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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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I think that what you said si very true. A lot of Christians don't know much about Christianity. Even growing up I would argue with those same people. But 1) just because someone says they are Christian doesn't mean they are. And 2) that's the very reason why I am here - because I do.
Sorry for the delay.
@JOC - I said I'm only interested in facts that can be scientifically proven, not that a fact can only be one if it can be scientifically proven. I'm happy to rephrase - if Urban Spurgeon can present facts that can be proven. English is not my first language but Rarburn's reply above is what I had in mind when I asked the OP to provide facts. Funny how Urban Spurgeon offered to answer questions and debate but now he is not responding to our posts. Let's see if he comes back.
So you do agree that some facts can be derived without scientific evidence?
Im back lol
And I would like to make a public statement, just for clarification, that I don't know who JoC is. So please do not confuse my thoughts with his in this thread.
JoC you keep saying that atheists don't know the "real" bible. First of all, you can't have it both ways. You can't take parts of the bible literally and also just take parts and interpret them any fucking way you want.
For example. I can interpret the bible like this.
"In the beginning....". Really means "From this point on everything written in the bibl, is just for entertainment purposes and in no way reflects or can be attributed to reality. The authors are not responsible for the content.
That is what you do whenever anyone points out scripture that proves that the bible is nonsense. It is a practice of intellectual dishonesty at the very least.
JoC is correct, you don't understand the true meaning of the bible. I used to be blind to the text like you.Christianity is largely about believing in what you cannot see & not seeking signs to prove Christ is with us, but finding the Holy Spirit through faith.I did. From this moment on your mind would be opened & you would have a better understanding. Try challenging yourself & having an open mind, it may save you on judgement day when all, will be revealed to you & you will succom to Christ as it is written
So which is the "true" meaning of the bible...is it present in one of the 3000 odd sects of christianity?
Are you the "chosen one" that understands more than us poor mortals?
So an omnipotent being "god" cant write/influence a book that says anything clearly? How is that?
Why does "god's Word" need interpretation? Surely the passages about killing, raping, slavery are very clear?
A little correction here the council of Trent was in 1543 not the 300`s as you quoted. You don`t know church history or it`s significance that it has had on the broader population.
Ye AG/billy/keith,
you are quite right, my notes tonight are garbled. I should not proofread after a damn good cabernet.
And yes I do know church history and its utter reprehensible effect on the morals and society it spawned.
"you don't understand the true meaning of the bible. I used to be blind to the text like you.Christianity is largely about believing in what you cannot see"
>>Well then you're obviously wrong, as that is precisely how most biblical apologists come across to me, when they blather on about how they can "interpret" what it "means", which more often than not means precisely the opposite of what it says. As indeed JoC's post claimed, when he said atheists know how to read what it says but not what it means, as if it's quite common for the written word to have an esoteric meaning that no objective reading of the text can fathom.
"but finding the Holy Spirit through faith."
>>Since faith enables belief in literally anything, I'm always aghast when anyone can't see how utterly useless it is for establishing the validity or veracity of any claim. I try not believe anything on faith, but then I care whether what I believe is true, but couldn't care less whether what is true is something I would want to believe.
" From this moment on your mind would be opened & you would have a better understanding."
>>Nonsense, it astonishes me that theists and religious apologists try to claim they use faith AND have an open mind. An open mind means you approach all claims and ideas without bias, even those you don't like. How exactly does closing your mind to all criticisms of a belief by using faith produce an open mind?
"Try challenging yourself & having an open mind,"
>>Try it yourself, you're the one who is using the bias of blind faith to maintain belief in a deity you admit you don't look for evidence for, nor test in any critical way.
"it may save you on judgement day when all, will be revealed to you & you will succumb to Christ as it is written"
Unlikely, in fact given how many deities there are, and how many versions of yours humans have created, you're as likely to "succumb" as I am, that is if you're determined to believe something based on the discredited idiocy of Pasquale's wager.
