https://crc-internet.org/our-doctrine/catholic-counter-reformation/whole...
I know I'm not suppose to and I know you all tell me to stop but I did it again. This lists so so many references and reports from witnesses, many of whom were mikes away from Fatima. Yes they all describe many things and these reports seem to have been taken 20-30 years after the fact but it's messing me up man. A whole village outside Fatima claims to have seen it too, a man and his family from another...please don't be angry with me I need help
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@ Mikhael
Yes, you need help. Put away your computer if you cant keep reading bullshit on Google or watching spurious poor quality videos on You Tube.
There are lies, damned lies and religion. Call your counseling service.
I know, I need to, but I just don't understand, I don't. How can you read so many accounts of people seeing something like this right when someone predicted somethin would happen and not freak out? And not just peasants but lawyers and doctors and writers too
I know you have some compulsion to drives you to do this to yourself. But if you feel the need to waste time looking shit like this up, why don't you try my suggestion below first:
You're citing an non-peer reviewed paper from an organization using the name crc-internet.org. Do you know anything about that organization? Do you know of any other claims they have made? Since you posted their material here, I'm guessing you have no idea who they are. If you are going to get so worked up over this shit, shouldn't you at least know something about your source?
How about you do some useful research for a change and write us a report on this organization?
All they're doing though is citing the witness reports. And they seem so amazing and frightening. Like a whole other village claimed to see Fatima, miles away. I can't find any contemporary reference for it, infant find any newspapers about it, it's first quoted in the fifties but how could they get a whole village to go along with that lie if it wasnt true ?
@Mikhael
So you have nothing to report? You didn't discover anything suspicious about your source? Did you even try?
I mean they are obviously a traditional Catholic website, and their primary source is the collection of reports made by a priest obsessed with Fatima compiled 25 years after the fact. Yes thus does set off my bullshit meter, I just don't trust said meter
I find it odd that this prolific writer who supposedly saw the miracle that day never wrote anyone about it, and the witness accounts were published years after his death. I also kbow that simimair solar phenomena was observed in the area around the same time so it's possible witnesses were claiming those visions as the Fatima miracle, rewriting the dates as the years went by. That's possible isn't it?
At first glance it appears that way; did you look any deeper?
No...
@Mikhael
I really don't want to spoil the surprise. But I'll try to give you a little help; that organization is highly associated with someone named: Georges de Nantes.
...ah. ok. Nationalist cult, that's....ew
Well, on one hand, what worried me most were not their own articles but the quotes and testimony they were taking from witnesses in the book...but it is a reminder how crazy devout Catholics are and to what lengths they will go to promote their own agenda
It's a sectarian drift (the nice way to say cult) spun off the Catholic church. They promoted conspiracy theories about how "the Jews" sabotaged the Shroud of Turin so it would look like a medieval fake when it was tested. Endless conspiracy theories about the Fatima incident involving secret plots from the Jews and Freemasons this time. Predicted that 75% of the world's population would die in the year 1983. When it didn't come to pass they said it would be 1985. When that didn't happen they changed it to 2000.
They also made dozens of extremely controversial claims about the nature and structure of the Catholic church which I feel unqualified to comment on.
Their only serious association with the Catholic church is they got essentially kicked out of it.
----------------------------------
I wouldn't recommend taking anything written on their website seriously.
Like I said, it's nothing on this site that gets me, I know all that extra stuff is bull, it's just the only place where I have found long wuoated from De Mencchis book on fstima where he interciewed witnesses
Mikhael:
I and others here do not suffer from this problem.
You need to understand a basic rule:
Just because it is written or said, does not make it true.
Since you suffer from an ability to separate fact from myth I recommend you become HIGHLY skeptical of anything religion related.
How do you do this? Simple. Assume everything you hear about anything religion related is FALSE until PROVEN true. Not eye witness accounts, not a few doctors or books or papers written on 1 or 2 sites, assume all of that is false until proven true.
How do you know what is true in this world in relation to religious claims? Well that is easy, it would be worldwide news that would blanket all the headlines of every major news organization. Trump would get jealous that he was basically forgotten. We would be talking about it non stop here, it would be so obvious none of us would miss it. Quite frankly, something like this would reshape the entire world. Most religions would collapse, etc.
