Did you ever consider how Lucifer called the light bringer along with one third of angels rebelled in heaven where there is no sin in the first place; Also why would god allow people to be born and then conscribe them to a place like hell? I have trouble as a Christian reconciling these two things .does anyone care to offer feedback
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I read somewhere and loved it.
Objectively, I view this God and Satan thing as an argument, a debate. I have to look at Satan as being the bigger [man] since God is saying all this negativism, and Satan simply thinks, "If all you can say is a bunch of crap, I refuse to comment."
rmfr
I also have to agree with the question you are asking since I have asked the same thing:
"Why would God be so pathetic and cruel so as to set Adam up for complete and utter failure?"
I have been a skeptic/atheist my whole life, and honestly, I have no answer other than it never happened. It is just like the rest of the Bible: all made up fairy tales.
Of all the die-hard Christian fundamentalists I have asked this question to, NONE have ever been able to provide an answer. This is perhaps one of those "Mysteries of God" that cannot be answered.
My answer is: It is all made up fairy tales.
And I am afraid that ain't gonna help you much.
rmfr
@arakish: "Why would God be so pathetic and cruel so as to set Adam up for complete and utter failure?"
Every tyranny keeps the people in line by ensuring that everyone is guilty of something, even if they don't know it. Even if you follow the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule, there's always the sin of Adam as a catch-all crime.
When everyone is guilty and afraid, the priests can use our fear to control us. Religion is the ultimate tyranny because it chains souls as well as bodies. And it's the ultimate lie. Nobody is born guilty of anything.
Satan is the most interesting character in the whole Judeo-Christian pantheon. I think he embodies all of the strengths and weaknesses that make human beings great and powerful--ambition, intelligence, drive, will, desire, love, wit. Take all those away and what's left is a sheep. It's no coincidence that Jesus is portrayed as a shepherd and his followers as a flock.
You'll also find those powerful human powers and weaknesses in the Greek gods. The difference is that the Greeks embraced those powers and weaknesses and sought to balance them. "Know thyself" and "Nothing too much" were chiselled on the wall at the Oracle of Delphi. We're only really human when we can integrate all facets of our character. Christianity seeks to dehumanize us and turn us into sheep.
I have a lot of sympathy for the Devil.
It's always confused me why people tend to cast Satan into a similar fashion as say Prometheus. From my understanding of the bible Satan wanted to be like "the most high god." In his rebellion is seems he wanted power not some sort of change for the better. I can see though how through giving the power of knowledge of both good and evil he might be characterized that way but in his rebellion I see someone wanting to become the next "supreme leader."
Part 1.
DC, I'm proud of you, my man. Those are two most excellent questions, and I know it must have taken a great deal of courage for you to post it. Congratulations, you have taken a good first step toward being at peace in your heart and mind. Funny you should ask that question about Lucifer, because my wife and I just recently discussed that very topic. Matter of fact, your question is even almost identical to the one I posed to her. "Consider this: So, according to the bible and belief, 1. God is perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful. 2. Heaven is perfect and the most wonderful place any being could ever hope to be. 3. Lucifer (aka: Satan, Devil, etc.) was basically God's "right hand man" or second-in-command, so to speak. And 4. They were all up in heaven together where there are supposedly zero problems with which to contend. Right? So, all that being the case, WHY would Lucifer ever want to rebel along with so many of the other angels???" It stands to reason that Lucifer must have known pretty much everything there could be to know about God, so if that God is sooooo perfect and loving and caring about everything, then what caused the uprise? I mean, was Lucifer just sitting around bored out of his mind one day and decide, "Fuck this! I'm tired of everything being happy and perfect. I wanna go raise hell somewhere! Who's with me?" Which begs another question: If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and actually made Lucifer and the other angels, should he not have seen that coming? Moreover, once the rebellion did start, how hard would it have been for an all-powerful God to simply "snap his fingers" to stop it and make all the rebels simply vanish out of existence? That would have made perfect sense, right? But, nooooooo. Apparently that was too easy. Instead, God decides to just cast Lucifer and the rebels down to a special place called Hell, but then grants them permission to roam the earth and torment humans and interfere with God's "Perfect Plan". WTF???
