I think the title is itself self-explanatory. I don't want half-hearted, convoluted answers. Only say YES or NO, and if you want to argue, enjoy yourself.
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Divine command, If god commands it, it is good. Killing babies, raping women, disease, fire from the sky, slaughter of the innocence, the creation of hell, all moral acts of a loving and caring god because his nature is love and he can do no wrong.
@Cognostic,
The absence of answers from them is telling something...
They all swear their god is a God of Love! Horshit! Excuse me I sneezed! I like this 77 character talking about Morality. How in the fk can any Christian get Moral values from the god of the Bible. It's a JOKE. They have to implement divine command theory to justify the homicides. "Well it is not evil for God to kill, rape, maim, destroy because, after all, he is the creator. He does it all out of love and our little minds are incapable of understanding the mind of God. Horshit! Excuse me, I sneezed again.
Why does god need proxy's to do his evil?
Fallen,
"Why does god need proxy's to do his evil?"
Gods such as Yahweh and Allah need people's willing hands to do everything. Yahweh might have created the universe in six days and flooded the entire world but he couldn't defeat iron chariots made by men.
Wouldn't it be something when a person did something really bad per the fairy tale rules a pile of rocks would suddenly appear and stone the person to death or a magic sword would appear and chop off a guy's hand?
Or the entire earth flooded killing everyone except those God warned.
@AJ777
See now I know you are trolling for responses.
Even the most fanatical religious zealot knows not to bring up great flood story and noah's ark. This stacked on top of the: not being able to understand: that if god is all knowing, that means there is no such thing as free will as fate/luck/chance would all have to be predetermined.
Whoops I guess I fed the troll by responding to him, oh well. If you want to respond with why the Noah/flood story is actually true, I will still respond as debating you on that, even if you are just trolling, as debating about noah's story counts as fun to me.
Even my highly religious, goes to church almost daily, (every day that it is open,) grandmother would admit that the noah story is just a story "meant to teach, not to be taken literally."
Only Ken Ham tries to make it work, and fails spectacularly in trying. (He spent 100 million dollars trying on this "ark" and that is with modern equipment!) And lots of christian clergy (rightfully so) get very anxious when someone starts bringing up Ken Ham and his "theories."
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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And how long did it take Ken Ham to get his "ark facade" built as compared to only three men in the Bible?
rmfr
AJ777,
"Or the entire earth flooded killing everyone except those God warned."
Do you know why Jonah wasn't killed in the flood? He spent the time in a whale's mouth.
Because he can't assume his shortcomings?
Misery loves company. You feel less evil when you have company. Lesson No. 1 in the BiG Book of the Christian Faith.
Religion thrives on misery, and since it is likely that the common denominator for people are not their best qualities, you end up with today and ancient religions.
Well, now that we have that figured out, I have to go kill my daughter. I promised god I would kill the first thing that walked out of the door this evening when I got home.
If you could imagine the worst possible god, you would arrive pretty close to the biblical god and his divine instructions. Is this the best our ancestors could come up with? Possibly god became what the priests wanted him to, and his instructions what suited their agenda.
Why do we convict murderers that claim god instructed them to do it? They have the same amount of proof that any religion has for their instructions and beliefs. Guess its that strength in numbers thing again, that is basically the only difference...still can lead to murder though.
Yes. I believe what God commands should be done without question. The rules have been provided, and I intend to play by the rules (to the best that I can).
HumbleThinker,
"Yes. I believe what God commands should be done without question."
Really? You are going to be one busy bee = http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tolerance/dt13_13-15.... 5 pictures
@Diotrephes
Thanks for the Comic Strip!
Look, I'm not saying you haven't read the Bible, it's possible that you have read more than me. But many of your comments (and other's) use arguments that clearly demonstrate a misunderstanding of the entire faith. Using examples from the Old Testament to "prove" God is wicked or that His commands are unjust is a misuse of the context of the book in its' entirety. If you want to have a better understanding of what we believe, you need to look at the New Testament, which provides the "New Law", according to the teachings of Christ. In the OT, the law is "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth". In the NT the law changes to "turn the other cheek". These supersede the Laws in the OT. Also, unlike some protestant or other Christian groups, we put a heavy emphasis on living traditions, not strictly the Bible.
@HumbleThinker
So uh, god can say to a bunch of people spend a great deal of effort writing down and making copies of my work to distribute amongst yourselves (even though back then most people could not read and write, certainly not to the level necessary) -for the old testament - and then, 100's of years later go, ya know what, I changed my mind, sorry about that, here is the new rules. Sorry for the confusion, in an already confusing area of "which version of god is the right one??" Here is the new one, the "old" testament is now superseded by the new one, sorry for my mistakes, (even though I supposedly know everything already.)