Now note, that this has never happened before in recorded human history. Going back 10,000 years. What makes you think you will discover something that 50+ billion people missed in the last 10,000 years? Answer is, this many people over this long did not miss something in relation to the god ideas.
I can search right now and in .2 seconds find several sites that say they have "proof" that the earth is flat. Yet I go there and it is all words, no actual evidence I could test for myself.
Then I can just look at a lunar eclipse (happens all the time, look it up on the web for next one in your area.) Or climb a building at sunset on a west facing coast and see earth curvature myself with my own eyes.
If I wanted more proof I could buy a plane ticket that flies over the pacific and stare out the window the whole time.
The exact same is true for the religion claims you can stumble across on the dark recesses of the net. Just because it is written does not make it true.
Again, what you need to do until you better develop your "bullshit detector" is just assume any and all religious claims are bullshit. And if they really bother you, investigate them yourself. If you really really want to believe some website, over powerful evidence contrary, go find out yourself. Go to the body of water in question yourself, hang out and watch the millions of visitors, see if you notice anything "divine" happening, that cannot be easily debunked.
Or if you can not or do not want to do all that, just take our word for it, its all bullshit. Trust me. These forums, collectively we have 100's and 100's of years collectively of looking for any possible actual evidence for any god idea, and still absolute zero actual evidence.
It all adds up too: you are wasting brain cells chasing all this down. You already have the answer, all the god myths are exactly that, human told myths, with no basis in reality. They are stories that turned into lies that people tell each other. Usually for gain of the story teller.
I'll try. I'm kind of numb right now honestly, but I will try to take solace in this, in the people like you guys who can read all this and still be ok
@ Mikhael
Because we recognise nonsense when we see it. Nyar gave you good advice which you ignored, Logic gave you good advice which, oh yes, you ignored.
You have had suggestion after suggestion that you stop looking at these crap sites and even just not touching your computer until you have completed your therapy. All of which you have ignored.
When does empathy with your plight stop? That's right, when you do not even try to take simple steps to help yourself.
I will say it. I guess others will be suspicious; you are beginning to look like a catholic troll trying to insert catholic websites to the readership here.
Won't work because our bullshit detectors actually work.
Merry christmas...oh sorry you are catholic, happy Mithras' Birthday.
@shouts
I apologize. I know entirely how this looks and all I can offer is my sincerest, most honest truth
I have presented nothing to you that is a lie. I've lost 14 pounds in 6 weeks because I can't eat. I have a drawing on my table I've barwkt been able to work on because I can't enjoy anything anymore. My search history is nothing but my obsessions. I sobbed through most of my day at work today. Every time I look at my wife I feel my heart break because I remember my suicide plan the last time I was catholic, because if I was going to go to hell anyway it might as well be sooner than later.
I am not asking for pity or sympathy and I understand that I have abused your good will here and demanded a lot of emotional labor from you all.
I'm not a troll, I'm someone very scared and in a lot of pain, and I know I've been wxtwrnalizong it too much on you guys. I do appreciate your advice even if my brain won't let me take it.
I'm going to stop posting. I would like to come back when things are better. I hope you can at least believe me when I say I have meant none of you any ill
@ Mikhael
It seems to me that you need a lot more than a therapist visit in the future.
Please call the 24 hour helpline that I am sure must exist in your area. There is "beyond Blue" , Samaritans, lots of other SECULAR help out there.
If you have to, and I suggest you do anyway, get yourself to the nearest AandE and ask for help there.
You need to be professionally evaluated and treated. We cannot do it here, on a forum where we don't even know where or which continent you live.
This is serious Mikhael, get yourself evaluated today.
If you were my neighbour I would drive you myself.
Get better Mikhael.
And when in doubt, just assume its BS. That is the much safer position to take.
I just feel like no one else is seeing this. Debubkers never address the claims that others saw Fatima and it makes me paranoid that they aren't taking it seriously !
@Mikhael Re: "Debubkers never address the claims that others saw Fatima and it makes me paranoid that they aren't taking it seriously !"
