There is a lot of misinformation on the internet that references “studies” that have been debunked my science. There is also the fact that science isn’t infallible and has history has shown what science believe to be good for you today, could later turn out to be bad for you. I believe in this case vaccines have proven they work, and they are good science, but their effectiveness means that the risk is much lower to be exposed and therefore need the vaccine is lower as well.
We’ve recently seen cases of preventable illness come back into America after years without a case. I’m a supporter of freedom, but I want what’s best for our society as well. Laws about seatbelts statistically save lives, but this is forcing people to do things against their will for society and their own “good”. How can we call it freedom if we don’t have the choice to make bad decisions? Freedom isn’t defined by a Stepford wife following along because she’s programed to, freedom is defined by doing things like drinking, smoking, gambling, etc that many disagree with. Where is the line in the sand on freedom?
Many public schools require immunization of children or they won’t accept them. These people are paying their taxes for services they cannot use. Should they get a tax break? Is that fair? Is it ethical to take away services paid for simply because you don’t agree with the way the person using it acts? And if it’s based more on the danger the unimmunized child presents what’s the liability?
Should we charge anti-vaxxer parents with assault or murder if they cause an outbreak? They generally live in communities, is the whole community to blame? How do we decide (if we agree there should be punishment) who and how much is justified? And what about their own children?
Is it moral to punish a parent for doing what they believe will help even if the end result hurts their child? I don’t know of a single parent who hasn’t felt like they’ve made some bad decisions in raising their children. It’s not like we received a handbook, and even if we did no one would have time to read it. As it requires more and more time to simply “get by” economically, how much of this is societies fault, and how much is simply a case of not having the time and money to do your due diligence?
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I do not support criminalization. I hate any progress towards a police state. Crimes give cops more power. If the rational people can not use persuasion effectively it does not give them the right to resort to force. Science educators need to kick it up a notch. The Holistic Twits are winning the propaganda war. The Twits use fear tactics which are very powerful techniques. The Medical establishment responds dryly : "There is no evidence vaccinations cause autism". Rational, yes! Packs a punch? No! How about "There is nothing more natural than immunization!"
So to you this is something that should be handled by society, and schools shouldn't prevent unvaccinated children from joining classes?
Coveny: If 30 kids in one class are vaccinated against pertussis and one is not, what is the danger?
I assume you aren't familiar with the fact that vaccines don't work in roughly 5% of the cases, and that even if they are "working" with enough disease it can still overcome your immune system, and that's why you asked that question.
Mark Coveny,
If you have the capability you must protect the herd and in this instance it means that all of the rug rats must be vaccinated. That protects the herd as well as the individual. We simply can't allow dummies to refuse to get their kids vaccinated against such contagious diseases as polio, DPT, smallpox, yellow fever.
Diotrephes: I am a descendant of the chimp. I eat herd animals for breakfast. Who but a sheep wants to be part of a herd?
I don't think that's the point. Not vaccinating children is dangerous for everyone. Herd or not, we're social animals, and communicable disease is a major issue. Your right to make bad choices ends when those choices take another person's right to life. An anti-vaxxer causing an outbreak that kills people is no better than a mass shooting. Those victims are no less dead. Personally, I think vaccinating children should be compulsory. Some moron's comfort in delusion is not more important than human life, sorry to say.
Jared Alesi: A pro-vaccinator with the punitive powers of the police state is not my cup of tea. We now know what causes disease. We do not have to unknowingly allow smallpox victims to walk among us pleading the local shaman for prayer and laying on of hands. We can isolate the sick.
I'd rather be in a pack than a herd. Herds get slaughtered and run off cliffs.
That seems like an over simplification. There are many things we could, but don't do to protect the herd that involve dummies.
I think governments need to increase funding and focus strongly on educating people.
for example, if you could have an entire tv debate, release the most accurate statistics etc and just generally inform those who
listen to idiots, as oppose to the more rational thinkers.
But that has been done, and we are still here. People search for data that confirms what they want to believe, and the internet is full of that.
Failure to vaccinate children is at the very least a moral crime. There should also be legal consequences.
