... because of his atheism he despised religion, and acted on it. That's how....he established "The League of the Militant Godless" as a step in that direction...
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Are you kidding me? Stalin was actually an ordained priest in his early years. In fact, Stalin allowed religion to continue and even thrive. He wasn't an atheist in any real sense.
If you know history, which obviously you don't, you'd understand that Marx wrote extensively about religions enslaving the populace. Communism was a movement against the corrupt capitalist and imperialist. Marx felt that capitalist governments use religion as a tool for mind control which he was entirely correct.
But atheism has nothing to do with politics. Atheism is not involved in any way like religion is and always has been. The fact is that atheist communist comprised less than 10% of the total. Although they rejected organized religious at a far higher percentage.
But since we are on the subject. PROVE YOUR FUCKING GOD EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
None of that refutes the fact that Stalin was an atheist who despised religion.
You guys say that it was a threat to his power, but he went far beyond anything necessary to establish his power or maintain it. There was no practical necessity to imprisoning millions in the Gulag system, and torturing and killing millions more.
The Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn exposed this in his "Gulag Archipelago" series of books back in the Seventies and Eighties. I am surprised it is so soon forgotten.
Whitewashing what atheists did to believers EVERY TIME that had enough political control of a government is not going to work.
And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?
Lenin and Trotsky didn't train as priests, and were actually the ones who led the revolution. And they were murderous thugs just like Stalin.
You misunderstand people when people say he despised religion. He didn't despise it's content or morality... it was more that he despised anything that was a potential threat to his power. The church had power he wanted it. In fact he quite liked religion, the totalitarian and dictatorial part of it. As you said, he trained as a priest.. meaning he knew how to manipulate the incredulity and servility of the people for power. After he got power he brought back Roman Orthodoxy but told them they had to answer to him first.
Back to your first point, stalin being an atheist had nothing to do with his regime. The source of Stalin's atrocities is his personal lust for power that makes him an outlier, not an "average" atheist (or "average" anything.)
Stalin trotted out to defend a religious worldview, totalitarianism with a dab of superstition, using religious dogma to do so and sided with the church. His agenda was was political in nature and desired power. Atheism is not a political Ideology nor is it a belief system. They were not fought in the name of 'the lack of belief in a deity'. They were often political ties with a religious worldview. The Church after all was the head of the government during these regimes and sided with them.
Stalin's made himself a God and his views just like a religion. They convinced their following by adapting a religious model. He sought to replace religion, not eliminate it. And they wanted to replace it with something that had all of the same bad qualities as religion. No atheist could enforce a religious model and still call themselves an atheist. They make a god of themselves: that's not atheism.
were not against the worship of the divine per se, but they considered themselves to have a preordained destiny or right to power that is evocative of divinity. This is not atheism based on a rational system of thinking. This is just one religion traded in for another. What do I mean by this, history shows he used the totalitarianism, servility and credulity of religion for power and crush opposition. He replicates it perfectly. The dogmatic ideology and obsessive nature and stigma around him, thats almost a religious regime in itself.
Therefore, his actions were not committed in the name of atheism, they didn't do all that because they thought there was no god or a lack of belief in a god, it's because they saw themselves as the top of the food chain, basically creating a religion about themselves. He did not commit his atrocities in the name of a atheistic dogma. They were bastards for other reasons.
Besides
Stalin's problem was not that he was an atheist, but that he was a totalitarian. "I don't believe on deities" (in which he never said outright) has nothing to do with totalitarianism/authoritarianism. An atheist can be anything. An atheist can be a stalinist for example, but it's not a direct mandatory for being an atheist. An atheist can be a tree hugger hippie. My point is, one cannot conclusively tell anything about a person who doesn't believe in god only that he doesn't believe in god.
Yes religion was a threat to his power, he undermined it and controlled it. Stalin allowed religion to continue and even thrive. His oppression of the Orthodox Church was simply to strip it of its power. Once he had neutralised the church, he gave it back its buildings and icons on condition it supported him in the future.