Any WHY, exactly, should anybody at all be taking such a thing seriously in the first place? So a bunch of people saw some sort of natural phenomenon several decades ago. And then twenty or thirty years AFTER the event, a bunch of other people were interviewed, and they claimed to have witnessed the same event. But (for whatever reason) they didn't bother telling anybody about it at the time the event happened. So what? Hell, ask me what I did only twenty or thirty MINUTES ago, and I might be hard pressed to tell you with any detail. Any particular day twenty or thirty YEARS ago?... *chuckle*... Shit... Good luck with that. Chill, dude. You are making WAAAAAAAAY more out of this nonsense than it even remotely deserves.
It feels so real to me, tin. It just feels so real. Maybe I'm actually for real crazy, idk, I am seeing a psych after the holidays, promise.
I just assume it has to be true. But like. I suppose sun gazing would probably increase after news of this spread. Sun miracles did become fashionable even to this day. If people in the area started looking to the sun for miracles then suppose they would see shit, which after 25 years could morph into "oh yeah I totally saw it on that day"
And the poet who saw it, the only reference I can find is in that fucking book, published after his death. Strange, I would figure a poet would have written a lot about it
I just don't understand why no one else sees this
Dear Mikhael
If you cannot see the at the website you are quoting is a work of lies then you really do have a problem.
No one else sees what you are seeing because we have an adult perspective and life experience. There is a plethora of sites that will have you believe anything, some well written, some like this one so badly written you have to be as cresulous as a two year old to take them seriously.
If you continue the path that you are one, then know what? Go back to church, stop reading anything except the missal,say the rosary every waking minute and live your life in fear.
If you want to be an adult, have adult things, be happy as you can be and not LIVE IN FEAR, then stop going to shit websites that pander to the credulous and the fantasist.
You say you got banned from a group for being a 'pity troll'? Think about it. You have been given tools to learn. Reject them, as you seem to be and that is exactly what you are.
All sorts of things get reported years after the fact. People want them to be true. Memory is faulty, one tends to remember things as one wants them to have been. (And plenty of people outrightly make stuff up to fit in)
Every religion, every cult, every superstition (think bigfoot) has people who claim they experienced certain events... but you need more evidence before you take it seriously
On the other hand, if people want to believe this stuff, that's their business. I have no particular reason to try to argue them out of it.
I know memory and eye witness testimony is notoriously shit, but just the sheer scale of thisbisbwhat has me so worked up and upset
I'm really sorry guys. I know finished to seem so crazy and annoying. I don't know what to do anymore
@Mikhael
Have you read the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry's article on Fatima?
Thank you, I have , I have read literally everything Inman find on it. It would be 10000% ok and fine and make total sense if it wasn't for the fact that none of these debubkers cite the fact that others outside of Fatima also saw this. I mean yes I know there is the theory of a localized weather phenomena like ice crystals and such but that can't be it because most sources day thousands of people in the crowd saw nothing.
Except in the priests book, he claims the opposite, that he has found no one who says they did not see the sun miracle. And of he's lying about that then he could be lying about the outside witnesses too.
Why am I this fucking/crazy/
Wait, so a Catholic priest, travels though the countryside of a Catholic nation, interviewing Catholic peasants, about a supposed Catholic miracle, decades after the event; and he says he can't find anyone who didn't witness it?
That claim is more ludicrous than the original Fatima claims! You are an extremely credulous person.
Maybe I am. I can't imagine what this has to look like to you guys. I can't describe the fear and terror that this church has instilled in me, that has reared up this winter. It's crushing and all consuming, I just wish I could look at this like you can
@ Mikhael ……
I've been following your thread for while now..... and whereas I cannot be of direct help in the matter of Fatima ….. I can give you examples of other occasions where people seem to "spontaneously" collude with obviously false stories....
For example look at the Angel/s of Mons story...…
"In 1914, as German troops advanced through Belgium, they met at Mons with the British Expeditionary Force. Ill-prepared and vastly outnumbered, the British troops were forced to retreat, with little hope of saving the lives of those at the Front. It was in these circumstances that many of the wounded and dying soldiers, brought back from the Western Front, reported having been rescued by strange angelic forms in the sky that protected them from massacre."