So, you see, DC, you are not alone when you say none of that makes sense. (To be continued...)
Conflict is interesting, in fact some people claim that the struggle to survive gives us a base level of meaning. A perfect place like heaven would be quite boring then you throw the curse of immortality on top of it. Heaven might be a sort of hell.
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RE: Thomas "Conflict is interesting..."
Ya know, it's funny you should say that about heaven, because I have wondered about that before myself. Not that I am wanting to die any time soon, but at the same time I do believe living forever may not be all that great a thing. And I have always had this picture of heaven in my head of everybody walking around in white robes with halos over their heads being all nice and ooie-gooie all the time. Hell, I don't like being all nice and ooie-gooie for very long periods of time even NOW. I don't even want to imagine having to do it for eternity. *shudder* lol
The scope of Immortality is so vastly beyond our comprehension (I can imagine billions/trillions of years) no matter how interesting heaven is it will eventually get stale and boring and there will eventually be no way to satisfy any interest. There is a quote about people who long for eternity but are bored on a Sunday afternoon.
Thomas Becker,
All heavens and paradises are not the same. It all depends on which ethnocentric religious fairy tale you believe in.
The biblical heaven is a 1,500 mile-sided bejeweled golden cube behind a tall wall on a waterless planet that doesn't have any darkness. The constant activity is just singing Yahweh's praises for all eternity. Food consists of one piece of fruit a month and some water. There are no marriages or other distractions. It's just praising Yahweh for all eternity. But you have to be able to pass through one of the twelve gates dedicated to the twelve tribes of Israel. Gentiles could end up as slaves since the fairy tale in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud says that each Jew will get 2,800 Gentile slaves in the afterlife.
Dear Devout Christian,
You are worrying about discrepancies in a myth, a fairy story. Please do not waste any more of your time or mental energy trying to solve non-existent problems.
THANK you so much tinman this is 1 of 2 questions I`m glad you addressed above. Also the second question goes like this; How can God make humanity only to see it fall and the humanity goes to hell.Why even bring the people into existence at all if your going to know the outcome is horrible for them .wailing and gnashing of teeth. It doesn`t make any sense.
You're right. It doesn't make any sense. Step away from the church and leave all that behind you and you will be free. Take it for what it is. Myth and fairy tale.
Part 2. (Sorry for the interruption. Puppy dog had to go outside to do his business.)
Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah...
Arakish made a great point about the Devil being the bigger man. It rather follows along with the comments I heard from a comedian recently. (Can't remember who. Jim Jefferies, maybe?) Now, keep in mind, this is from a comedic anecdote, so please bear with me. If Satan is evil and the ruler of hell, and all the evil people in the worlds are supposedly "Satan's workers" who do all the bad things for Satan, and God sends these evil people to hell..... (see where I'm going with this?).... Then how bad could hell be? I mean, why would Satan punish and torture those people who were out there doing his work? (I know, I know. It was funnier when the comedian said it. You get the point, though. lol) Ever see the movie "The Devil's Advocate"? Marvelous film. Al Pacino is phenomenal in it. Anyway, there is a scene toward the end during the final confrontation where Pacino gives a fantastic speech to Keanu Reeves about God vs. Satan, and it makes soooooo much sense. It is great. Wish I knew how to download stuff on here, but I haven't figured it out yet. Maybe somebody else can find that scene and post it. (hint-hint) Point being, there are two sides to every story, and it is interesting that we never seem to hear anything from Satan's point of view. Just a little something to ponder.
All that being said, DC, it is important you know it is OKAY to question things that do not make sense. More to the point, you SHOULD question things that do not make sense. You have a brain. Use it. When presented with something that defies all logic, reasoning, and common sense, then chances are there is something wrong with it. It really is just that simple. Moving on to your second question concerning sending people to hell... (To be continued...)
