Yesterday I issued a challenge on a religious forum. I said if anyone can provide enough evidence for their religion, I'll convert to it, and that I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
Here it is: http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/2925328-dear-theist....
It kinda went something like this (there were multiple opponents, but I'll just use the word ''theist'' to represent them):
Theist: You'd be ''glad'' to be proven wrong? That means you have a desire to believe in God.
Me: Scientists love to be proven wrong because they care about what's true.
Theist: If you were a scientist, conduct your own experiment and don't rely on other people's evidence.
Me: I'm not a scientist. But if I were, I'd get a glass of water, pray that it turns into wine, get people of different religious beliefs to pray that it turns into wine, and see if anything happens.
Theist: So you don't care whether God exists, you just want to harness the power of prayer.
Me: Uh, it's the same thing. If prayer works, then it would imply God's existence.
Theist: You're mocking my belief.
Me: No, all I want is evidence.
Theist: But what if you knew deep in your heart that there's a God?
Me: Don't beg the question. What if you knew deep down that there's NO God?
Theist: Oh, I've been there--atheism used to send me into deep grief :)
Me: I didn’t say I ‘’knew there’s no God’’, in fact I don’t 100% rule out the possibility.
Another Atheist: You're addicted to irrational beliefs.
Theist: But I don't think my beliefs are irrational.
Me: Whether a belief is rational is an objective thing. Depends on evidence.
Theist: But my beliefs are rational--I seek to align myself with God.
Me: You have to prove it instead of saying ''I feel it''.
Theist: I experience God in my life. Obviously you don't.
Me: You're still basically saying ''I feel it''. Harsh fact: the universe doesn't care how you feel.
Theist: The spiritual realm can only be revealed to those who sincerely believe it.
Me: Then it has no objective evidence. Using Occam's Razor, it could've easily been psychological effects, like hallucination.
Theist: You apparently don't want to know the truth, and fear that you might find it all to be real. I could care less about your potential losses.
Me: Woah, I ''fear'' to investigate? Again, if there's objective evidence then I'll consider it true. Plus appeal to emotion doesn't work.
Theist: You're denying everything just because you hate religion.
Me: It's YOU denying the fact that there's no evidence for any deity. And I don't hate religion just like I don't hate the movie Avatar.
Theist: You're not open to new evidence at all. You won't even begin to try.
Me: I AM open to new evidence, but personal experiences don't count as evidence.
(to be continued...)
(Fun fact: they defend their God in a sort of spiritual life-coaching sense, but I checked their posts on other forums and they talked about hellfire or somethin’. Good, at least they know hell-threatening doesn't work.)
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Good times, huh? Glad you're having fun with it, R&D. I know a lot of atheists can't see the point of debating theists, but I enjoy it, too, and you can't refute an argument if you don't know what it is.
I love this bit: "Theist: Oh, I've been there--atheism used to send me into deep grief :)" The tired old sad angy atheist trope. Let me know when you get hit with " You just wanna sin!" Sometime after that it will be "I'll pray for you" aka the Theists Retreat.
https://youtu.be/7FPELc1wEvk
When I say that personal experiences aren't evidence, theist always take that personally and accuse me of closed-mindedness and ''denial''...
@R&D
Re: "When I say that personal experiences aren't evidence, theist always take that personally..."
For many theists, their sense of self is deeply rooted in their sense of God. It's a big part of who they are. It's hard for them not to take it personally.
Careful. I think it might be counter productive to go to their sites with too much hostility. Sometimes when their beliefs are threatened they'll double down. Every time I go hunting I go with seeds to plant. I leave the big guns for the big game where the opponent doesn't matter, but the audience is listening.
But it depends on what your objective is. Whether it's to annoy a few religious people or- like me- to play my part in the long battle against the religious chokehold on humanity that the future generations may enjoy a much better world than we historical humans had.
Also, being honest, philosphically, and allowing for the posibility that such a thing as a god exists is okay, but there comes a point when it's a meaningless exercise. Given the thousands of years of failures to produce any evidence and the world that science has pushed us to, I don't feel the need to ask for evidence for a god any more than I feel the need to ask for evidence that any other mythological being exists. I might say it just to see what they say, so they can dig themself a little hole, but I don't expect anything different. A rate of failure such that the religious have is indeed evidence of absence.
@Rushing or Dragging: Show me enough evidence and I'll convert?
REALLY? Convert to what? 30,000 Christian faiths all claiming to be correct. Islam and its 13 or so sects, probably a lot more in America. Judaism and its many sects, some of which you can not join unless you are black.
