case.
Those who believe that the Bible is perfect and without a single error have a lot in common with American flat-earthers (a group of Bible-believers who are even more literal in their interpretation!). Both groups have a marvelous ability to ignore a whole mountain of evidence!
How can this be? With respect to Bible-believers, several possible causes have occurred to me:
1) The person is insane or incompetent.
2) The person has never seriously read the Bible and blindly accepts group doctrines.
3) The person can't emotionally face the possibility of error and totally blots it out of his or her mind. It must .....be right and don't confuse me with the facts! ...The ultimate denier.
4) The person is familiar with the "problem passages" but has defined Bible error out of existence! It is a subtle error and that's what Norman Geisler and Gleason Archer have effectively done in their encyclopedias. Both, especially Archer, do try to develop some rules for interpretation. Unfortunately, the set-up they arrive at does make it easy to sweep those errors under the rug.
??) Any others?
Hawk Flint, I suspect that you are somewhere between 3) and 4).
"Sounds like a play on words! Okay, I get the cute joke!"
Lol I meant no disrespect. I like jokes.
"I did have serious doubts about you contradicting your former statement about knowing of no errors in the Bible."
I contradicted nothing. I remembered something that I'd forgotten.
"Did you know that there are, outside the Bible, still other ancient accounts as to how Judas died?"
No.
"Those who believe that the Bible is perfect and without a single error have a lot in common with American flat-earthers (a group of Bible-believers who are even more literal in their interpretation!). Both groups have a marvelous ability to ignore a whole mountain of evidence!"
I never, I repeat, NEVER, said the bible was infallible.
"4) The person is familiar with the "problem passages" but has defined Bible error out of existence! It is a subtle error and that's what Norman Geisler and Gleason Archer have effectively done in their encyclopedias. Both, especially Archer, do try to develop some rules for interpretation. Unfortunately, the set-up they arrive at does make it easy to sweep those errors under the rug."
"Hawk Flint, I suspect that you are somewhere between 3) and 4)."
How about (5)? I knew about the errors, but the fault for the errors I found fall on the humans that wrote it. Never, and I mean NEVER, have I said that the Bible was "infallible." I understand what you and all Christians need to understand: The bible may have God's Words in it, but it is a historical recording. The errors I found do not contradict God's character, but they are merely human mistakes. Such as Judas's death, or how many chariots Solomon had.
Hawk Flint,
Enjoyed the joke!
Not a "5." The list doesn't apply! (Sorry! You have to be a flat-out hundred percenter on denying Bible errors to make the list!) Well, that puts everything in a different perspective. Critical questions do arise, but that's stuff for another thread another day. Should you wish to read a modern translation with plenty of notes reflecting the current perspective of serious Bible scholars, in which a lot of insights have been developed, you might get "The New Oxford Annotated Bible: New Revised Standard Version With The Apocrypha" (Fully Revised Fourth Edition). It's an ecumenical study Bible. It's a solid translation that sticks fairly close to the ancient word structure. (The other route is to dump the ancient word structure and try to capture the precise meaning in modern English. "The New English Bible" is an example of the latter translation strategy. Every translation strategy involves trade-offs.) You may or may not agree with the NOAB's notes and comments, but it will certainly give you a peek into the world of Bible scholarship. You will learn about the problems they wrestle with even as you review 200 years worth of discovery salted here and there in the notes and essays.
Hawk Flint - "The first relative mentioned saw it in me (and she reads people's minds and sees spirits and demons)..."
LOL
Nothing for my absolutely sarcastic telling of my life as a Rune Mage?
Sarcastic?
......take away from that what you will............
Ok.
Nor my soul sarcastic telling of life as a Runge?
No form telling of my life as a nag?
Not for my casting of my age
Nothing form your as an age?
Nothing for my sore lasange?
Not for my lute alas a Mage
Nothing for my sore lasange
No form can go as Rage?
No i soar as a Mage?
Noooo lisa Run
Not of my age
sore lung
sars Run
Ah, there we have the hidden message.
Run, he's got SARS!
Damnit, Prag. You distracted me in the middle of a crucial rune readi......... Oh shit. ALPHA CENTARI IS GONNA-*EARTH IS ENGULFED IN A SUPERNOVA"
What are you two talking about?
Sorry. We're just joking around. :)
I got no problem with that, I just don't get it.
There are ways to test these supernatural claims, but it is something the believers tend not to do.
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