"“The officer suddenly came up to us in a state of great anxiety and asked us if we had seen anything startling, he then pointed to the sky, I could see quite clearly in mid-air a strange light and I could distinctly see three shapes, the one in the centre having what looked like outspread wings.”
Testimony of Lance Corporal, British Expeditionary Force, 1915.
https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/angel-of-mons/
"In one action during the long retreat, an understrength British battalion, about to be overrun by masses of German infantry, became aware of a shadowy army fighting beside them, an army of bowmen of the days of Agincourt, five centuries gone. These phantom men-at-arms cried aloud to St. George, and their swift arrows darkened the sky. A great voice was heard to thunder over the din of battle, “Array, Array!” German prisoners taken in the action said they were bewildered that their British opponents had reverted to wearing armor and shooting arrows."
"In the night of the 26th, the third day of the retreat west through Belgium, weary British soldiers saw tall, unearthly figures materialize in the gloom above the German lines. They were winged like angels, and as they hovered in the gathering darkness, the Germans inexplicably halted and the British slipped away to safety. During the retreat, some soldiers swore that they had seen the face of the patron saint of England. A wounded Lancashire Fusilier asked a nurse for a picture or medal of Saint George because, he said, he had seen the saint leading the British troops at Vitry-le-Francois. A wounded gunner confirmed his story. He described the saint the same way the fusilier had—a tall, yellow-haired man on a white horse, wearing golden armor and wielding a sword. Other soldiers agreed that he looked just like his image on the gold sovereigns of the day."
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2015/12/01/world-war-i-miracle-the-ang...
Then again there is the tale of the White Cavalry ….
"At the focal point of the enemy's advance, at Bethune, the Germans concentrated on a slight rise beyond the town, yet the ground there was absolutely bare and none of our men were there; nevertheless, enemy machine guns and shells raked it from end to end with lead. As suddenly as it had started the enemy's fire ceased, and in the complete silence there rose a lark's thrilling song of thankfulness. The dense line of German troops which had started to move forward to their victory in mass formation, halted dead. As the British watched they saw it break! The Germans threw down everything they had and fled in frantic panic!
What Caused Such An Amazing Turn Of Events?"
"A senior German officer who was taken prisoner immediately afterwards gives this extraordinary explanation (taken from the account of the Staff Captain, 1st Corps Intelligence, 1st British Army Headquarters, 1916-18, who was present and himself took the statement):
The order had been given to advance in mass formation, and our troops were marching behind us singing their way to victory when Fritz, my lieutenant here, said, 'Herr Kapitan, just look at that open ground behind Bethune. There is a brigade of cavalry coming up through the smoke drifting across it! They must be mad, these Englishmen, to advance against such a force as ours in the open! I suppose they must be cavalry of one of their Colonial Forces, for look! They're all in white uniform and are mounted on white horses!'
"In spite of heavy shelling and concentrated machine-gun fire the white cavalry advanced, remorselessly as fate, like the incoming tide on a sandy beach. Then a great fear fell over me. I turned to flee; yes I, an officer of the Prussian Guard, fled panic stricken, and around me were hundreds of terrified men, whimpering like children, throwing away their weapons and accoutrements in order not to have their movements impeded ... all running. Their one desire was to get away from that advancing white cavalry; but above all from their awe-inspiring leader whose hair shone like a golden aureole."
http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/Miracles__Angels/38765/p3/
Now both these stories were actually written by professional writers but published in newspapers..... taken for genuine news reports by public and soldiers alike.... and supported by serving troops who came forward to confirm that they had been there and seen the events …… very much like the claims of those present at Fatima.
Also , did you notice how the estimated numbers of those present at Fatima kept mounting ……. this too is common with such fabricated stories...… those with a vested interest seem to think that added numbers means added veracity.... I seem to remember the original version of the Angel of Mons story only had two or three heavenly bowmen.... but by the time the actual origin of the story was exposed they had risen to a heavenly army led by the Arch Angel Michael …..
Hope this helps to put your mind at rest.
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