JoC is correct, you don't understand the true meaning of the bible. I used to be blind to the text like you.Christianity is largely about believing in what you cannot see & not seeking signs to prove Christ is with us, but finding the Holy Spirit through faith.I did. From this moment on your mind would be opened & you would have a better understanding. Try challenging yourself & having an open mind, it may save you on judgement day when all, will be revealed to you & you will succom to Christ as it is written
Faith: "Christianity is largely about believing in what you cannot see"
Yes. It's just like a Ponzi scheme. Christianity is the biggest con in history.
"Christianity is largely about believing in what you cannot see & not seeking signs to prove Christ is with us, "
How is this open minded exactly? Do you believe in everything you can't see? How do you decide which things you cannot see exist and which things don't?
Just like the advertisements on television. If you weren't open-minded enough to buy things with no evidence that they actually work the entire economy would fall apart around us. Thank you for being so easily fooled and keeping our corporatocracy ticking over, without you advertisers might actually have to tell the truth to sell their products. That could only lead to absolute chaos.
mykcob4,
"From this point on everything written in the bibl, is just for entertainment purposes and in no way reflects or can be attributed to reality."
Did you know that's exactly what the Bible says?
2 Maccabees 15:38 -39 (CEB) If the story was told effectively, this is what I wanted. But if it was told in a poor and mediocre fashion, this was the best I could do. 39 Just as it is harmful to drink wine or water alone while wine mixed with water is delightful and produces joy, so also may the writing of this story delight the ears of those who encounter this work.
The end."
I agree with you. No one can open the book and say, “I think this is literal. I think this one is true.” That would just be chaos.
However, I’d like to point out that the Bible isn’t a book but a collection of books. To say, how do we interpret the Bible, is like saying how do we interpret the Library. The question doesn’t make sense.
The answer would be, it depends what genre of the book you’re reading. Is it a newspaper? A history book? A book on poetry? Epic? Science textbook book? Etc.
It would be foolish if you took a piece of poetry and after reading it conclude that the author knew nothing about the Big Bang theory (Genesis reference). Or taking a historical document about the atrocities committed in world war 2 and looking at it as a “how to live your life” book (Judges, Samuel and Kings).
To understand what the Bible actually says and asserts, you at least need to know what genre you’re reading.
Remember the Bible isn’t a book but a collection of several books.
You seem to be implying that the errant and vague and contradictory nature of the bible lend credence to it's claims? I don't find these facts a compelling indication it is divinely inspired either, quite the opposite I'd say. You're also making a fallacious comparison with books that only claim human origin, these quote demonstrably can't be analogously compared with a book CLAIMED to be divinely inspired, and for fairly obvious reasons. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it, by claiming it's the inspired word of an omnipotent and omniscient deity, but that it is fallible because humans wrote it. We can use Occam;s razor here, and a deity isn't needed in order to rationally explain why the bible contains errancy and contradictions. Or why it conversely might contain some truths, and profundity.
@Urban Spurgeon: "ASK A CHRISTIAN (respectful debate and questions welcomed"
Urban Spurgeon's lack of response to our questions and comments speaks for itself. He/she/it is just another Muslim-Christian drive-by blowhard. So much for respect.
@Algebe
Yep. And it's such a shame. I really wanted to hear the justification for (a) Original Sin that justifies (b)The Atonement that justifies (c) Eternal Damnation if you don't believe a, b and c, atheism being THE unpardonable Sin.
It all just seems so...well...UNNECESSARY to me. Why couldn't He just get us right the first time? He's had Original Sin, The Great Flood and The Atonement- anyone else and that would be three strikes, you're out, pick up your bat and ball and fuck off home, go on, git, we dont want you, you're useless - surely?
Christ! Imagine asking Him around to fix an appliance? We already know how useless He is with air-conditioning: climate change. But a poor workman always blames his tools, hey?
Christianity is based upon believing in what we can't see, blessed are those whose have not seen but believed & wicked are those who seek a sign. I dare say that some non believers on here would claim that you have seen a ghost or been haunted in the past.But can you prove it.?