You say > "And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?"
I think you are missing the point here. Many of us atheist don't say he trained as a priest for the purpose that he was not an atheist, not necessarily, it is more the fact that this is where he learned how to manipulate people in order to create a totalitarian dictatorial system basically by hoarding the sheep, if you will. Like I said above... he mimicked religion perfectly. Stalinism was more like a religion than religion itself.
towerpiller:
Your argument is typical of the low-grade crap that we atheists have to put up with. Stalin killed in the name of his communist utopia and to secure his power base. That his paranoia lead to overkill doesn't change that fact one bit. He wasn't conducting a war in behalf of atheism. He wasn't out to murder every religious person he could find. He strongly encouraged atheism because the religious establishment was an arm of the czar and he had to destroy its claim to authority.
If you ever succeed in pulling your head out of the sand, you might realize that countries such as Sweden, Norway, and even Denmark are RUN BY ATHEISTS for the most part. They also happen to be some of the best places in the world to live in terms of low stress and basic freedoms.
Whether Stalin was an atheist or not is totally freaking irrelevant to this thread.
Where does it say that Stalin established this league? According to the article you cited, Stalin didn't do much directly, apart from settling a dispute over methodology. Near the end it says "Stalin ended the antireligious persecution."
Is this yet another attempt to blame all atheists for Stalin's crimes? Playing the Stalin Card is as bad as playing the Hitler card.
None of that refutes the fact that Stalin was an atheist who despised religion.
You guys say that it was a threat to his power, but he went far beyond anything necessary to establish his power or maintain it. There was no practical necessity to imprisoning millions in the Gulag system, and torturing and killing millions more.
The Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn exposed this in his "Gulag Archipelago" series of books back in the Seventies and Eighties. I am surprised it is so soon forgotten.
Whitewashing what atheists did to believers EVERY TIME that had enough political control of a government is not going to work.
And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?
Lenin and Trotsky didn't train as priests, and were actually the ones who led the revolution. And they were murderous thugs just like Stalin.
Stalin was an atheist. So what? I am an atheist and not a Stalinist. I am a libertarian. I have taken the non-agression pledge. How about you tower pillar? Will you take the non-agressilon pledge?
None of that refutes the fact that Stalin was an atheist who despised religion.
You guys say that it was a threat to his power, but he went far beyond anything necessary to establish his power or maintain it. There was no practical necessity to imprisoning millions in the Gulag system, and torturing and killing millions more.
The Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn exposed this in his "Gulag Archipelago" series of books back in the Seventies and Eighties. I am surprised it is so soon forgotten.
Whitewashing what atheists did to believers EVERY TIME that had enough political control of a government is not going to work.
And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?
Lenin and Trotsky didn't train as priests, and were actually the ones who led the revolution. And they were murderous thugs just like Stalin.
Are you kidding me? Let's assume that he was an atheist. What is the basis for asserting that atheism had anything to do with his politics and his purges?
Theists love to play the Stalin card. Atheists can easily point to scripture in the Abrahamic faiths and point out the blood thirsty nature of their god. Stalin is like a "neener neener keener" to a believer with nothing valid to say.
None of that refutes the fact that Stalin was an atheist who despised religion.
You guys say that it was a threat to his power, but he went far beyond anything necessary to establish his power or maintain it. There was no practical necessity to imprisoning millions in the Gulag system, and torturing and killing millions more.
The Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn exposed this in his "Gulag Archipelago" series of books back in the Seventies and Eighties. I am surprised it is so soon forgotten.
Whitewashing what atheists did to believers EVERY TIME that had enough political control of a government is not going to work.
And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?
Lenin and Trotsky didn't train as priests, and were actually the ones who led the revolution. And they were murderous thugs just like Stalin.
You misunderstand people when people say he despised religion. He didn't despise it's content or morality... it was more that he despised anything that was a potential threat to his power. The church had power he wanted it. In fact he quite liked religion, the totalitarian and dictatorial part of it. As you said, he trained as a priest.. meaning he knew how to manipulate the incredulity and servility of the people for power. After he got power he brought back Roman Orthodoxy but told them they had to answer to him first.