Tin-man,
People keep getting their Middle Eastern ethnocentric religious fairy tales mixed up. The version you gave isn't biblical; it's more Islamic.
In the biblical fairy tale when people die they go to one of three places: death; the sea; or to hell. All three are temporary and every one gets out on Judgment Day. And just because someone was in hell it doesn't prevent him from getting into the golden cube. After Judgment Day hell, death, and the bad souls are tossed into the lake of fire. So there's no eternity in hell.
In the Islamic fairy tale when people die they stay dead until Judgment Day and then everyone gets resurrected. At that time the "good guys" get their own 60 mile wide pearl shell paradise with all of the goodies, including a herd of cute boys. Most of the women end up in hell. The Islamic hell is where the "bad people" & most women are tortured for eternity. The Islamic hell is super bad with no parole.
Howdy, Dio.
Thanks for the info. While I am aware each religion has it's own versions of heaven, hell, etc., I've never really gotten too involved in the specifics of each. Fascinating stuff, though, when presented. I hate to admit it, but I am pretty dang "lazy" when it comes to doing in-depth research. *yaaaaawn* (Excuse me.) Nevertheless, I always enjoy learning new facts about things that interest me. (Sounds like a bad contradiction, right? lol) Anyway, just wanted to say "hi" and thanks for the extra bit of knowledge.
On a side note, by the way you described heaven and hell.... I'm honestly not sure which would be worse. lol
Because poorly written fiction doesn't always make sense?
Part 3.
Personally, the hell issue isn't really all that complicated for me. Basically, it comes down to this: If you are a perfect God... ALL-knowing... ALL-powerful.... All-loving... All-forgiving... then you: A. Create perfect beings who wouldn't even know what sin was, much less HOW to commit it. B. Provide those perfect beings with a perfect world where there are no dangers or diseases. C. Would most certainly NOT tempt or trick your creations into doing the things you do not want them to do. D. Would NOT allow a being like Satan to run about freely and spread chaos and mayhem among your innocent creations. (OR, better yet, just DON'T MAKE A DEVIL!) And by doing these things (which the God of the bible should easily be able to do), you have totally eliminated any need for hell in the first place.
Let me ask you something: Do you think it is right that a psychotic mass-murdering sadistic rapist sociopath is allowed to go to heaven and be rewarded for eternity by simply saying, "Oops. Sorry, God. My bad. Please forgive me."? Meanwhile, the innocent young lady he slaughtered who is a mother of three and a decent upstanding parent, citizen, and human who never harmed another person in her life goes to hell simply because she did not believe in God and/or Jesus? In what mind or context does that make sense in any way, shape, or form? The piece of shit murderer gets rewarded with eternal bliss while the innocent young mother gets brutally tortured forever. A loving, caring God? Really??? Please...! Again, if it defies all logic, reason, and common sense, then perhaps there is something wrong with it.
Now, keep in mind, this applies to any and all religions, not just Christianity. Unfortunately, Christianity just happens to be the biggest target most of the time. Here is something to consider, though: You are a Christian, right? You believe you die, go to heaven, meet St. Peter at the Pearly Gates and he checks to see if your name is in his book to let you in. (Or something to that effect.) But what if you die and end up being face to face with Allah? Or maybe even Oden? What if you get to the afterlife and there sits Osiris with his scales waiting to weigh your heart against a feather? What will you tell them when they ask why you did not believe in them? Because, you see, regardless of your religion, you are really just an atheist to all the other thousands of religions out there. And every single one of those religions believe wholeheartedly that THEY are the only "one true way." Chew that over in your head for a bit.