Oh also to make everything harder, I am also going to do the tower of babble and then not help you all with translations, I hope you guys get all my rules etc right, and nothing is lost in translation and later edits. Good luck guys!
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I did not say there is no value in the OT. On the contrary. The stories are some of the most fascinating I have ever read. The idea is these things happened (I know you’ll dispute this) but for a purpose. There is a spiritual lesson in every one of those stories. Great flood, Jonah and the Whale, the Plagues of Egypt. They are so deep and so beautiful I wish there was a way for me to show you that. Alas, I know we will never get past the argument that these things are unjust, and besides, I will admit I have neither the intellect nor the vocabulary to show you. Not even sure I know what I’m doing here. : /
Ps. If you take the premise that God is all knowing and the OT is divinely inspired, then to disagree with anything is simply that you’re missing the point. I learn more every day from people and priests that are far more educated on the matter than myself. As the more I earn and read the more convinced I am that it is true.
@HumbleThinker
The great flood and plagues of Egypt are: "deep and beautiful"? Not how I would describe those events if they actually happened. Instead it is lots of people supposedly dying sometimes awful deaths, (like plagues!) Simply for not following a mysterious mostly hidden "god's" commands.
Do you learn from anything you read here? Does everything you read here convince you that god and the OT/NT are true?
Does it ever bother you you have difficulty in vocabulary or as you said "intellect," to properly explain something as simple as the god concepts that are described by religion/bibles? Your vocabulary seems pretty good to me, I do not feel you are particularly dumb or of low intellect. I feel you can express yourself just fine, perhaps you are being overly humble in your own assessment of intelligence and vocabulary skills.
Ever wonder why god is so difficult to explain except for the "you just have to have faith!" line all religions use?
The "just have faith" line/argument is simply a: polite/fancy way of saying: suspend your disbelief, suspend the normal reality fact checking everyone uses for just about any decision any person makes, and just take my "word" for it that I am right.
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I understand why you would say this, from a secular point of view. The thing about Christians is they believe this life is nothing but a fleeting second compared to what is beyond. The goal is not to please ourselves in this life but be rewarded in the next. The examples I have are those who are willing to die rather than worship the false gods (or no gods as you would suggest) I am not afraid to die if it is in the name of Christ. Why do you value your life so much?
HumbleThinker,
"I am not afraid to die if it is in the name of Christ."
A magic number of believers MUST BE killed before Jesus returns. He insists on it. Since you are not afraid to die for him to return I suppose you can always volunteer. You could be the lucky one who brings about his return. It's been 2,000 years so you could be the one. Would you like to chance it?
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) = "9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."
@LogicFTW
Do you learn from anything you read here? Does everything you read here convince you that god and the OT/NT are true?
Yes I learn a lot. It forces me to go back and read certain things. I have even relayed a question I saw here for input from my priest. Also, most of what I read here actually strengthens my belief, because tbh I haven't seen much content that justifies putting aside this belief. Every time I hear an atheist quote the flood or the plagues or anything else and use that to convince me God isn't real, just shows me you don't have a good grasp on the point. I don't mean that offensively, but I have spoken to people who understand these things much more deeply than myself, and they have strong physical, metaphysical, philosophical arguments for all of these things. You are fooling yourself if you think most people "just have faith".
"Does it ever bother you you have difficulty in vocabulary or as you said "intellect,"
Very much so. I wish I had payed more attention in English class, or that my brain could retain information easier. Alas, neither of these things are true.
"to properly explain something as simple as the god concepts that are described by religion/bibles?"
This demonstrates you are either being intentionally disingenuous, or thoroughly ignorant. I hope its' the latter. Nothing is "simple". Learning 2+2 is difficult for toddlers. And the fact that there is so much divide on the significance of the Bible demonstrates without doubt that it is a very difficult book to understand. If it was simple, there would be no discussion. And the fact that it is the exact opposite of simple is what makes it so powerful and useful.
"The "just have faith" line/argument is simply a: polite/fancy way of saying: suspend your disbelief, suspend the normal reality fact checking everyone uses for just about any decision any person makes, and just take my "word" for it that I am right."
