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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@John 61X Breezy: "I don't think it's as complicated as you suggest."
Explain the rules for definite and indefinite articles in English. Explain why we even need them when many other languages don't have them at all. What does "blue" mean? What does "gay" mean? What processes determine what these words mean, and how do meanings change?
I think mathematics is simple by comparison. The rules don't change. Six is always six. Four is always four. Mathematical formulae mean the same to Americans, Germans, Italians, Japanese... Poems don't. Jokes certainly don't travel well.
Think about babies learning language. It actually takes several years just to master the spoken language. Reading and writing require years of schooling. And once you age past that initial language acquisition spurt, learning another language becomes very difficult indeed.
"I would expect God to be able to easily do it"
LOL. Well god would have to exist first. On the other hand, if we build a computer with all the functionality of a human brain,how many steps would we be from creating a god?
Reading and writing aren't really essential to language. You might as well throw in morse code and braille if that's the case. As far as babies go, not to be dismissive, but I think its out of the question that they learn language quickly and without trouble. You could say that learning a second language is as difficult as learning math, since they both hinge on practice and memorization. But that first language comes naturally to us.
Also the changes in language wouldn't matter to a computer until they occur. Still, isn't it the case that even when the rules change, they change in expected ways? Consonants tend to soften, vowels drift in certain directions, and meanings change in understandable ways. Even the mistakes we make, make sense. I don't know why English uses articles and other languages don't, but its probably because they have a way to compensate, or are on their way to having them. For example, isn't it the case that English used to have "ye" as the plural form of "you" or thou. We lost that. Other languages have a way of distinguishing if "you" refers to a person or a group. However, people have begun using "ya'll or yall." Despite it being mostly slang and informal, it is essentially replacing the once lost "ye." So my point is that despite the changes, there is enough of a pattern and logic behind those changes that a computer can make sense of them.
Obviously God would have to exist first, but if He does, logically He would have access to information and technology far superior to ours. He would understand our brains, and our language far better than we do. So, if we are able to emulate a universal translator, with our primitive technology, it wouldn't make sense for you to call the idea fiction or fake.
I notice that people tend to do that a lot. When God is said to have done something, they call it magic, without realizing we can pretty much do the same things now. Like the virgin birth story with Mary, often criticized as magical. But we're at a point in history were we can do in vitro, I even read somewhere that we can take the DNA of two males and create a child.
I raised the question of articles as an example of the amazing complexities of language. Most people aren't even aware of them, but they mean something. They have a function. "I'll read a book" means something different from "I'll read the book." Every human language is full of subtleties like that. Only they aren't subtleties like trace elements in a compound or lines in a spectrogram. They only exist because we somehow agree among ourselves what they mean. A word isn't a scientific fact. It's a consensus, a meme if you like.
Sure babies learn automatically, but it's a process that takes several years before they can fully express themselves. It's not easy.
Language change isn't predictable. All kinds of factors are involved. If speakers of two separate languages find themselves living in one area, they'll form a creole, which will eventually become a separate language. English has been transformed by invasions (Vikings and Normans) and large-scale immigration (e.g., French Hugonots). We used to have lots of different word endings like Latin and German. They've all been rubbed off through interaction with speakers of other languages. A breakdown in communications, such as during the Black Death, can also isolate groups of speakers.
Ye and you used to be the plural/formal forms. Thou and thee were singular and informal. Like du and sie in German. Now we just have you. That's a problem when translating, because English has lost information that still exists in other languages.
Google Translate doesn't know anything about these issues, and I'm not sure how a computer could be programmed to handle human language naturally, except in very limited contexts. Nor am I sure whether a computer with sufficient brainpower to handle human language would be interested in talking to us.
Are you saying that because we can do amazing things like parthenogenesis, god must have been able to do them as well? That's true of all ancient deities. Zeus had some kind of giant tazer weapon. Hermes had super-fast travel.
The god you describe sounds like an ancient alien or perhaps a human super-genius with advanced technology back in the bronze age.
