I have been been talking to a person like you, an atheist and I have given my stance on what he said which are in quote marks. He never replied and I would like to see an answer or an atheist opinion as I am very interested to know to see how you guys reply. I have split it up into two parts: (but I have to admit I don't know much).
1.) "but if we don't pick the ones he likes we are going to burn in everlasting fire? How is that freedom to choose?"
No, it's not a real choice, more a blackmail. I don't believe in such a god. This is Hitchen's cosmic Kim Ir Sen. Your starting assumption is wrong, in order to understand, reason and find truth, you have to give up on prejudice and clichè. Otherwise you are stuck and go in circle.
First of all you have to be analiytical, to start analyze parts. There is no hope for you to understand anything if you continue with a large brush like "All religions are the same, stupid. Period." Even Bill Maher admitted that there are differences between religions, even if religion, as a whole, is stupid. He made once the distinction between Christians and Christ-like men. There are big differences. Why is important? Because you can learn who really God is. Different people represent different gods. Don't believe them, but evaluate their claims. You have to use your reasoning, look for evidence and understand realities beyond your comfort zone. It's like throwing yourself in the abyss. But if you search for truth, it will save you. I ask you to not believe even me. I also can be wrong.
The god you invoke is a false god. It's the god presented mostly by the Catholic Church centuries ago. In order to gain power, control and money over masses, it came with this legalistic and ruthless god, a sort of modern Allah. If you don't obey as a slave, give money to the church, you will be punished, burn, tortured.
The same god that apalls you, apalls me or Luther, for example. Luther started The Reformation for that. He learned about a loving God, totally the opposite from the god presented by the Catholic Church. This was the turning point. Could be also for you, if you are ready to accept that God is also love. If you decide to remain for your own reasons to the same concept of cosmic Kim Ir Sen, I just lose my time.
Those who claim to be Christians, but speak just about a legalistic and formalistic god, are not real Christians. Those who don't speak about God's love also, are false Christians. Just like the Phariseeis, they pretend to know the truth, they judge and enjoy sending to hell. They are Christians without Christ. They are hypocrites. I don't like them, either.
2.) "not really a choice is it especially once you are commanded it... it's self cancelling."
You are right! If we talk about this legalistic, petty, avaricious and hateful god, it's not really a free choice. But if we talk about a God of love, the choice must be free. Love can be express just based on a really free choice, otherwise it's not love. Law can still be law if says "do this or you will support the consquences", but love can't do that. If really God is love, He is forces to make a real offer of choice, He must be consistent with Himself. This is about the veracity of choice that I think you got it wrong.
Second,
hell is not just that image of boiling pitch in cauldrons where demons push you with tridents while laughing. Because you have a wrong image of God, you also have a wrong image of His absence, also. If you would lived your whole life in a cave, you wouldn't care about the sun and his absence. But if you knew his daylight and warmt, his "love", when night and cold comes, you miss it. Yes, sun is not personal, is just a hot and indifferent globe, but I use it like an illustration.In the same way is God. If you get out of you prejudices about God and see His love and goodness, His absence would become a sort of hell. You would like to be with Him in the same way you eagerly wait for the sun in the morning. This is a different image of hell. The more you love somebody, the worse the hell of that person's absence is.
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So if god is love and goodness, how is that love and goodness manifested in the world? Are you saying that this god is an actual, conscious entity? If so, what has it ever done for us? When was a prayer ever answered? What would the world be like without god's love? Would there be more earthquakes, tsunami, epidemics, wars, crime?
You seem to be missing my point and focusing on the trivial.
If your putative god's love isn't manifested in the world, what's the point? That seems pretty fundamental to your argument. If love is the core attribute of this god, where can we find it?
Well that was a short discussion. I'm disappointed.
Unfortunately you haven't offered anything new. You've said the people who preach about a vengeful, legalistic god aren't really christians. That's convenient. If someone presents god in an unattractive light, you simply disown them, just as Muslims disown terrorists as unrepresentative of their "religion of love". My response to that old argument is that every sect of every religion imparts terrible power to its leaders and will inevitably bring evil into the world.