So, what IF there is REALLY a place called hell that God sends people to be tortured for eternity? And his ONLY reason for sending a person there is because that person does not believe in Him or ask Him for forgiveness, regardless of how kind and good that person may be, even though God LOVES that person more than anything else in the world. I would say that God is petty, insecure, and just a touch demented. And that means (to me, at least) that God is not worthy of respect, much less worthy of my worshipping Him. I have risked my life numerous times putting people in jail for offenses far less heinous than what the God in the bible has condoned and ordered. And if he wants to send me to hell, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it since he is all-powerful and such. But one thing for sure, I refuse to lower myself to his standards to prevent him from doing so. Hope this helps you in some way, DC.
You know tinman, I been trying to pull away from the Roman Catholic Church for some time now. BUT I keep going back; I stood away for 8 days this year, But then I missed the prays and the few friends that I have .I have some legitimate Questions that so far aren`t being addressed by the clergy. I am in favor as of this present moment in entering an agnostic position. I would lose some things dear to me but isn`t most of life a sacrifice if you want to correct things. Change is needed in my life. And I`m going to make them starting this very night here in new York State. Thanks again for taking the time to address my questions I really appreciate it a whole lot.
Yeshua (Jesus) said to do your praying in a closet by yourself. He hates public prayers. Matthew 6:5-15.
Satan vs. God was great drama in the centuries before CGI. These days, Mephistopheles is such a mouthful!
DC, my friend, you are most welcome. And allow me to let you in on a little secret: Nobody (and I mean NOBODY) on this planet TRULY knows how we all got started or where we will end up after we take our last breath. That is just a plain and simple fact. But that fact is nothing to be scared of. For some unfathomable reason, though, WAY too many people tend to get WAY TOO caught up in focusing so much on the past and so much on the future that they fail to simply wake up and enjoy all the wonderful things available in the here and now. You are here NOW. You are alive NOW. Don't waste this opportunity. Wake up, buddy. Start being happy for a change, because - quite frankly - you sound like you have been miserable for quite some time now. Will you lose friends? Possibly. Quite probably, actually. But if they do not understand, then what kind of friends are they in the first place? Besides, that will lead the way for doors to open that will allow you to make new friends. Will you feel strange and a little "off-center" for awhile? Ohhh, yes! Most definitely. Any major life-changing decision will leave a person feeling disoriented for a bit. Normal and natural. But, hey, that is why we have places like this site, right? And I don't know much about New York, but I'm pretty sure they have their fair share of support groups and meeting places. So, yeah, try something different. Make a change in your life. As my wife has told me before relating to a few mutual friends we have, "I don't understand why they are always bitching about their lives so much when they never do anything to change it. How the hell can they expect things to change by doing the same thing over and over again?" (She is an awesome woman.) As for God, Satan, heaven, hell, and the insidious religion scam as a whole, you asked a question awhile ago that pretty much answers itself. I didn't say anything about it before, because it was so obvious at the time I failed to catch it. You asked (and I paraphrase), "Why would a perfect, loving, caring, forgiving, all-powerful, all-knowing God intentionally create a race of beings KNOWING they would misbehave and that he would end up sending so many of his "beloved children" to a hell HE created to watch them burn in agony for eternity." See? That question answers itself. Yes, why WOULD a LOVING, CARING, and PERFECT God do such a thing? Think about it. Use your brain. Think for yourself. It will be tough, no doubt. But if it were meant to be easy we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Hope it all works out for you, my man. We are always here to lend an ear if you need it. Take care.
Here's the problem Devout. How can I believe you?
I gather that you are confused. I see that you are searching and finding NO answers. I guess that is why you are really here. What do you think an atheist is going to tell you? Atheists are highly functioning independent people. That is a hallmark characteristic of an atheist.
Also, atheists don't recruit or try to convert people. We know that you have to come to reality, not have it sold to you or forced upon you. We actually don't need to defend or even represent atheism and we really don't try.
I understand that you fear the loss of friends and of being ostracized by your society. Can't help you. All I can say is that you have to be true to yourself, not to what people expect you to be.