Well that's the thing about language. We don't need to be aware of the difference between definite and indefinite articles, we just use them naturally, without thinking. I still don't agree with your emphasis that it takes babies years to learn a language. A two year old taking three years to learn to speak coherently, is not the same as a university student taking three years to learn German.
Also notice what you just said: Language change isn't predictable, but then proceeded to explain the process by which two separate languages can clash, form a creole, and develop into a separate language.
Lastly, I just think the God I describe sounds real, or at least realistic. I think people do a disservice to themselves when they picture a bearded man in the sky, sitting on a puffy cloud.
@John: "Language change isn't predictable, but then proceeded to explain the process by which two separate languages can clash"
Exactly. Language doesn't evolve in isolation. There are all kinds of random non-linguistic factors involved that make the process highly unpredictable. How did a minor local dialect in Northern Germany evolve into the language of the British Empire, the US, and the Internet? Modern Japanese has been changed radically by the unexpected arrival of four US navy ships in Tokyo Bay in the 1860s. Language change has accelerated while differences between languages are becoming blurred due to the invention of radio, TV, and the Internet.
"we just use them naturally, without thinking"
That's exactly what I mean. We don't really understand how language works. We can use it and understand it, but we have only a very limited understanding of the processes involved. The really strange thing is that those processes are not limited to our own brains. They depend on reactions in other people's brains. "Naturally, without thinking" is a synonym for "by unknown means."
John 6IX Breezy,
This video, "How to Spot Fake Tongues" , explains it =
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gueRysAb0M
LOL.
"the listeners were able to understand, despite the language barrier. Obviously its miraculous, "
No not at all, obviously your claim can be dismissed out of hand since you offer no evidence or even explanation, so Hitchens's razor applies. However even if we ignored your assumption that it happened as described this doesn't evidence a miracle, and of course it should be obvious that even if we made the absurd unevidenced assumption you just did and assumed 'it must be a miracle' there is still not one shred of evidence offered to explain what might have caused it, so another assumption that this "miracle" is evidence for a deity.
Occam's razor can prune this one right down to some speculation about events we can't confirm, and nothing more.
"At least that's what comes to mind when I read it."
OK, have you read Harry Potter? You'd have a field day.
I feel like you're stating the obvious and then patting yourself in the back for doing so. There's no need to prune my statements down to speculation, my entire dialogue with Algebe began with an invitation to speculate about the event.
John 6IX Breezy " There's no need to prune my statements down to speculation, my entire dialogue with Algebe began with an invitation to speculate about the event."
Sheldon >>Then you need to make it clear you were simply wildly speculating, rather than making a sweeping unevidenced claim that something was miraculous, implying a supernatural cause. As what you posted and I responded to was not speculation.
Sat, 12/16/2017 - 09:38
John 6IX Breezy What are your thoughts on "speaking in tongues" as its presented in Scripture? Because I agree that all Pentecostals are doing is just babbling. In Acts 2 however, its kind of a different and unique event. Its as if the disciples just spoke normally, and the listeners were able to understand, despite the language barrier. ****Obviously its miraculous,****
It's not obvious that anything was miraculous, as I said, anymore than that claim was intended as speculation on your part. If that IS what you intended then you worded it very poorly indeed, inexplicably so. However you could simply have clarified you had made an error, rather than trying to blame me for pointing out your error, if of course it was an error. If not then it wasn't speculation I was responding to, as we can see.
Well sorry, that seems like a fruitless discussion to have. The person for whom my comment was made, seems to have understood. That's good enough for me.
A private sensory revelation is by definition unrelatable and unprovable. I had a few of those in the early sixties. They were not god, mostly a mixture of French Blues, Bud and Bennies.
Unless you are a psyche don't go bandying around mental illness labels you have no idea of the diagnoses and presentations.
Most times that I have witnessed in Pentecostal and Spritualist Churches is a form of hysteria and self hypnosis, I have seen some very similar stuff in Zimbabwe, South Africa, Angola...oh man that was WEIRD and in Northern Australia. Nothing as strange as I saw in a Pentecostal meeting in Northern California...so nah AB its all bollocks, either infectious hysteria or just made up.
