Shadow is going to chime in here with his evidence for the non-falsifiable position of the non-existence of heaven. So we have to wait to see what he shows up with. I am not arguing for the existence of heaven, only that the claim anyone can know with 100% accuracy that heaven does not exist is making a fallacious assertion on an un-falsifiable claim.
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I fully agree. Although I have my personal slant on this issue, there is no evident to prove if heaven does or does not exist.
IMO this falls within the black swan fallacy, the logical error of discounting the possibility of something because no evidence has yet been observed for it.
I have no problem with that at all. I believe I am justified to assert that a haven does not exist with about 99% accuracy. I have never seen a good argument for its existence.... I don't believe a good argument can be formed without using fallacious assumptions. But just because I believe it, don't make it so. After all, I could be wrong.
And frankly speaking - I might not be able to justify 99%. I think I could but I have never really had the challenge. So, we have to wait and see what Shadows proof is.
I was still hoping Black Swan - I mean Shadow - would show up to defend his position that he knows for a fact 100% heaven does not exist. I really would like to see the evidence. It would be a slam dunk to use such evidence in any debate with a theologian. I wonder if he can prove God does not exist as well.
I told you before since there is no soul 100% according to science, and don't start talking about not being sure whether there is soul or not, because there isn't 100%. i'm a doctor and i'm telling you our bodies run by nutrients through many proccesses so we don't need a soul to feel or to talk, since that, there's no heaven 100% because after you die, your body will break down back to earth as many elements so there is no you anymore, you became seperated elements. wake up.
@Shadow: I told you before since there is no soul 100% according to science,
You are being ignorant. 1. Science is not a thing. Nothing is "According to science."
2. You are apparently unaware of the null hypothesis, Scientific inquiries have never mead the assertion that a soul does not exist. Heaven does not exist. God does not exist. All we know from the process of exploration into these ideas is that there is no good evidence supporting them. "They are un-proved." That is all science can say.
Claiming to be a condescending doctor without evidence does not make your claim legitamit. However, I would enjoy bearing witness to a 100% claim such as yours.
I told you before since there is no soul 100% according to science, and don't start talking about not being sure whether there is soul or not, because there isn't 100%. i'm a doctor and i'm telling you our bodies run by nutrients through many proccesses so we don't need a soul to feel or to talk, since that, there's no heaven 100% because after you die, your body will break down back to earth as many elements so there is no you anymore, you became seperated elements. wake up.
I say also god as delusion isn't exist in reality 100%, why? because it's impossible if we have a god that made us, is that god has not another creator, further he become no god. the idea of the god, the creator is totally blind, weak and 100% wrong.
Remember i say 100% not 99.9%.
Many atheists, to be intellectually honest, claim only 99.999...% certainty of even the most certain things. Technically, I do the same, but when it comes to being 99.999...% certain about something there is really little difference between that and 100%. It's negligible, and therefore, for practical purposes can be ignored for the sake of conversation. If I qualified everything I know with the phrase " I'm 99.999...% certain" it would be a waste of breath and quickly annoying. So, for the sake of brevity and clarity I simply use more absolute terminology. Do unicorns exist? No. Does god exist? No. Does heaven exist? No. Do I need, then to prove every single little thing or can we just get on with the conversation? None of us believe it anyway... what's the difference?
9.999.... =10
100% not 9.9999999999 :)
I was explaining both positions at once. And more or less saying that they are practically the same.
The difference is the Burden of proof and being able to ask the Christian to prove their claim. When you assert God, Heaven, a soul, does not exit, you are making a truth claim and therefore adopting the burden of proof. All we have heard shadow do is make silly claims, like any Christian would do, and offer no evidence what so ever for the claim he is making.
There is a world of difference between God, A soul, or Heaven "Does not exist" and "I don't believe in them." And we are still waiting for the evidence.
I do not believe in them and I do not have the evidence to support the claim that they do not exist at all, in any form, in any way, anyplace in the universe. Apparently neither does our Mr. Shadow or we would have heard something other than assertion from him,
I fully agree, other than wild assertions and a Black Swan Fallacy, Mr. Shadow has offered nothing at all for his position. "I never saw it, it does not exist."
Ahhh... apparently English is not Mr. Shadow's first language. Either that or he has escaped his bindings and is playing on the computer again. I'm betting he is missing the nuance between "I Know X. does not exist." and "I believe X does not exist."