Then you claim that atheists have the wrong idea about god. It's really nice after all. You even say god's "forced to make a real offer of choice" (I'm assuming that "forces" is a typo for "forced" in that sentence.) What can force an omnipotent being to do anything?
Where did you and Luther get the idea that god is love? Are you saying that god exists independently from human beings as a conscious entity whose defining attribute is love? Or is god simply the collective effect of the human emotion called "love"? We might as well say the Easter Bunny is love. Pick your fantasy and call it love.
@jamesryland
If you actually want a response, please try and phrase your question in a coherent manner. I started to read your post but became SO frustrated by the way you worded it that I just dismissed it altogether.
Also, I cannot tell if you are pro-atheist or anti-atheist.
Now back to the content. These statements mean nothing until someone actually proves a god.
Agreed I couldn't really understand what he was saying. I think some more context would help as well.
So what I got from that is: you've only talked to the wrong kinda of christians atheists, let me tell you what a "real christian" thinks and I'll easily convince you of god with my impeccable logic(then fails to give context on what it is they are even talking about).
To O.P.
Honestly from what you you have posted(words that you've had time to sit and think about) Im half convinced that the person you were speaking to was simply dumbfounded by the shear in-coherency of your speech. I mean if somebody tells my I can help the economy by mowing my lawn every Tuesday how can I argue with that?
jamesryland:" The same god that apalls you, apalls me or Luther, for example. Luther started The Reformation for that. He learned about a loving God, totally the opposite from the god presented by the Catholic Church."
What a laugh! Martin Luther and a loving god?
Here is a quote from Luther's :"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews":
"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
"Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"
You beat me to it.
As I understand it, the antisemitism of Hitler was greatly inspired by that of Martin Luther.
@jamesRyland
First, from the standpoint that you asked for our "opinion", I'm unclear as to what you want opinions on exactly. I'm inclined at the onset to go the 'your grammar, etc sucks so your point does to' route (option #1, the "You suk" defense in God-vs-Atheism debates btw) but without wanting to offend anyone that approach is all too common in God-vs-Atheist 'conversations' (on both sides). I don't like it and it does nothing to actually promote any valid or logical conclusions, let alone help anyone (beyond mindless rhetoricists stroking their own egos for 'putting the enemy in their place' by ignoring the point) or find any answers. So I won't. I'll make some guesses at what you want our opinions on and go from there. But, you have to understand something, if you're going to make any attempt at all at having a serious conversation, seeking serious answers, with someone of differing religions or views with so wide a gap as Atheism and Christianity you need to work on some things:
1) You set out a "challenge" right up front, ("Simple challenge 2 you all..."), then proceeded to tell a story involving meaningless prattle here (to many of us at least) about stuff most, if not all people here don't even give credence to begin with, then asked for opinions basically on the effect of a speech about the love of a being people here DO NOT BELIEVE IN (did you get that part?). Where is the challenge?!? Or did I misread the title of your post? This is an Atheist site... I get that the love of God is a big thing to you & that you perhaps want opinions on how well or effective your oration on it is. But, when people see, "Simple challenge 2 you all...", we tend to expect to start engaging the old grey matter, you know, for the "challenge". Not just listening to prattle, & (call me crazy) a site dedicated to Atheism. where people don't even believe God exists, probably isn't the best site to go with on that one. Just throwing that out there... do with it as you will. (Or is that the challenge? To sit through & tolerate your story about how much a being we don't think exists loves us? I win... :D )
2) Provide some context... blurting out, "this guy said this so I said that... whadyathink?" in a forum like this and expecting lucid, well thought out answers is setting yourself up for wasted effort and ridicule. Particularly when doing so in a forum of people that don't even agree with the way you think from the onset. You want us, anyone, to think about something you said in a reply to something we don't have any inkling to what the hell was said or done prior to all this? Give us something to actually think about that's coherent and makes sense. Or expect most people to revert back to option #1.