No evidence what so ever that any of this stuff is true or leads to truth. Anyone can babble in tongues or have magical insight. Anyone at all with sufficient delusion. How does that make it special?
"No evidence what so ever that any of this stuff is true or leads to truth. Anyone can babble in tongues or have magical insight."
There's a great deal of evidence to support the idea that 'talking in tongues' is simply learned behaviour. I think we can certainly apply Occam's razor to the claim it is caused by an external superhuman controlling power that teaches the brain of people to do this, and trim off the unevidenced part of the claim. This leaves us with human brains learning new behaviour, behaviour that helps an individual conform to group behaviour and beliefs and helps them feel part of that group with the associated safety and confidence such affiliations can provide.
Compare it to being raised in such churches all your life then when you reach maturity and start to think for yourself going against family fiends community and claiming publicly you never experience what they are claiming to, and think it must be guff. Most people don't generally seek out such confrontation, least of all among their family and community.
This seems apropos, and is a favourite quote of mine from the late author and polemicist Christopher Hitchens:
“Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.”
When these loons can demonstrate that their speaking in tongues is anything other than babbling then I will pay attention. Until then, it is a learned behavior and it is babbling.
I have ESP. I can tell you who won every world series, even without watching them. Just give me time to consult the God of research, Google.
My wife has an acquaintance on FaceBook who claims to be a psychic. She has even proven her abilities a couple of times by predicting events that happened in the past. It is an uncanny gift, I must admit. Sometimes I wish I knew what was gonna happen in the past. That would be cool.
The problem is that there is no way to test these claims made by people. As far as talking tongues goes the biblical reference is misinterpreted a great deal. I have been to charismatic churches where someone starts spitting and babbling and someone else's claims that they know what they are saying. I once purposely started spitting and babbling, and sure enough, some idiot claimed he knew what I was saying. It's fake as fake can be. Every claim of supernatural ability that I have come across was a sham. My guess that all of them are. Now, people do have hallucinations, but that has nothing to do with supernatural ability.
No one talks to a god even if they think they do.
No one has special powers, even if they claim they do. No one dies, sees "heaven" and comes back to life, no matter what they say.
Aw, c'mon, Myk! Open your mind a little. That chic on FaceBook predicted the past better than anybody I have ever seen do before. Sure, she was predicting her OWN personal past, so I have no real way to verify her predictions, but who could possibly make up some to those things she said about herself? Oh, and when I asked her to predict MY past, she was able to tell me very specific details. For instance, she said I was born as a male child, and that I grew up learning English. And I never told her EITHER of those details. My wife and I were amazed. No explanation for how she knew those things. So, say what you want, but I think the woman is "gifted."
@Tin-man
Hahahahaha!!!!
@Myk
Sure. Go ahead an laugh. Sent chills up MY spine. Spooky shit.
Tin-man "I think the woman is "gifted.""
Psychics, mediums, and televangelists are gifted alright--with lots of other people's money.
@Algebe. Re: Psychics
Ugh! Why y'all gotta be so dang cynical? She didn't ask me for any money as payment. She asked for DONATIONS. Totally different. Ask any church. Meanwhile, would anybody here mind co-signing with me on a personal loan to help with my donation to the gifted lady?
@AB Re: OP
I will be the first to admit I am by no means an expert in the field of psychology. However, before I retired, I spent about twenty years dealing daily with a very wide variety of personalities ranging from your standard "average Joe" all the way to raging psychotic lunatics who were in dire need of a straightjacket and a padded cell. So, while I may not have a great deal of formal teaching on the subject, I have quite an extensive amount of hands-on real-world experience in regards to mentally disturbed individuals. And knowing how to handle each individual appropriately often meant the difference between my going home alive and in one piece, or my being rushed to the emergency room or hauled off to the morgue.
