Hi y'all
My name is Gin, and i'm an atheis in a biggest muslim country (Can you guess which country?)
English is obviously not my native language, so, pardon my grammar or spelling mistake.
Might've need some work on that
I'm always excited to discover another active atheist forum.
I joined several forums a while back. But i think most of them are no longer around.
Kinda bummed me out. Since i always learned A LOT from the active members
The reason i like joining atheist forums is to learn.
I want to learn how to answer and how to deal with theist "Arguments".
(Since there's whole bunch of them here, tons of crazy ones too)
Usually, i'm just a silent reader on an active debate.
Arguing with english could took me quite a while to write.
Secondly, i like being able to talk freely with fellow atheist member
It's pretty hard to have any meaningful conversation when "Allah" is in every sentence
"Why aren't you wearing mask?"
"Allah will never let the virus harm the people who always pray"
Anyway, looking forward to hang with y'all
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@Freaky Gin
Welcome from Sunny South Australia, where it is winter. It was 4 C this morning, which is considered cold.
I think I can say without fear of contradiction that your English is superior to most apologist Christians we get here, and English is their first language.
You live in a country in which many sentences begin or end with "Inshallah or "Bismillah {ir-rahman -ir-rahim}"?
Perhaps not Malaysia, Indonesia or Turkey (?) Do they kill apostates or just put them in prison in your country?
One of the Gulf states? Can't think of which one.
Anyway, jump in, most of us don't bite,although there are a couple who smell faintly of bananas.
@cranky47
Thanks for the warm (4 degrees) welcome
Indonesian actually..
Kill? Maybe not
Put in prison? Hell yes!
About 4 years ago, there's a woman who asked "Why the mosque top speaker is louder than usual?"
She asked her neighbour to "please tell the mosque to turn it down"
Needless to say, her neighbours called the police, build a "blasphemy" case against her
And the judge simply found her guilty. and pass the 18 months sentence on 2018
Fortunately, the case gone viral.
Long story short, the judge got arrested for corruption.
Even dinner with a hot chick is pretty depressing.
If i try to start a small talk about a movie or TV series
"It's interesting, now they make a good show from the antagonist points of view, like Maleficent, Dracula, the drug lord Pablo Escobar, even a drug dealer making meth"
Hot chick : "Masha Allah... It's the sign of the end of the world!"
So, on a scale 1 to 10. How crazy that is for you?
Being an atheist in this country is definitely a big NO.
Since asian culture encourage us to get married at young age
Telling your date that you're an atheist is a deal breaker.
@Freaky Gin
"So, on a scale 1 to 10. How crazy that is for you?"
Once you realise business is amoral in principle, it seems very normal.
I wouldn't have picked Indonesia. However seeing it as a bit more severe than Malaysia sounds about right. IE Malaysia has religious police, 2 years in prison for apostates, prison if a muslim is seen eating or drinking in public during Ramadan .
However, on my last visit, to Kualar Lumpur, the only times I saw hijab was on young school girls. Saw a burqa once(on a visitor from a gulf sate. The embarrassed concierge at my hotel saw my horrified expression and told me)
"Telling your date that you're an atheist is a deal breaker."
Perhaps take care in whom you tell that you are atheist. Also perhaps consider to moving to say Turkey or a western country.--and if you are asked a direct question lie.---
After all, the Quran tells believers they can lie and deceive others, especially kuffaar, for a range of reasons.
@Freaky Gin:
There are "Atheist Arguments?" WTF! Why haven't I heard about these? I have been an atheist for a long time and I have yet to find something to argue about. To what are you referring? Would you please list the top 10 atheist arguments for me? I really do not know what you are talking about. Ummm? You do know the meaning of the word "Atheist" don't you. Perhaps we need to start there. Atheists are people who do not believe in God or gods. Basically, as far as I can tell, they don't believe in them because there is no good evidence for them. That's about it. Do you have any good evidence? If you do we would all love to hear about it.
@Cognostic
I'm pretty sure i said Theist arguments up there...
Perhaps there's a bit of confusion here
Since i'm an atheist myself, i wouldn't dream of getting any good evidence from any religion
WELL FUCK ME. I should probably wear glasses when I read and stop looking at the little puppy.
...well,
At least one...
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Yea..... my grandad had one but the other eye was glass as well/.
@FreakyGin
"I'm pretty sure i said Theist arguments up there..."
As far as I'm aware there are only FIVE broad arguments for the existence of god****. Thomas Aquinas wrote them down as 'five proofs' in the thirteenth century. They are arguments, but not proofs.
For me, they fall under the broad category of sophistry. My position is that god cannot be argued into or out of existence. As far as
I'm aware, [so far] all claims about the existence of gods are are unfalsifiable. IE cannot be proved or disproved. Consequently, I demand prove, based on scientific method. For that reason,it tends to be a waste of time for me to argue with a believer.
In my experience, not only do believers never have proof, they are almost always intellectually dishonest. In my opinion,intellectual honestly must contain the implicit understanding that one may be wrong. I have yet to meet an apologist of any kind who will admit such a possibility.
.
