Claiming that my response was a "false dichotemy fallacy" and "false analogy fallacy".
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Resurrection and Watergate: Certainly a false analogy. 12 men did not testify that they saw Jesus risen from the dead. No one testified to that. Not one person. All you have are stories about people testifying written hundreds of years later.
They proclaimed the "Truth" (What truth?) for 40 years. ( Please provide any evidence at all outside mythology.)
"They would not have endured it if it was not true." Then you are also confirming Islam to be true, Buddhism to be true, Hinduism to be true and even Shinto to be true. What fucking morons do in the name of their religious values says nothing about the truth of their claims.
"12 Apostles could keep a lie for 40 years" "Impossible!" We are in 100% agreement. That's why none of the apostles wrote books and stories were only invented about them hundreds of years later. Excellent Point!
My response...moo.
Like Cognostic pointed out above, what you wrote is just the "regular" kind of false. It just isn't accurate.
THERE doesn't seem to be much historical evidence concerning the fates of each of the apostles that doesn't begin with "it is believed...", "tradition tells us...." or " it is widely believed..." because no-one really knows what supposedly happened to any of them much less if they even existed in the first place.
Then you need to deal with the fatuous comparison with Watergate.
Just to confirm what has already been written:
There is no evidence at all for the existence of the magical Jesus as described in the gospels.
There is no contemporary third party evidence for the existence of any of the Apostles, not one of them.
There are no contemporary accounts of stonings, torture etc except after 60CE when christians were accused of starting the Fire of Rome. Even then, no names are mentioned that correspond with any Apostles or disciples.
There is no historical basis for the claims of the resurrection or the persecution of any christians until after 60CE. In fact the reverse is true, Jews (and all christians were jews at that time) were especially favored in the Empire and exempted from the annual ritual of sacrifice (a pinch of incense) to the God Emperor.
So, hate to break it to you...but the claim is bollocks.
When I read the original post, I began to hear a voice from above proclaiming these words from the ancient past: "Verily verily I say unto you, I am not a crook".
My response to OP....
QUACK!
@ Nexus
A known fact is objectively evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt. You have demonstrated no objective evidence for a resurrection in there.
@Nexus
Beyond all the great responses other have posted:
How do you deny the prophecies of Muhammad? What about Confucius? Or thousands of others? They all make similar claims based on similar "evidence." Why is your particular god concept correct based on something as vague as what was written about what happened 2000 years ago in a different language and the entire narrative controlled by those that would benefit?
Or to badly paraphrase a great quote:
"Explain to me how you reject all other god concepts, and you just answered the question of how I reject yours.
You asked us to respond, so I respond with a question and a quote.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I was asking someone with wit and articulate language to help me respond to my friend here. I am not for the claim, I am against.
The responses you got that was towards you, use them in response to your friend.
I am not particularly good with words, but you can lean on others that are, Dawkins, Mark Twain, Neil deGrasse Tyson etc etc.
Also as this is the debate boards, everyone is going to expect without clear direction that you would be speaking for yourself in what is assumed to be debate.
@ Nexus
The comparison is irrelevant, as his claims are entirely unevidenced. The gospel claims are secondhand hearsay created decades after the fact - at best. His claims are as fare removed from a "known fact" as can be imagined. Known facts are objectively evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt. He has presented no evidence at all, so who cares how convincing he finds the unevidenced claims.
Seriously there is nothing to answer here. Even were it entirely true that 12 disciples testified and refused to recreant over 40 years of persecution, so what, this tells us nothing about the validity of their claims, and no one has any evidence they made such claims. Muslims immolated themselves along with thousands of innocent victims in the 9/11 attacks, does this make the belief they were off to heaven with 72 virgins presented daily remotely valid? If you care that what you believe is true then only one things validates claims, and that is sufficient objective evidence.
***sniff … sniff***
Is that more shit someone has thrown at our home?
***sniff … sniff***
Damnit!
rmfr