Back to your first point, stalin being an atheist had nothing to do with his regime. The source of Stalin's atrocities is his personal lust for power that makes him an outlier, not an "average" atheist (or "average" anything.)
Stalin trotted out to defend a religious worldview, totalitarianism with a dab of superstition, using religious dogma to do so and sided with the church. His agenda was was political in nature and desired power. Atheism is not a political Ideology nor is it a belief system. They were not fought in the name of 'the lack of belief in a deity'. They were often political ties with a religious worldview. The Church after all was the head of the government during these regimes and sided with them.
Stalin's made himself a God and his views just like a religion. They convinced their following by adapting a religious model. He sought to replace religion, not eliminate it. And they wanted to replace it with something that had all of the same bad qualities as religion. No atheist could enforce a religious model and still call themselves an atheist. They make a god of themselves: that's not atheism.
were not against the worship of the divine per se, but they considered themselves to have a preordained destiny or right to power that is evocative of divinity. This is not atheism based on a rational system of thinking. This is just one religion traded in for another. What do I mean by this, history shows he used the totalitarianism, servility and credulity of religion for power and crush opposition. He replicates it perfectly. The dogmatic ideology and obsessive nature and stigma around him, thats almost a religious regime in itself.
Therefore, his actions were not committed in the name of atheism, they didn't do all that because they thought there was no god or a lack of belief in a god, it's because they saw themselves as the top of the food chain, basically creating a religion about themselves. He did not commit his atrocities in the name of a atheistic dogma. They were bastards for other reasons.
Besides
Stalin's problem was not that he was an atheist, but that he was a totalitarian. "I don't believe on deities" (in which he never said outright) has nothing to do with totalitarianism/authoritarianism. An atheist can be anything. An atheist can be a stalinist for example, but it's not a direct mandatory for being an atheist. An atheist can be a tree hugger hippie. My point is, one cannot conclusively tell anything about a person who doesn't believe in god only that he doesn't believe in god.
Yes religion was a threat to his power, he undermined it and controlled it. Stalin allowed religion to continue and even thrive. His oppression of the Orthodox Church was simply to strip it of its power. Once he had neutralised the church, he gave it back its buildings and icons on condition it supported him in the future.
You say > "And people keep saying he trained as a Priest.
So what?"
I think you are missing the point here. Many of us atheist don't say he trained as a priest for the purpose that he was not an atheist, not necessarily, it is more the fact that this is where he learned how to manipulate people in order to create a totalitarian dictatorial system basically by hoarding the sheep, if you will. Like I said above... he mimicked religion perfectly. Stalinism was more like a religion than religion itself.
he hated religion
Me too. Religions ruin everything
Why are you spamming the forums with the same post 4 times (and this isn't an example of the double post bug; each of your posts is a rely to a different post, so you went out of your way to do this).
It's true tough none of the posts I replied to doesn't refute the fact Stalin was an atheist who despised religion.
Water is also wet. So what?
Whats your point ?
Me too. And Stalin had a beard and I have a beard. What are the odds. This is just awesome.
We have a troll. towerpiller is trolling. He wants to equate being an atheist with committing war crimes. That is not a fact and is actually a lie.
Stalin wasn't an atheist in the first place. He practiced his religion privately. He raised his children to be catholic. He didn't practice openly because of his political position.
Stalin was a paranoid egomaniac. He committed crimes because he could get away with it and for political gain. He eliminated anyone that posed even a minor threat to his power. The types of crimes he committed to intimidate potential challengers to his consolidated power. Atheism had ZERO effect or influence on Stalin's actions.
No one, and I mean no one can make a connection between atheism and the crimes that Stalin committed. Given the fact that Stalin wasn't even an atheist, it would prove even more impossible.
So towrpiller is just trolling out of anger and stupidity.