First, all parents enrolling their children in public schools should be required to produce a vaccination certificate. Private schools should be able to set their own policies.
Second, if parents fail to vaccinate and a child catches polio, etc., as a result, those parents should be charged with reckless child endangerment or some such offense.
Third, taking an unvaccinated child into the presence of babies under vaccination age, including younger siblings, should be a criminal offense.
Governments and international agencies should be working harder to educate the public and counter the spurious claims of anti-vaxxers, whether they are affluent suburban new-agers in the West or medievalist Muslim clerics in Africa. These idiots are a menace to children everywhere.
I'm old enough to remember classmates wearing Forest Gump leg irons. Polio is a truly awful disease.
Everyone I've talked to old enough to have see the effect of these diseases sings their praises, but their effectiveness has given way to many believing they aren't needed anymore.
One problem in the UK is the authorities insistence on the MMR. Many people who will not let their children receive the MMR will accept the vaccinations singly over a longer period. (Measles, Mumps, Rubella).
I am against prosecution of parents as criminalising is for criminals, not for the honest but dim, misguided or ignorant. Also, a parent convinced vaccination endangers their child, however erroneous the belief, may take drastic and possibly harmful action to avoid the danger in the face of any criminal legislation or threats.
When it comes to MMR illnesses, it would not seem reasonable to separate children who have not been vaccinated from those who have. There is very little risk to the vaccinated. The problem is the inability of the society or community as a whole (not "the herd") to eradicate the problem and so must continue with the expense of mass vaccinations. In that sense, the anit-vax are self-defeating. If the disease could be eliminated as effectively as polio has been expunged, the need for vaccination can be obviated.
And yet it's come back to America after being expunged.
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I have to agree with ZeffD, in that I too am against prosecution of parents... because rightly or wrongly they are simply trying to do what is right for their children.
The problem is that governments are lazy, when anti vaccination papers or comments are released into the media, they don't go about doing much to get the truth out.
I've read the reports linking some to autism (my children are vaccinated by the way), and they have done nothing really to refute this.
Idiots need to be told bluntly! And be shown the truth as clearly as humanly possible.
It’s a sticky situation to be sure! I am a huge supporter of immunization. There are people who have medical contraindications and cannot get them. These people are at risk because of the antivaxers. Heck, the antivaxers are at risk because of the antivaxers!
I think Algebe is on the right track.
I totally agree with ZeffD!
I think it's a negligence, and as Algebe says, at least a moral crime. And polio, for instance, apart from an awful disease, could also be fatal. According to https://vaccines.procon.org in USA, the year the vaccine was in introduced 1955, 1.043 children died because of it.
I compare this to the blood donation thing with the Jehova's Witnesses. In my country, since 2012, if a kid under age 16 needs a blood transfusion in a life or death situation, the doctor can give them blood, even if the parents -or the kid- opposes. And I think this is good news. Kids -and even less other kids because of infection- shouldn't suffered because some parents are stupid.
P.S. And I agree on education being an important factor to avoid this.
Many of the people seem to be for vaccines but want an exemption for religious reason. I don't see why that should make a difference.
Exactly, @Mark. It's the exact same question. Are parents able to cause an irreparable damage in their child/other children by omission? It sounds like negligence, thus punishable. Hazard and legal consequences should be, at least, warned to parents fiercedly. And @Chimp, I'm not talking about enforcing people by law to vaccinate their children, but this is a matter of public health, so something must be done.
P.S. Mark, pay attention to rule number 10. Following forum rules are like vaccines, it prevents bad things from happening. xD.
A signature generally isn't considered advertising on most websites. Advertise would be if I created a post dedicated to ForDebating.com. (which I haven't) The mods may disagree, but it would be an uncommon stance.
Hey, I'm not a moderator, but I've been around for a while. I really don't care...Just saying...
One of the problems is that parents make emotional decisions regarding vaccination and then try to justify it logically. Perhaps we need to educate them emotionally. Consider the following vignette between Effie, a young mother and Aaron, an immunologist.
“You said you are an immunologist, what area?” asked Effie.
