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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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I used to join my dad on his truck route on Saturdays, and we would always stop at a Loves truck stop in West Memphis, AR, and it was always packed. The bathrooms at this particular one were set up to accommodate 35 people each. The women's bathroom was always full with lines super long. If at any time more than ten women were waiting at once, five could go to the men's room. It was always empty because the truck drivers were always in a hurry to get back to the dispatch or the drop-off to get more hauls in. I never saw more than two men in it at once. I almost always ended up using a urinal while up to five women and/or teenage girls were in the stalls. It never bothered me, but it was strange at the time, because I had never been in a bathroom with anyone other than other men before. In any case, it was only weird for a second because after all, they're still just using a bathroom.
@JB
You did a double... no triple... quadruple? negative there in that sentence: "Is a woman in the wrong for not being uncomfortable naked in a shower with a man she doesn't know?"
I imagine what you are trying to ask is: a woman in the wrong for being uncomfortable naked in a shower with a man she does not know?
That woman is well within her rights to be uncomfortable. Just like she would be well within her rights to be uncomfortable to shower with a woman she does not know. Or even a woman she does know.
A woman would be within her rights to be uncomfortable in the shower with her husband after she just had naked sex with.
The women would be within her rights to be uncomfortable showering in a shower that has ever been seen by a person, including the people that built it. As crazy as that is, she is well within her rights to not use that shower, as it makes her uncomfortable. (Good luck finding a shower that has never been seen by people including the people that built it!)
My guess though is you asked that question really meaning: Is a woman allowed to be uncomfortable naked with a transgender woman in the shower with her, and then because she is uncomfortable with that idea, demand that no transgender woman can ever even enter a public open stall shower room that is already in use, because she's uncomfortable with it. ---Sounds pretty ridiculous that way doesn't it?----
No, most certainly not, you can not demand a right "because it makes you uncomfortable" that impinges on other people's rights. A women does have the right if it makes her uncomfortable to use open public shower rooms to: not use them. There are always other options.
Cmon JB, you are a cool guy right? I expected more. Step out of your emotional fear and think. What a stupid question.
There never was, or currently is any rule here in the US that obligates (forces) your daughter to shower at school with a transgender girl.
The LGBTQ community never ever expects such a rule/law either. Neither does any rational person, both the left and the right would be strongly against such a ridiculous rule/law.
Just like their is no laws or obligations for your daughter to shower with other girls at school.
There is no laws or obligations for your daughter to shower at school at all.
There is no laws or obligation to send your daughter to a particular school either.
However there are strong laws/rules in place that protect your daughter if she were to take a shower at school. Wonderful, gender and bias free laws.
If a girl or transgendered girl in any way makes your daughter uncomfortable by their actions (being pervy, or worse) in this time, that person is removed and action is taken commensurate to the severity of the wrong.
In no way does the lgbtq community want laws passed that give any girl, or transgendered girl, or otherwise, sudden free licence to make your daughter uncomfortable, let alone expose your daughter to worse.
And if, you just can not help yourself, and the thought of a transgendered girl may share a shower room with your daughter sends a cold chill down your spine, rest easy. That poor transgendered girl I guarantee you is absolutely TERRIFIED of the idea of public showers in her school. I guarantee you the chance that your daughter ends up in the schools open stall shower room to shower with a transgender girl is about the same as winning the powerball lottery jackpot. Rest easy, your fear will never come to pass.
Does your daughter's school even have a public stall free shower room? With zero private shower stalls? I highly doubt it. Does your daughter's school even have showers in the women's bathroom? Are they ever actually used? Can they only be used at the same exact time that a potential very brave transgendered girl wants to use it?
You are getting all worried about nothing. But through your speech and fear you make the very difficult life of a young transgender girl that much more difficult.
The answer, of course, is a cultural change. Unisex showers and restrooms whereby individuals have complete privacy. With no sex or gender, disignation would end the controversy, but of course, the religious nuts who are completely obsessed with sex will go bonkers.
"The answer, of course, is a cultural change. Unisex showers and restrooms whereby individuals have complete privacy. With no sex or gender, disignation would end the controversy, but of course, the religious nuts who are completely obsessed with sex will go bonkers."
I've thought this same thing so many times my friend. But could combining public bathrooms/showers make women more vulnerable to sexual assault?
mykcob4 did not suggest combing public bathrooms/showers. He suggested unisex showers and restrooms where individuals have complete privacy. Complete privacy would probably make women less vulnerable to sexual assault. (They would have their own locking door.)
Have you ever seen a unisex bathroom? No don't be scared, check it out. It is a nice, clean bathroom that is designed for use by one person, with a locking door. They are quite nice actually, I am not gender phobic, I use them all the time when one is free and I will not be using it for long.
Infact I am sure you have used a unisex bathroom before. Ever go to bathroom in a public place that had only one toilet? Ever use a portapotty? Yep. Unisex.
Correct LogicForTW. As a man that identifies as a man who is heterosexual by choice and biology, I have to say any chance I get to use a unisex bathroom I go for it. Men's rooms are just dirty....it's some kind of macho thing I guess, although I don't get it. Also, I don't like using the restroom with other people in there. Have you ever stood at a urinal when some fat bastard is taking a dump in a nearby stall? Man, it is nauseating!
There is sexual assault because there are sexual assaulters. Period.
"There never was, or currently is any rule here in the US that obligates (forces) your daughter to shower at school with a transgender girl."
Right. I understand that police are not going to come and arrest, or fine my daughter for not showering with a man. I don't think any reasonable person believes that. What I'm saying is that In many schools (like my daughters) you have to shower after PE class. It's required.