Cognostic,
"I'm betting he is missing the nuance between "I Know X. does not exist." and "I believe X does not exist."
If you accept the possibility that X (heaven) exists then you are accepting the possibility that some idiot in ancient times knew more than you know now in the modern world. So why would you accept some ancient idiot's opinion when he didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground? People thought that stars would fall onto the Earth. As a modern educated adult in the year 2018 should you accept their opinion about that? After all, when you look at the night sky with your naked eyes you see the same tiny lights that they saw. Why do you reach a different conclusion (if you do)? Do you accept the possibility of every version of heaven or just one? If you reject all but one why can't you reject it as well? Would you be happy in a native American Indian happy hunting ground chasing buffalo and deer across the hills?
"The difference is the Burden of proof and being able to ask the Christian to prove their claim. When you assert God, Heaven, a soul, does not exit, you are making a truth claim and therefore adopting the burden of proof. All we have heard shadow do is make silly claims, like any Christian would do, and offer no evidence what so ever for the claim he is making."
Yes. This is BOP 101. My whole purpose (me personally) for avoiding "there is no god" is in fact to be sure that theists can't say "ah-ha, prove that" when I adopt the burden of proof. Amongst fellow atheists, however, I don't feel the need to tread lightly and choose the particular words. Maybe shadow does the same... then again, I've never seen him debate a theist, so who knows... maybe he does, in fact, keep that burden.
@Diotrephes " If you accept the possibility that X (heaven) exists then you are accepting the possibility that some idiot in ancient times knew more than you know "
No one said anything at all about accepting the possibility that heaven exists, Do you understand the word "possibility?" Possibility based on what. The argument for a heaven existing is rejected. It has not met its burden of proof. If someone can present an argument for the non-existence of an un-falsifiable heaven I would like to see it. You do not get to assert that heaven does not exist without evidence. Some ancients probably were smarter than we are today, and a whole lot more talented as well. Have you built any pyramids lately? Raised as a starving peasant would you have come up with Euclidean Geometry? You can not discount ancient man based on what we know today. They have laid the foundation for all we do know.
If Shadow has evidence for the non-existence of heaven. I would love to see it. So far all we have is a claim and some weak comparison to ancient mankind.
Let's see the facts!
The "fact" that we don't have souls has nothing to do with whether or not a heaven exists. There are orthodox Jewish denominations that believe in Heaven as the residence of Yahweh and all his spiritual buddies, but also don't believe in souls or an afterlife.
@LostLocke "Fact that we don't have souls?" What FACT? Where are you guys coming from. Another absurd assertion without evidence. Another Black Swan Fallacy. Prove that there are no souls. Try to avoid the Black Swan Fallacy. Just because you have never seen one is not evidence one does not exist.
You have a mistake in understanding who should asked for a proof.
That's why I put fact in quotes. Just using his terms. ;)
Just saying that even if we agree we don't have souls, that in itself doesn't automatically disprove Heaven existing.
Cognostic,
"Prove that there are no souls."
It seems that you've crossed the line into becoming a full-blown theist. So where do you think you soul will end up?
@Cognostic
I fully agree, other than wild assertions and a Black Swan Fallacy, Mr. Shadow has offered nothing at all for his position. "I never saw it, it does not exist."
Ahhh... apparently English is not Mr. Shadow's first language. Either that or he has escaped his bindings and is playing on the computer again. I'm betting he is missing the nuance between "I Know X. does not exist." and "I believe X does not exist."
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEED A PROOF NOT ME because you are the one that claims their existance not me, accepting my opinion or not will not bother me. no heaven, no hell, no afterlife, no god 100% execpt in believer's minds. that's it and i don't have more time to talk in that topic again. i told my opinion and explained it one time, so don't need to explain you any more cause you are defensive and will not going to understand anything.
Shadow: "YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEED A PROOF NOT ME because you are the one that claims their existance not me,"
Where did you see me make a claim for the existence of anything? You are a liar as well as ignorant. I said, "You can not prove a soul, heaven, god, does not exist." That is a fact because the claims are unfalsifiable. The only person making claims is you. At no point have I asserted existence for anything.
Black Swan -- I mean Shadow: I told my opinion and explained it one time, so don't need to explain you any more cause you are defensive.