It is my understanding, that with the exception of some mathematical proofs,that there are no absolute truths. ( I don't understand
that level of maths , so might be wrong in that understanding )
***********************************************************************************
The Quinque viæ (Latin "Five Ways") (sometimes called "five proofs") are five logical arguments regarding the existence of God summarized by the 13th-century Catholic philosopher and theologian St. Thomas Aquinas in his book Summa Theologica. They are:
"the argument from "first mover";
the argument from causation;
the argument from contingency;
the argument from degree;
the argument from final cause or ends ("teleological argument")."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)
You might also like to listen to the 1948 radio debate on the existence of God. Is is between Bertrand Russell and Frederic Copleston SK. It covers one argument , that of contingency or the teleological argument, aka intelligent design.
The link below is to an 18 minute edited version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz2GjKPbQds
THIS clip,at over an hour, is for the student, and walks you through the debate. I admit I have not heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc-UpQu2ofU
Hi freakygin!!! You did -YOU DID say theist argument... Cog don’t read soooo good ;)
Ummmm ya...allah protects islamic followers from the virus that he made in the first place. He must be pretty fricken bored.
Welcome.
Looking forward to your perspective.
:)
@cranky47
What i meant with theist "Arguments" are usually one of those fictional cute story
One of my co worker told me this..
One day, there's a man going to a barbershop
He got himself a haircut and a nice clean shave
The barber keep talking about how there's no God, since everything is a mess
There's a lot of sickness, chaos, why would God let that happen at all.
After the man got his haircut done
He stepped outside for a moment, and then said to the barber
"There is no barber in this town!"
"Why would you say that? I'm a barber, i gave you a haircut just a moment ago"
"If there's a barber, why so many people with messy hair out there?"
"Because they won't come to me, i would help them if they come to me"
Then the man smiled and nod "Exactly"
I'm ashamed to say, that fictional story left me speechless for a moment
I want to give a sound argument to point out how stupid trying to compare God to a simple barber
Of course, i tried to argue that the barber is just a man trying to make a living.
He simply can't give all of those dudes a free haircut
While God is an omnipotent being, God could make all those problem disappear in a heartbeat
But somehow, i felt that my answer didn't hit as hard as i would like
@Freaky
"Of course, i tried to argue that the barber is just a man trying to make a living."
The 'example' is another example of sophistry.
I think there's at least one logical fallacy in there. I'm not sure,I'm a weak philosopher..
A false dichotomy? By that I mean only two possibilities are given, when there could be many more. EG Who made this bloke the judge of what is a proper haircut? He's only offering an opinion. What about bald men? What about men who cut their own hair? (I do, because the barbers around here call themselves 'Men's Hairdressers' and charge far too much.) What if you think the only barber in town is incompetent as well as arrogant.? This is what I came up with without prior thought. I'm sure there are heaps which have not occurred to me
@cutepup
The barber shop is open. The barber is real. An appt may have had to been made.
God is hiding. The god hasn’t established its “existence”. It doesn’t “fix” shit when asked (unlike the barber who did his job). Does god even have a “job”?
@ thread
Another explanation could be the barber is an idiot who has opened up shop in a town full of Sikhs and gods don't really exist..
@cranky47
That's a good one!
@Whitefire13
I guess, God's job is to make sure his guy collects 10% of our money
Like a mob boss
Here's another one.
In a bus, an Atheist is sitting right next to a boy
The Atheist keep telling the boy, that God is racist, genocidal, unjust, and actually evil
He kept talking about How bad God is
Suddenly, the boy ask "Do you know why goat shit look like black berry?"
The atheist said "No. i dont"
"Do you know why horse shit, goat shit, rabbit shit, and cow shit looks different, even though they basically ate the same thing?"
"I'm sorry, can't say that i do"
"Well, you obviously don't know shit, how could you possibly know anything about God"
Well, at the time, i just laughed at the "Joke" my co worker made
Seems like, fictional story is quite effective to support another fictional story.
@Freakygin...
My religious upbringing involved shitloads of these types of “analogies”. They are meant to “simplify” and “dismiss” rational thought.
I’ve since responded back with questions... “I don’t get it (look puzzled) - are you saying the atheist is wrong about god?”
“...are you saying this kid knows “shit” and could explain the similarity to an adult as to why they all look the same?...”
“...are you comparing your holy book to shit?” (My favorite) ie info source
Edited to add: we had a theist awhile back tell us a 6 yr old “knew” what nothing was and used math - “it’s so simple, even a child gets it!” Is the underlying implication - and heaven forbid, you wouldn’t want to been “seen” as stupid or not “getting” it. It’s arrogance and laziness of thought; dismissive and rigid.
@Freaky
"Seems like, fictional story is quite effective to support another fictional story."
On the surface, yes, but not on reflection which is what counts. It's all too easy to be defeated in an argument with a verbally nimble opponent. A battle may be lost, but not the war. After all, you're here rather than in a mosque.
FreakyGin, in both of your stories, the atheists are painted with an interesting brush. In the first, the barber is making an assertion. In the second, s/he also makes assertions that sound as tho the god is real.
I find these characterizations of atheists improbable.
Were I in your shoes and was told these stories by a co-worker whose intent seemed to be to discredit atheism, I’d likely respond by using it as a teaching moment. I’d tell the co-worker that all atheism really consists of is not believing the many assertions of the existence of the many gods. I’ve never met an atheist who asserts that all gods don’t exist. How many do you know that say that?
Welcome to Atheist republic Freaky Gin.
Those are interesting stories, but they evade the central question almost every atheist has: "is there a god, and can you please prove it?"
I do not get into parables because they are designed to deliver just one answer. I will not even allow the conversation to go there, I just ask for the preacher to prove to me a god exists.
Because one can not discuss the topic of a god until it has been proven to exist.