Yeah, I don't believe that nonsense either.
Its a brilliant long con...cant see it, cant touch it, but, if you say the magic words and really wish hard and believe, when you are dead you get the payoff...more lucrative than real estate sales and just as dishonest.
There may not be a sucker born every minute but there sure is a sucker born INTO it every minute!
Yeah, it's the perfect con, in that most of the victims never realize they were conned.
@Faith
"I dare say that some non believers on here would claim that you have seen a ghost or been haunted in the past..."
Yes indeed. And many others on here would say " Prove it! Show me the evidence!" See how that works?
Hi all! (This forum format is a little odd to me, but I liked the topic so I'll have faith I'm doing this right :)
"Christianity is based upon believing in what we can't see." My question is why does it matter? Gravity doesn't require I believe, so why would any other aspect of the universe? (If you say god is outside the universe, it will be division by zero to me. God can't be outside the universe because if he were, then we've defined our universe wrong. If god exists inside the universe, then he is a natural part of it.)
What is it about faith that impresses god so much? And how is clinging to religion an expression of faith? When Peter walked on water, what concept was he clinging to for support? For when he began to cling, then he sank.
All men are sinners and no work can change that, but faith in Jesus is required for redemption, so it would seem lack of believing then is the sin. Why would that be?
And how do we make ourselves believe something that we don't believe? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god. So upon hearing, we should either believe or not. So it's just a litmus test: if you hear and believe, go to the right; if you hear and not believe, go to the left. But if god knows our hearts, then why is that necessary?
"By the fruits of the tree ye shall know them." Faith then is the evidence of the salvation and fruits (works) are the evidence of faith (because faith without works is dead), but evidence for whom? God knows all, so he doesn't need any evidence. You know yourself, so you don't need it either. So it can only be for bragging rights, right?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If it's a gift, then I can't earn it. If I didn't earn it, then I can't brag about it.
But the bible also says "to work out your salvation with fear and trembling", meaning you can never be sure because then you'd be cocksure. How is that not contradictory? On one hand, we must have faith, but on the other, we can never be too sure.
Predestination (and variants) is mentioned ungodly amounts of times in the bible, so what of the concept of free will? Jesus said I can't make one hair black or grey and he was right. I can't control my dna nor my environment and according to what's written in the lamb's book of life, which existed before the foundation of the world, I have no say in salvation. The righteousness of all men is as of filthy rags and none come to the light lest their deeds be revealed, so the light must first go to them. Jesus said he ministered to who the father gave him. It's abundantly plain in the bible that god must make the first move. So how can anyone choose who he serves?
Any choice I think I make is a function of how I'm put together. I can't help it that blue is my favorite color.
I'm not sure who this was directed to but I would like to take a crack at it lol But I'm not sure which part you would want me to answer first. Could you please give me a point of reference? Becuase it seems there area a lot of themes here and I would love to address them all.
Urban : A father tortures and murders his own son because the neighbors kids misbehave. Why is that admirable?
chimp3,
The fairy tale says that Yahweh beats the ones that he loves. So the greater the beating the more he loves you. And when he kills you it's because he wants you to come bunk with him.
Hebrews 9:22
Your comments make no sense. How can you claim Agnosticism and then become a Christian. Do you not know what it means to be agnostic? Do you perhaps mean you were confused and then became a Christian?
Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. A = without and Gnosis = knowledge. An agnostic is a person who understands that there is no knowledge of God or gods. If you understand this "How do you become a Christian." Or are you just an Agnostic Christian who believes in the faith because even though there is no evidence "Gnosis" you choose to believe because it feels right.
Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge
Atheism is a statement about belief
You can be an agnostic Christian or an agnostic atheist. Perhaps you could clarify what you are talking about. If you are an agnostic christian..... WHY? You fully admit that the God you worship is completely unknowable? It does not make much sense. If you think you are a Christian now, how did you go from a completely unknowable God to one that is both knowable and personal who created the universe? How do you KNOW this?
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