“Oh, my project is looking at how immune cell signaling pathways are altered by adjuvants. Adjuvants are those components added to vaccines to make them work better,” he added by way of explanation.
“So, you know a lot about vaccines?”
“I’ve read about them in depth and width, so yes.”
“If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you this. Should I get my son Jason vaccinated? You hear all sorts of nasty stories about vaccines and autism, bad reactions, things like that, so to be on the safe side, I didn’t get his done.”
Aaron took a deep breath, then exhaled slowly. “I’m not a medical doctor, a pediatrician or a GP, but, as a scientist evaluating all the evidence, the short, emphatic and unequivocal answer is, yes, as soon as possible, get him vaccinated. The supposed autism link is based on discredited, erroneous work, and the side reactions are blown out of proportion. The only unsafe vaccine is the one that is not given.”
“Oh, well, I heard…” she lost impetus under his gaze.
“Do you play the national lottery?” he said.
“What? Yes, I occasionally I spend a few pounds on some tickets, why?”
“You spend a few pounds and what do you buy? You buy hope. That’s the only tangible thing that you purchase. You buy the hope of a win for a few hours or a few days until the drawing, and then, the vast majority of the time, poof, you lose all your money, right? Occasionally somebody wins, almost never you.”
Effie nodded, Aaron continued.
“Now consider this different type of lottery. Every day, you buy a £1 ticket. The best that you can ever do, ever do, is break even, win back your original £1. You can never win more than that, OK? However, occasionally, say every year or so, you lose drastically and owe the Lottery thousands of pounds. Would you play that game?”
“Of course not, that would be idiotic.”
“Well, that is exactly the game you are playing with Jason’s health and well-being by not immunizing him.”
“Oh, but, oh, I see,” said a stunned Effie as the realization hit.
This really gets to me. People, children, the society at large is put at risk because of the utter stupidity of fucking religious conservative nutcases.
I don't know if this conspiracy was financially related, or just a desire for fame, but Andrew Jeremy Wakefield published a now-debunked research paper linking vaccines to autism in 1998. He has since lost his license to practice medicine and stripped of his academic credentials.
The rumour and conspiracy spread to the USA and was propagated by none other than the uneducated playboy centrefold MTV VJ Jenny McCarthy. And the religious wackos took up the conspiracy as a cause against....you guessed it, the Federal Government.
The conspiracy has more than been disproven, but you can't deprogram morons or conservatives.
He's still doing well talking to audiences of people on the subject...
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In britain if you don't vaccinate you children you get social services knocking on your door.
But yes, it should be a criminal offence because you're not onpy endangering your own children but your entire community because if enough people aren't vaccinated then it gives viruses a chance you mutate. Then everyone, whether vaccinated or not, is susceptible to the virus.
The only reason why it an issue is because viruses like Polio, and their devastating impact is out of living memory.
Coming from the healthcare industry side (insurance, I'm not a doctor), I cannot advocate criminalization for not vaccinating. Healthcare choices are a very important personal right and should not be forced upon anyone.
That being said, I do advocate for criminal punishment if the result of not vaccinating harms someone else. For example, the MMR (measles) vaccine cannot be given to children before age 1 year, if I remember correctly. So if my innocent 6 month old comes in contact with an unvaccinated child that happens to be carrying the active measles virus, my baby could in fact contract the deadly disease. If that happened and my child became seriously ill or died, I think the parents of the unvaccinated child should be charged with manslaughter.
People will die of all causes natural to the conduct of the human condition. Or, said another way, we're all going to die so it doesn't matter if man cannot define and enforce a standard code of morality. Is it better to try and grasp the virtue of a moral death over an immoral death? if there's anything of virtue in that analysis let me know because I've got better things to do with the little time I'm granted.
I think the whole of man's destiny is pointless at the collective level and punctuated by the desperate search for purpose at the individual level. Morality doesn't have much of an argument where an instinctual will to survive presides. If anything, any port in the storm. If kicking morality to the curb buys better odds of longevity is its sacrifice a worthy one to make? All would be in favor of that at the 11th hour of their lives.
But, until those precious few remaining moments arrive we'll all speak in utopian tongues how man should conduct himself.