Imagine for a moment a religion could be proved right and you were to worship the God of the Bible or the God of Islam. Think for a moment about those gods. Think about the Books they wrote. Think about the things they have done. Even if a religion proved them self and their god to be true, Would you really worship that God? Would you really believe that Religion. Would you be able to cherry pick the Bible like a pro and just ignore the actual god mentioned in the book and replace it with a make believe god. Even if God was proved to be true, how could anyone worship it?
@Cog
Re: "Would you really worship that God?"
Nope. Fear - yes. Worship - hell, no!
The mere thought of that...thing... being real is terrifying. Not because of its Hell, but because it's "a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."*
*R Dawkins
But he *loves* you.
And he wants to save you from a special place he has created just for you if you don't love him back!!!
Everyone seems to be in agreement here.
i'm waiting for the "to be continued"
hhmmm...
Update: new posts say ''I'm too closed-minded to regard their personal experiences as truth'', ''I somehow WANT to be converted'', ''water turned into wine is the only thing that'll make me consider God's existence'', ''I'm insincere'' etc
Oh and I got banned from the website for trolling on another thread (not sure if I should've done that)
@RoD Re: ''water turned into wine is the only thing that'll make me consider God's existence''
Man, they could turn the entire ocean into wine, and it still would not be enough to get me drunk enough to convert and worship any god(s), much less the ones in the Bible or Koran. LOL (Would be a helluva fun swim, though. *hic-cup*...)
"(Would be a helluva fun swim, though. *hic-cup*...)"
quasi calling for emergency response team
*ring ring* *ring ring*
OPERATOR: 991...
QUASI: uhhh..hello..i like to report a drowning man, well not really a man *rolling eyes*..a robot...i just saw him enjoying the miracle god made(ocean wine), and now...the only thing i can see is the ripple he left in the water.. i think you should hurry?? thanks...*phone hang up*
alright..don't worry t-man they are coming...just hang on there bruh!!you're doing great,(if god miraculously turned ocean into wine, then its a piece of scrap cake to save t-man, right?) *relaxing on the beach bench*...*sssshhoooooppppp*....*sipping on mixed vodka*...
..aahhhhhh....this is the life.. *talking to a seagull*
(edited - added something)..
"Oh and I got banned from the website for trolling on another thread (not sure if I should've done that)"
I shouldn't worry, one of them will pop along in a moment to troll us, trolling theists are like ants on here, no sooner is one squashed by admin, or sent scurrying away with rational argument than another bimbles in all piss and vinegar with self righteous indignation.
Sadly on the whole they're a humourless bunch when it comes to their superstitious beliefs, which is shame as the one thing religions have is a rich vein of humour in their claims.
Damn Trolls - we don't like them here either. Go away!!!
RoD, let them theists know theres a guy here who hss lived most of his life with sevrre deafness and all the troubles that come with it. Tell them if they pray hard enough to restore my hearing I will become the next Billy Graham. I will be waiting. But if they give you any shit about tempting their god tell them I am profoundly devastated as Jesus promised they could do anything through prayer and it has nothing to do with their god....Cant wait to hear from them.
Cant wait to hear from them. (Pun Intended) LOL
; )
I just realised...I am a miracle waiting to happen...ooo I feel special LOL
@Grinseed
Oh, you're special, alright...*using elbow to nudge Cog in the ribs*... *snicker-snicker*...
Are you suggesting that when his mom called him "special" she didn't mean it in a good way?
@Cog Re: Special
*shocked look on face*....Huh?... Noooooo.... Neverrrrr.... *looking up and away*..*halo over head*...*whistling innocently*....
:-P
@RoD
I'd missed the "religious" in this sentence: "Yesterday I issued a challenge on a religious forum." Epic fail for reading comprehension. Thou shalt not skim text, Sushi.
I don't go on their turf. There's no need. They show up on ours, all the time. Especially on the atheist YouTube channels. I think several are parked there, like cabs on the airport rank when a busy flight is landing. I've met some really nasty ones there, but I've met a couple of really nice ones, too.
Water turning into wine would not prove the supernatural.
Then why else is my water turning into wine? (Coughing^^ spitting#$# ) OH hell! That was urine. Never mind.
We live in a dangerous world when people are taught that water is in fact blood, and they believe it.
Yeah, that means our world has one huge open-sore wound...
rmfr
Just like that time I had Syphilis. Is that too much information???
Not too much information, no. Where did you get it from?
Watching internet porn while sitting on a strange toilet seat.
Don't you just hate it when that happens? I don't know how many times I've...never mind.
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