Discussion about why people still cling to their beliefs when there is an abundance of evidence to counter their beliefs.
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1. I wonder why people still believe that Jesus is white when he was born in the Middle East?
Jesus was white and so is Santa Claus
What if Jesus returned?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tciBru32oDU
Because a tenant of faith is to be able to look logic in the face and say "Nah".
I think Paul himself would agree with you. =)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen- Saint Paul (Hebrews 11:1)
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
-Adam Savage
Reality, reason, and truth are not in the vocabulary of a theist. In my local newspapwer, every Sat. there is a Rabbi, and a priest who answer peoples questions about faith, God, and religion. The "clergy" repeat over, and over again that "faith, and belief" do NOT include reality and reason...and, the new one today, said that "hope" is more valuable than truth. So, in other words, believe in a fairytale over evidence, and hoping that something is so, is more valuable than the TRUTH that it is not. Isn't that what we were taught about Santa Clauss, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny?? Like I said, theists are people that can't deal with reality, and must invent something to make themselves feel comfortable.
@Reality
"Reality, reason, and truth are not in the vocabulary of a theist"
Well I'm sure that you, being the devout theist and all, would be the most qualified to make such a claim as that those words or concepts aren't in our vocabularies....(sarcasm)
The arrogance of atheism is absolutely astounding. Not to mention the ignorance.
Hey, believer, you may want to read your own post. It's pretty humorous. Apparently you don't think it's appropriate for someone who identifies as atheist to behave in a certain way but it's perfectly acceptable for you, as a theist, to do so.
CyberLN
I did read my post. I didn't say anything about his behavior. And what did i do, as a theist, that i find unacceptable in atheists?
@Beliver
"The arrogance of atheism is absolutely astounding. Not to mention the ignorance."
If you actually do think that and you're not just saying it to provoke, I would first want to know what your definition of "Atheism" is.
I believe people are afraid of change. If they don't have their beliefs any more who is going to absolve them of their sins? No one or nothing. All they will have is themselves it blame their actions on. To them it is probably very disheartening that they have no one to blame for their actions but themselves
Another confusing matter is that if God created the universe why did he create all these planetary bodies that we have no use of?
God is mysterious :)
Ryan A. Like which?
Here's why: people don't like admitting they're wrong, even when they are.
“People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.”
― Terry Goodkind, Wizard's First Rule
Seriously, though, people aren't believing religious crap because of how well-evidenced it is. Evidence has nothing to do with their beliefs, evidence is completely immaterial to their beliefs. So, if there is no evidence for it, or even if ALL the evidence on the planet is against it, their belief will remain unaffected. The did not arrive at their belief through reason, and will defend it against all reason, and that should not greatly surprise us. It isn't called unreasonable because of how calculated it is, but rather the opposite...
Look closely folks. It is exactly this sort of, quite frankly daft, and ignorant blanket statement that illustrates perfectly the flawed and arrogant attitude of the average atheist.
You haven't even a modicum of understanding or knowledge of how i arrived at my beliefs, yet you say i did so without reason or evidence. You have no clue what i will and will not defend, or how i would do so, as a believer, yet you assert that i will defend my beliefs against all reason.
You think that you hold all truth, not only in physical matters but in metaphysical matters as well, when the truth is that empiricism as a means of discovering truth can only take one so far.
There is much folly on the side of believers. Most can't even defend a single aspect of what they believe. They are weak, feeble minded and dependent on others to tell them what to do and what to believe. This is why they continually come on here and are summarily ripped to shreds by the atheist community.
But there is folly on the side of atheism as well, and this comment by travis hedgelin, and many others like it, reveal an underlying ignorance, one that is a deadly threat to any debate, of the other side's position which will only cause continual ridicule and perpetuate the animosity displayed by the two sides here represented.
"...the truth is that empiricism as a means of discovering truth can only take one so far."
I'll simply quote this, because it is all I need to quote to make my case. You see, empiricism, imperfect as it is, is the sole means of validating whether something even appears to be true or not. I don't need to know your personal story, touching as I am sure it is, because you believe something that has no supporting evidence outside your personal faith in it. You criticize me for my general statement which you agree applies well to "most" believers, yet take offense because you don't think it could or can apply to you. Hell, you even seem to think that belief without evidence is justified, somehow, for "reasons". So, let me reiterate to the original point:
"...why people still cling to their beliefs when there is an abundance of evidence to counter their beliefs?"
Because their beliefs are not based on evidence, evidence is immaterial to their beliefs, that is it. It is quite hard to reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into. Trying to reason with the unreasonable is like administering medicine to the dead. It is a self-contradictory proposition.
"You see, empiricism, imperfect as it is, is the sole means of validating whether something even appears to be true or not."
Empirically validate this sentence.
Better yet, give me empirical evidence of love. I wont believe that its real until you show me demonstrable, repeatable, empirical proof of it.
I fully reject your blanket statement because it doesn't apply to me. I do not believe without evidence, nor do i throw out reason to hold to my beliefs. I don't have to.
Whats more, your statement seems to imply that one CANNOT arrive at belief through reason or evidence, this i disaagree with. Not only that, i did not take offense, as once more, the statement doesnt apply to me.
"i did not take offense, as once more, the statement doesnt apply to me."
Then why do you write with such anger and contempt? You constantly spit on Atheists calling them daft, ignorant, arrogant, and you use multiple other demeaning words for Atheists.