So, because you have an opinion you are correct? You explained nothing. WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE. Either support your assertion that souls, heaven and god do not exist or run away with your tail between your legs. You my friend are an extremely arrogant and ill informed atheist,
@shadow
Cognostic is not saying that he believes that heaven exists. He doesn't. He is saying that you are making a claim that heaven does not exist, which is a claim that adopts the burden of proof. What I said earlier, in your defense, is that you can say "there is no God" amongst atheists for the sake of simplicity of language, but making a positive claim for the existence or non-existetence of a thing does, in fact, give you the burden of proof. Usually the only time it's relevant is in a debate against a theist, but in this case, it seems, you are being cautioned against such language by an atheist.
I also stated that I, myself, use such language when I'm talking to people who already share my opinion. Amid I think it is all right. There is a good way to defend gnostic atheism, but I am not going to share that at this time. I will do that in a thread of my own. If you're interested stick around and I will defend that position with logic and science. I think you'll enjoy it.
@cognostic
I hope I made a good summary of your position.please correct me if I'm wrong. My best guess is that you are cautioning shadow against making positive claims so as not to adoot the burden of proof. And I hope I'm correct in my assumptions about your beliefs that I mentioned. Either way, my message to shadow is the same, but do correct me if I misrepresented you in any way.
Aposteriori Unum,
"...but making a positive claim for the existence or non-existetence of a thing does, in fact, give you the burden of proof."
That might be true in most things but in the case of religion and the existence of gods it's pure BS. If any gods of any kind exist it's up to them to prove their existence. And guess what? Not one god of any kind has ever done that since the first con man created him. Yeshua (Jesus) didn't do one damn thing that indicated that he was a celestial god. The Yahweh character of the Bible never did one damn thing either. Everything that happened to the biblical characters has happened to countless numbers of people throughout history. And Allah sure hasn't done anything.
Yes, there are gods on Earth right now but they are just ordinary men and women who command other people's total obedience and loyalty. That's all a god does. You might be the god of your family. But there are not celestial deities of any kind in this solar system. Just mortal people who act like what we think gods should act like.
And one thing is 100% certain and that is not ONE SINGLE PERSON has ever had faith in Jesus since his character was created 2,000 years ago. Hell, when the Israelites supposedly walked across the part Red Sea they immediately forgot about Yahweh and started worshiping an idol. And Noah's grandkids thought that he was full of BS with his and his son's story about being on an ark with all of the animals when the water covered the tallest mountain. They worshiped idols instead of his deity that he supposedly had personally contact with.
So it's safe to say without any qualification that real Gods as depicted in fairy tales do not exist, at least in this solar system. When one shows up we'll think about it but they will never, ever, appear.
@ But there are not celestial deities of any kind in this solar system.
Prove it. Why is that so hard. You don't get to say anything without qualification. That's not the way knowledge works.. No one said anything about an ark. That is diversion. No one said anything about the Red Sea. You are attacking a Red Herring. No one said anything about Jesus, Another BS attempt to get around the fact that you are unable to give evidence. Prove that Gods have not proved themselves to billions of believers all over the planet. All you are doing is sounding silly. You made a claim for the non-existence of a Gods. Prove your claim and stop avoiding the issue.
Cognostic,
"Prove that Gods have not proved themselves to billions of believers all over the planet."
Not one person has ever believed in Jesus in 2,000 years. If you think you do walk outside and command a tree to uproot itself and to jump into the nearest body of water. If it does as you command then by Jesus' criteria you will have been the only person who has ever had faith in him.
And what the hell has Yahweh ever done? Not a damn thing. And neither has Allah or any of the Hindu gods. When you croak you will be forgotten forever unless you have done something noteworthy. So be the first person in history to pass Jesus' test of faith. All ethnocentric deities are imaginary. When one shows up in all of its reported majesty then we can have a discussion. Until then you have absolutely nothing except a case of mental illness.
What in the hell are you talking about? Who said anything at all about Jesus. What in the hell is that? Obviously you have not talked to the billions of people who believe in Yahweh. Are you going to attempt to nullify each and every one of their claims. There are billions of claims and it will take you a lifetime. Why bring it up if you don't have evidence that none of it is true? Why are you jumping all over the place. Jesus, Hindu Gods, ethnocentric deities, or mental illness. All I asked you to do was prove that God does not exist. What evidence do you have for the non-existence of God. Stop beating around the bush and address the issue.
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