Just know that almost every single atheist was at one point religious. It's like being gay and pretending that you are not or actually trying not to be gay.
If religion, god, the bible, or parts of it don't make sense to you, well guess what? It probably just doesn't make sense to anyone but they pretend that it does.
We go through life being held accountable for almost everything we do, say, are. If one applied those same criteria to religion, one would get the answer that they need. NOT the one they want, but the one that they need.
Let's assume there is a just "god" and an afterlife in contrast to the Christian faith. The big issue with hell is the level of punishment and the eternity of it. A just "god" in my opinion would punish people according to their crime but only if somehow they escaped punishment in this life i.e. If person #1 gets caught stealing and goes to jail and serves their time then why punish something like that in the afterlife? Now let's say they person #2 doesn't get caught for stealing and is handed down punishment from "god" in the afterlife the punishment shouldn't be torture and it definitely shouldn't be eternal. The Christian god's judicial system is pretty barbaric even by human standards.
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To Thomas Becker
Dear Sir, I am not christian. I am an atheist in every way shape and form. That being said, I must correct your understanding of how one receives damnation instead of eternal life and what sin and or transgression a person is guilty of that damns them to hell.
The sin that all humankind is guilty of, the ONLY sin is "knowledge".
The only way to not be damned to hell is to accept christ as your savior.
It's just that simple. You can murder, rape, steal, fuck your sister or your brother or both and it just doesn't matter. One does not get into heaven on deeds but they are not denied eternal life on deeds as well.
There is but one sin and only one salvation.
Now I don't agree with the church, BUT If I did, I would make sure that that message reigned supreme. There is one sin and only one salvation. No tricks, no special ceremony.
Of course, it also proves that prayer means nothing even to christians. You can ask to be forgiven, confess, pay restitution all you want and it means absolutely nothing.
mykcob4 I was replying to the Christian guy but I grew up a "Baptist" and they tend to teach it differently. In fact I met someone who also grew up a "Baptist" and they even had a different concept of salvation and damnation. I can see your point though and thank you for your comment the concept of knowledge being the original sin is a great foundation for an argument that I haven't considered.
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mykcob4,
According to the fairy tale in Revelation 20:13-15 (KJV) the criteria on Judgment Day is deeds (a person's works) =
"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
In Revelation 22:15 (KJV) people with bad deeds are excluded =
"15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
Thanks, Myk and Thomas. I appreciate the back-up.
Sounds like you're having "spiritual crisis" (I prefer the term "spiritual awakening") Yes it us a big contradiction isn't it. The type that will make you question everything. You may be getting towards outgrowing the need for God. Good for you.
Devout Christian,
The first step in loving peace is realizing that you hate war. As the first step to gaining knowledge is admitting to yourself that you are ignorant.
You say the doctrine doesn't make sense to you. Well, that would only indicate that you are sensible, because most of it doesn't make any sense. Set aside scientific inquiry and empirical evidence for a moment and simply think critically about that which your indoctrination espouses as truth. In who's experience does it make logical sense to create and have the power to change, choose not to change, and procede to blame your own creation for the flaws it contains? Build a house, imperfect and weak, and then blame the house for having imperfections and being weak? No. It is the fault of the builder, I think we can all agree. Expect love and companionship from your children and yet choose to remain distant and obscure from most of them their while lives... And still say you love them and wish they loved you back?
Why write a book, or inspire one to be written in the iron age of man and rely on it as your only source of communication? Why write at all, if the message was so important that all should know about it, that if they don't their eternal lives hang in the balance? Why not speak to them, teach them, comfort them?
But of course it doesn't make sense. It's absurd.
And, coincidentally(or not) leave no unequivocal evidence of your existence and, in fact, evidence that is entirely contradictory to the very message you wish to deliver... What a mess. Especially for an omnipotent being. Because even the badly more ignorant and fallible creations can see the flaw in this method.
I implore you to think critically of this. Embrace your doubt. Understand your foolishness. When you do, only wisdom can you gain.