The spite filled and contemptuous way you write, I would not expect any meaningful conversation or any nice behaviour back. But that is of course only the Atheists fault?
You are actually acting like the cliché of an angry Theist, but keep blaming the Atheists for your own deplorable behaviour.
Deplorable behaviour? Because i speak with passion about these things? You can't see my facial expressions nor hear the tone of my voice and yet you ascribe spite and insults to my words?
You misunderstand mr. pragmatic. I've never labeled any atheist daft or ignorant or anything worse, what i label as such are the statements they make and the positions they hold, things which do not, in themselves, constitute or make up a person.
I commented elsewhere to someone who said i wont gain any converts here with how i speak and do you know what my answer was? I asked him what made him think that that was my object?
You see mr pragmatic, you do not convert someone by arguing with them. You do so by getting to know them, by letting them get to know you and by reflecting the love and light of Christ which lives within.
I can't do that on here. I would get kicked off of the forums if all i did was act all saccherine and try and proselytize, which is what atheists seem to think Christians are supposed to do or should do.
Instead my aim is to pique curiosity, to incite deep thought and to challenge the idea that atheists have of believers.
None of you knows me personally. None of you can see that I'm actually really easy to get along with and that i really love all kinds of people and i respect everyone i come in contact with. If you knew me personally you'd probably find that we have alot in common, and I'm fairly certain we could carry an intelligent conversation about many topics.
You mistake my bluntness and directness for anger against this or that atheist personally. But that isnt the case, i can't have personal feelings for or or against someone until i KNOW them personally, do you see what I'm saying? Im not angry at anyone or spiteful of anything, and if my words come across that way then I'm sorry. Keep in mind that whatever i communicate is severely limited by the medium we're using. Its not like talking in person. You shouldn't be so quick to judge my character and attitude with so small a sample size as some comments on a forum, i know i don't.
@Believer
I thought I would answer in the other thread (Do you even know your "holy word"?) were we are also having a discussion, to bring both conversations together:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/comment/25923
"Empirically validate this sentence."
The mere fact you read it is empirical proof that it exists. Further, through conversation and a control study, we could easily verify that empiricism is a superior method to verifying truth than any other. This is the reason that most of the advancement of technology occurred AFTER the adoption of empiricism as a method, and not before.
"Better yet, give me empirical evidence of love. I wont believe that its real until you show me demonstrable, repeatable, empirical proof of it."
Love, being a mental state, actually does have corollary effect on neurology and behavior. It is not nearly as hard to empirically show as you might think.
"I fully reject your blanket statement because it doesn't apply to me."
Really?
"I do not believe without evidence, nor do i throw out reason to hold to my beliefs."
Alright, then. In that case it should be no problem for you to provide empirical evidence that your god does, in fact, exist.
" I don't have to."
I am actually fairly sure you do, unless you have some ACTUAL empirical evidence for your god.
"Whats more, your statement seems to imply that one CANNOT arrive at belief through reason or evidence, this i disaagree with."
Actually, if you track it back, it is a response to a specific kind of belief.
"Not only that, i did not take offense, as once more, the statement doesnt apply to me."
Well, I would tell you to prove it, but I seriously doubt you have ANY empirical evidence for your religious beliefs beyond the normal pointing to things that could exist without your god, and talking about experiences and feelings which could just as easily be used to diagnose one as delusional.
Demonic possessions. How do people still think this is a thing and not some sort of psychotic episode someone is going through and needs medical attention?
Also, if demons wanted to bring down the fall of man through this kind of thing, why not possess WORLD LEADERS!? Possess Presidents Obama and Putin and start WWIII. That would cripple the humans!
When 6 grown men have to struggle to contain an 8 year old girl who weighs 60 pounds soaking wet because she's having some sort of psychotic episode, then people will stop believing in demonic possesions.
In other words I have better luck winning the lottery. I just found the whole thing absurd. Why do these things only happen to Mr./Ms. Smith and not anyone high profile? It seemed to me that either demons are just unambitious trolls or brain dead morons. The justifications my mother gave me when I posed the question made me laugh and raised even MORE questions (like if Yahweh is really so power, then how is demonic possession even a possibility?), which became a major crack in my theist world view when examined critically.
Believer-I welcome you arrogance and demeaning way of describing" atheists I don't think you go far enough humiliating these heathen atheists. Your only trying to save their soles(shoe) from hell. You have God on your side so keep up the dialogue . Never give in no matter how much evidence and science and logic they try to fool you with. Science is ok as far as it goes but God is greater than science. God is greater than Great God is mysterious and that's why it is hard fro non believers to understand. Only when you experience Christ can you begin to realize the majesty of God. God Bless
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Public information announcement:
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"fred,k" is actually the infamous troll of the Atheist Republic forum.
Generally referred to as "Kenny", has been banned many times under different names.
Previously known aliases include: "Kenny Schweiger", "Kenny", "myself", "alleycat", "richardd", "Christopher", "marken", "punkin", "amber", "Simon".
Claims to be an atheist. But he has a fondness for using "sarcasm", even though no one ever gets his sarcasm and he has been told this many times, he keeps posting such deceiving comments.
He seems obsessed with religions, creationists and the stupidity of Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, Joel Osteen, Ted Cruz, Sean Hannity, Donald Trump, Vanna White, Sarah Palin, etc.
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