That being said, it seems to me you are having difficulty distinguishing the difference between people with true "mental disorders" and people who are "normal" and might just simply be having hallucinations. Now, the interesting thing is that people who claim to "hear messages from god" and/or have revelation experiences could potentially fall into EITHER of those categories, depending on the circumstances. The human brain/mind is an amazingly complex and intricate system, and we have yet to discover and learn all there is to know about it and its full potential. Because of that complexity, its functions are susceptible to being disrupted by any number of influences, whether internal or external. A few examples would be drugs, radiation, physical injury, strong emotional reactions, and oxygen deprivation, to name a few. So, like Apost said, just because somebody claims to have a "vision" or they hear "messages from god", it does not necessarily mean that person has a mental disorder. The individual could actually be highly intelligent and normal in all respects, but under the right (or wrong) conditions, that same person could experience/hear/see things in his/her mind that he/she totally and honestly believes to be a real event. Yes, there are absolutely some seriously crazy mo-fos out there in the world who believe some truly crazy shit. One thing I did learn over the years, though, is that the ones who are bat-shit crazy and outwardly act that way are not really the scary ones. The scary ones were those who were bat-shit crazy but looked and acted relatively normal.... until you started having a conversation with them and then realized, "Uh-oh."
Anyway, AB, try not to get all caught up too much in the whole "visions" and "talking in tongues" nonsense. Any of those things can easily be explained away by any competent psychologist.
well I want to thank you for your service, I appreciate and respect the justice system, unfortunately to many have been harmed and disrespected. I know the chances that you took, Laying your life on the line every day!!!! One thing though that you usually come away with from your daily experiences is your trust in the almighty. You realize don`t you that something greater then yourself is at work in you. Yes its a fine line to draw and walk because you have to use psychology when dealing with the public .there are no easy answers here. What I was trying to convey in my thread is that sometimes some practices in the church border on the insane. I seen in my 62 years of living and some 50+ years as a Christian some spectacular things. I seen people in the Pentecostal faith see visions and actually believe that they were sensing God. They manifested this by behavior you would have to say was abnormal not rational considering the evidence .and I could go on and on citing practices both in the Pentecostal and roman catholic churches. that one would consider suspect. Like speaking in tongues and interpret the message being conveyed. The same goes for visions as you well may have read that a lot of biblical characters like the apostle to the Gentiles had saw visions. The apostle Paul mentions that he was caught up in the seventh heaven .I believe its in the book of Corinthians most likely the first book .well anyway we know that this is remotely impossible. So I am very careful when we talk about the supernatural .
Trust in the almighty? If he was so almighty, why the fuck could he not have just fixed those patients' problems? Or prevented them? You're a strange breed, AB.
@agnostic believer: "The apostle Paul mentions that he was caught up in the seventh heaven"
Seventh Heaven is a really expensive night club in the Roppongi district of Tokyo. I didn't know it had been there that long.
Theres also one in Sauchiehall Street Glasgow...but its the kind of place you wipe your feet when you leave...
Saul/Paul says in response to a direct challenge to his ministry that he was caught up in the third heaven, the garden. "2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven."
Paul was the first of the christian snake oil salesmen, realised that his message to to the gentiles was failing, the women and female slaves were following but the men; not at all. Tithes and converts were not forthcoming. He did his research and discovered although the message of end times and redemption was gaining traction the requirement to lop off ones adult foreskin and become a jew was less than attractive. Aaaand, Heyy PRESTO Paul had a VISION! and The Lord spoke to him, and sayeth, "forget the foreskins just get the money and power...." And so it has been for a couple of millenia. Visions seem to be very convenient throughout "holy" books. Most ex servicemen I know are not in the least religious, they've seen too much to accept the God of love bullshit. Especially when all sides in a conflict claim the almighty's imprimatur.
I've always wanted to parse through the different stories that talk about dreams and visions in the Bible. I have a number of books that talk about hallucinations, etc., so I always wanted to compare them to each other.
I will say that just from the surface, I think the only way you can say these visions were merely hallucinations, is if you think the authors later secretly exaggerated the accounts, changed them, mythicized them. The problem there is that it becomes a presumptuous claim, its unfalsifiable.
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