"If a girl or transgendered girl in any way makes your daughter uncomfortable by their actions (being pervy, or worse) in this time, that person is removed and action is taken commensurate to the severity of the wrong."
That's little consolation after the fact. Also, I don't think inappropriate behavior on the part of another student is required for her to feel justifiably uncomfortable.
"In no way does the lgbtq community want laws passed that give any girl, or transgendered girl, or otherwise, sudden free licence to make your daughter uncomfortable, let alone expose your daughter to worse."
Again, their male genitalia alone can do that.
"I guarantee you the chance that your daughter ends up in the schools open stall shower room to shower with a transgender girl is about the same as winning the powerball lottery jackpot. Rest easy, your fear will never come to pass."
But it's still worth having the conversation. My concern (not fear) is that we may be dismissing one groups rights to accommodate anothers.
"Does your daughter's school even have a public stall free shower room? With zero private shower stalls?"
Yes
"Does your daughter's school even have showers in the women's bathroom?"
Yes.
"Are they ever actually used? "
Yes.
"Can they only be used at the same exact time that a potential very brave transgendered girl wants to use it?"
That's a silly question.
"You are getting all worried about nothing. But through your speech and fear you make the very difficult life of a young transgender girl that much more difficult."
Sometimes uncomfortable conversations are necessary. Anyone who's life was made more difficult by my initial question needs to build some calluses. Also, stop saying I'm afraid. I'm not afraid.
Uncomfortable conversations? I'm not uncomfortable. Are you? Let's throw some additional questions into the mix:
What happens when the person she's showering next to is a lesbian? What if that lesbian is attracted to your daughter? What if she makes a pass at your daughter? Should this lesbian be banned from the shower as well? Should she be allowed to stay because she has a vagina instead of a penis? Should making passes be banned?
"I'm not uncomfortable. Are you? "
That was a response to the quoted text that suggested my question was making the lives of transgendered citizens difficult. To answer your question, no I'm not uncomfortable.
"What happens when the person she's showering next to is a lesbian?"
I don't think a lesbian generally poses the threat level that a man does.
"What if that lesbian is attracted to your daughter? "
I don't care. That's out of everyone's control.
"What if she makes a pass at your daughter? Should this lesbian be banned from the shower as well? Should she be allowed to stay because she has a vagina instead of a penis? Should making passes be banned?"
I suppose that depends on what "a pass" means.
Woah was not aware many schools require girls (or boys) to shower after gym. That sounds like a rights violation. Esp. considering its an open public shower room. I am familiar with at least 5 schools in my area and none of them have that rule. Perhaps you should work to get that rights violation of your daughter fixed. Esp. If it is a publicly funded school.
"That's little consolation after the fact."
You are right, that's the problem with all rules and laws, they can only deter. Unless we have a "Minority report" like system bad things are going to happen to people occasionally.
Male genitalia can be traumatizing to some, just like facial scarring burn marks etc. Are burn victims girls banned from girls public showers?
You do realize asking that question "men allowed in my girls bathroom?" Feeds the far right nutjobs that created the awful law in the first place? What if your daughter was transgender and has to deal with this crap every day? Even though the actual scenario you agree will almost never happen?
You stopped saying yes to gym class required? Different school option?
This particular "hard question" is not worth having a convo about. It hurts transgenders and is rediculous/silly you even agreed parts of it is.
This is true CyberLN
I've watched a couple seasons of orange is the new black and showers are not the safest place for straight women when some lesbians are around. It's assault no matter what sex is making passes. I'm not trying to compare your 13 year old gym class with woman prison but even as a straight girl in high school girls try hard not to bring attention to themselves while changing. And gym teachers are usually there to stop it.
An additional question to ponder in this discussion is when does someone's discomfort with something provide sufficient cause to ban it?
Please don't get the wrong impression. I'm 100% for trans rights. I just don't think this is as clean cut as many of my fellow progressives like to pretend it is. What I'm trying to get across here is that the feelings of transgendered citizens are not the only ones that matter in these scenarios.
Look at what happened when I simply asked that question. The first thing I heard back was an accusation of transphobia. I understand accusations like that a very fashionable way to communicate now, but come on.
Believe you me, your question is well understood, and it needs to be asked. Where do one person's rights end and another person's rights begin? It's never an easy question to answer. Most the time, it's based on circumstance, like who is involved. Personally, if my daughter had to shower with a trans-gendered girl, the only thing I could hope to do is educate her well enough for her to fully understand the situation. As far as safety, as much as I doubt anything would happen physically, every party involved must be prepared. Rape is not a light crime. It's more psychological than anything. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need for self-defense against such a travesty, but there is. Right now, that's all there is as an answer. Be prepared. Stay sharp. The bathroom is no different than the street at night. If someone aims to commit sexual assault, all you can do is defend yourself. A bathroom wouldn't be transformed from some safe zone to anything less safe if transgender girls were allowed to shower in them. Using a bathroom in public is already a calculated risk for everyone involved. No place is truly safe. So, if a penis is somehow more a threat than a predatory lesbian, I don't know what to tell you. If you're really that worried about it, buy your daughter a can of mace.
Well said. ....Agreed/aka liked.
http://advocatesforyouth.org/3rscurric/documents/3Rs_ALL_Lesson_Plans.pdf
My client yesterday is a christian and she was warning me about the awful truths they will be teaching our children. I asked her to send me the link and I'm happy to say its pretty great news. Its a long pdf file but the first pages talk about how by 2 nd grade kids will be able to identify many different types of families. Including the homosexual lifestyle. Its about communicating with each other about our differences. Very happy if this gets implemented :)
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