3) A HUGE faux pas... ("I have been been talking to a person like you, an atheist..."). REALLY? Just like me and everyone else here, an Atheist? So all Atheists are the same eh? Do you like it when people say things like "Like you Christians..." Believe it or not (& Atheists, feel free to correct me here if I'm wrong) we are all different here. In fact, I'd venture to say one of the things people on this site enjoy most is celebrating the fact we're not cookie cutter people. We think & act differently from not just 'other people' but each other. In truth I/we knew you didn't intentionally mean any malice by it, but isn't that the very nature of being inconsiderate? Acting without consideration? Or did you want us to answer in unison? Or did you expect that any one of us would indeed answer just like any of the rest of us? If you didn't want individual answers you did fine. If, however, you want answers from different individuals, please talk to 'us' as though we are in fact individuals, because we are... just like, well you know, 'you Christians'. ;)
4) Ok, now let's get to your point (as I've tried to interpret it from your writings)... there are 2 things I'll point out among the several that need pointing out imho (my fingers are tiring, gotta cut this shorter than I'd like, but I do honestly want to help if I'm able). First, from the guys statement, "but if we don't pick the ones he likes we are going to burn in everlasting fire? How is that freedom to choose?"... I'm guessing he's referring to how God (we're assuming the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God) set down "commandments" to be followed if one wishes to avoid burning in "everlasting fire", then touting that as 'a choice'. This guy is agnostic to begin with, not necessarily Atheist, or he wouldn't be talking about scripture, he'd be telling you to go screw yourself most likely (or using the 'go to option #1), you talking about how a non-existent god loves him. So again, you've either lumped everyone that doesn't think like you into one big pot & assumed we all think just alike... OR, you've come here to see how effective your speech making is. I have no way of estimating which is true but it doesn't matter. Either way, give up the "God loves you" approach with Atheists &/or agnostics that can critique scripture & are scared (which this guy is or he wouldn't be worrying about paying for crimes he's yet to commit). You really need to work on your apologetics if you're going to try recruiting for your religion. The guy had concerns about seeming doctrine contradictions & the ramifications of not following "commandments", not about how much a questionably-existent being loves him... address those. If I were him I'd walk away thinking you ignored my concerns at best. This guy had a valid question regarding the logic of the God you supposedly serve and the book his promises (both good promises and bad) are written in which YOU are supposed to have the answers to, particularly if you're going to accept the responsibility of representing it to others?!? Why didn't you explain he was confusing parts of two separate things combining them into one misunderstanding? That the "commandments" he mentioned were part of an Old Testament that dealt with an old system/contract your God had with the Jews. That you, as a Christian are now subject to a new testament & contract through the resurrection that doesn't cancel out that old contract but instead 'paid off the balance due', so to speak, giving you the opportunity to "choose" the way you want to live by believing in that new contract resurrection, so that the whole 'burning in everlasting fire' thing is old news. THAT would've helped calm this guys worries and explained it so it seemed to make some semblance of sense. But you blew it bro! You need to read your bible bro & then remember it if you're gonna be representin'... seriously. And you hadda' come to an Atheist site to learn that?!? Wow... now see, this is indeed a prime example why people have a problem with Christians. Now I challenge you...to tell the people at your church you came to an Atheist site & got a lessen on how best to witness, lol
Ok, sarcasm aside (all in good fun), here's what you should be taking from this little adventure... I promised you two things:
1) Stop lumping EVERYONE that doesn't think like you into one big pot. It makes you look like an ass in circles outside of church & will get you in trouble in some neighborhoods.
2) Dude... if you MUST stick with it, READ YOUR BIBLE LIKE YOU'RE GONNA USE IT, & address the questions not your feelings... IF you're gonna stick with it that is! lol
Now, if you're still reading this I want you to know, against my own better judgement I really did try to help you muck up the waters for some poor sap, as you can see from my scriptural exegesis, so I hope you appreciate that all Atheists aren't the assholes you've heard about. And I'm not even gonna try to get you to stop the madness by coming to the 'good side of the force', since I know it won't stick with you... I can tell these things. However, I will leave you with this one piece of advice... if you REALLY wanna help the guy you've been talking with, for GOD'S SAKE SEND HIM HERE & LET ME DO THE TALKING! (He'll thank you for it later, & we can use the memberships! :D )
Peace to you bro... :)
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OP: "you have to give up ... clichè. Otherwise you are stuck and go in circle."
Am I the only one who sees the irony?