Let me ask you this. How do you know that we are made of electrons, protons, and neutrons? Have you ever seen one? Have you read every scholarly paper on the matter? Have you personally done scientific research and experiments that prove it? I'm positive you haven't. But you would still defend their existence, right? Because you have faith that the scientists that showed the evidence for them are correct. Every day you are putting faith into something, including that God doesn't exist. We don't say "suspend your belief", we say "I know I don't know a whole lot on this subject, but from what I have seen/experienced and those who know much more than me, say its' true. I might not know the justification for it, but I will put my faith on that its' true." You're a liar if you try to say you don't have faith.
@ HumbleThinker
Yes. When I took two or three, or a few, nuclear physics courses at UNM, I actually saw the results of other post-grad students nuclear experiments. Thus, yes, I KNOW protons, neutrons, and electrons exist. They have some kind of scanner (forget the technical name of it) that can actually "see" the atoms of an element, compound, substance. Actually it could not see the electrons because they orbit at tremendous velocities, but you could see their effect in the atomic shells they create. Here is and interesting factoid for you. How tall is the obelisk in Washington DC? About 169.294 meters. If you were to compact the electron shells of all the atoms in it until they were the size of the atomic nucleus, the Washington Monument would be about 2 meters tall. That is how huge the electron shells are.
Who has? I have read quite a huge number of them. Especially while in college, and now that I am working scientist, I have free access to the "pay fro access" science journal paper sites. Mostly for geology and volcanology. Have you read any?
I have not done any experiments, but have done the research and seen the results of others’ experiments live and in person.
Yes I shall because I know they exist. Do you?
In actuality, I have faith in nothing, not even other humans until they prove worthy of my trust, unless I can observe it with OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. And that is why I CANNOT and SHALL NEVER believe in your sky faerie or any religion. There is absolutely no facts, truth, logic, or ratioality in any religion. Religion is nothing more than a bunch of make-believe dumbo-jumbo lies where you theists just "let's play pretend that there is a god."
Anything I "believe" is backed by OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. I do not have faith in anything unless I can see the OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE and study and research it for myself to prove it actually is worthy of having my faith in believing it is true. My definition for faith is hugely different than your definition.
Your Definition for Faith: The belief in something that cannot be proven to be true.
My Definition for Faith: Something I have proven to be true.
How do you decide what is true? By reading an obsolete, irrelevant, barbaric, savage, offensive, and unsubstantiated, immoral Bronze and Iron Age religious text? That just does not make any sense to me.
The difference between you and I is that I have pratically been a scientist for literally over 50 years. Basically my entie life. Probably longer than you have been alive. And my being a scientist is thankfully due to my greatest hero of all: Mr. Spock. More specifically, the Mr. Spock as portrayed by Leonard Nimoy.
I remember something that I can no longer remember who said it, but it goes something like this (paraphrased): “If someone is capable of believing something that cannot be proven to be true, then they are capable of believing any lie.”
However, as my Fourth Commandment of Humanity states: “You shall respect the right of ALL persons to believe whatsoever they wish to believe; even if contradictory to your beliefs. You may discuss beliefs; however, forcing your beliefs onto others is condemnable.” And I shall fight to the death to defend your right to belief however you wish to believe. HOWEVER, do not expect me to respect your beliefs. And never demand that I should respect your beliefs. You ONLY have the RIGHT to belief whatever you wish.
rmfr
HumbleThinker,
"As the more I earn and read the more convinced I am that it is true."
Do you know what happens to the Sun at night? It is sleeping in its tent in the heavens.
Psalm 19:4 (CEV) = "Yet their message reaches all the earth, and it travels around the world. In the heavens a tent is set up for the sun."
Psalm 19:4 (CEV) = "Yet their message reaches all the earth, and it travels around the world. In the heavens a tent is set up for the sun."
Beautiful passage. Thanks for sharing : )
HumbleThinker,
"These supersede the Laws in the OT. Also, unlike some protestant or other Christian groups, we put a heavy emphasis on living traditions, not strictly the Bible."
Didn't the Jesus character say that the Moses Law is in effect until hell freezes over? Yes, he did say that. He added over two dozen new commandments to the old ones. You have to keep all of them.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 (NLV) = "So then, Christian brothers, keep a strong hold on what we have taught you by what we have said and by what we have written."
I think Jesus is going to roast you for a few minutes over the lake of fire.
HumbleThinker: "Using examples from the Old Testament to "prove" God is wicked or that His commands are unjust is a misuse of the context of the book in its' entirety."
And the Religious Absolutists are doing the same thing with their smiley-face, sugar-coated cherry-picking.
rmfr
Am I cherry-picking? I am doing my best not too. Although I will say every Atheist that has responded to my "perspective" with a cherry-picked, out of context line. So how do we proceed?
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