I challenge him to prove that:
1) Stalin was an atheist, and
2) that atheism had ANYTHING to do with the USSR purges.
1) Even though the consensus said he did not believe in a god, taking it to be true and it is, Stalin despised religion.
2.1) Like i said "he went far beyond anything necessary to establish his power or maintain it. There was no practical necessity to imprisoning millions in the Gulag system, and torturing and killing millions more."
And it can't be said that his anti religious moves...think Gulags...all depended on thinking he just had to defend his position. Millions of powerless people, with no economic resources, who were no threat to anyone ended up there.
To say that this had "nothing to do with atheism"...especially considering the other leaders, and his mentors Lenin and Trotsky...is nothing more than Denialism.
2.2 ) And one does not have to claim that everything he did was derived from atheism to recognize that his atheism was the strongest component of his hatred or religion...hence he did indeed take actions based on his atheism.
So in the end:
Stalin did not believe in God. He despised religion. He did what he could to eliminate it, going well beyond what would have been necessary for him to maintain his position...take a look at The League of Militant Atheists.
OK! So , Stalin hated religion. Is this your flaccid attempt to soil the reputation of all atheists or are you just spreading shit? Do you ever read any atheists on this forum quoting Stalin?
towerpillar:
You're living in fantasyland! Atheism had little or nothing to do with Stalin's murderous career. No doubt Stalin regarded religious authority as a nuisance because it was wedded to the czar and would continue to challenge his authority. I don't see any special hatred going beyond practical considerations. After all, the religious leaders were not slaughtered whole sale! I think you need to crack a real history textbook.
Stalin also declared war on science, especially genetics and evolution, because of the lunatic theory known as Lysenkoism. They thought they could teach crops to grow better through some kind of indoctrination. They even claimed they could force weeds to turn into crops. Thousands of scientists were imprisoned or executed for opposing this theory, which caused massive grain shortages and hunger. In my experience, atheists tend to favor science, especially genetics and evolution.
So why did Stalin support Lysenkoism? Could it be that he was not really an atheist, but just a megalomanic who was driven to find scapegoats for the endless failures of the Soviet system?
So, Stalin was an atheist but he was against the extreme left who wanted to take the anti-religious approach to the point of wholesale killing of religious people, as well as being against the extreme right who believed religion would eventually die a natural death as people embraced the evidence against the existence of god and theistic beliefs. Stalin approached anti-religiousness with a middle of the road method that was based in the re-education of the same ignorant masses who were brainwashed to believe in a god, as well as the removal (destruction) of places of worship and arrest and internment of the clerical class of people to isolate them from society.
But....
From the Wiki-link the OP provided - (LMG- League of Militant Godless)
"In order to gain support for the war effort (both domestic and foreign), Stalin ended the antireligious persecution[54][55] and the LMG was disbanded.[11] Internal pressure to end the persecution came from the need to win the loyalty of religious Soviet citizens for the war effort, while external pressure came from the Allies, who would not support Stalin if he continued the campaign.[54]"
So...
Stalin saw the practical use for religious people as 1) soldiers for the war effort against the Axis forces and 2), political leverage to gain foreign support for Russia.
Prior to all that he was anti-religious but not because he had a problem with religious people, per se. He had a problem with anyone who wielded power or could possibly work up an alliance against him. He personally ordered the killings of millions of Russians because he needed to assure himself that their party affiliation would remain too weak to compete with his own. Stalin was a power mongering sociopath that U.S. General George S. Patton wanted to bring down at the close of hostilities in Europe but his boss, Ike Eisenhower, reprimanded him and instead Russia annexed Berlin. The rest is history.
I would not focus on Stalin as an atheist dog to kick as much as I would kick him for being a mass murderer. If the OP has his panties in a wad over Stalin it's for the wrong reason.
@towerpiller NO TROLLING!!!!!! Read the fucking rules moron!
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You never replied to my comment to you. Why is that ?
Towerpiller: What do think of the Christian Identity Movement?
Never mind. I started a new thread.
What about it ?
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