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"We can't produce the body of Jesus."
And I'll bet no matter how much you dig around England, you'll never find Sauron's severed finger either.
Lostlocke
The difference is. Jesus claimed diety over life and death. Is also most documented in antiquity. Has a ton of credit and authority. It is possible that it is the single reason for everything. With massive credibility behind it.
And I guarantee that no matter how much digging you do, you ain't never going to find the body of Noah or Abraham or Moses or Joshua or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or ...
That don't mean shit.
rmfr
Agreed that the bible and the story of jesus is one discussed by millions over the centuries. But going back to the actual actions and documentation that it actually happened, zero proof or collaboration by sources outside of the bible.
Numbers of interested parties does not make anything truth. It just makes it a tale told by millions.
Argumentum ad populum
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
The biblical claims about Jesus are not documented at all, let alone the most documented in history. Not one single word was written about Jesus until decades after he he was supposed to have died. Most scholars are prepared to accept an historical Jesus existed, I don't particularity care as his existence wouldn't validate any supernatural claims about him.
" people saw him die and buried in a tomb."
Not one word in the new testament is an eye witness account of the stories in it. Did you not know this? it was cobbled together years later, and the canonical books that now make up the new testament were selected arbitrarily by early christians centuries later.
"over 500 eyewitness saw him again alive and ascend into the sky. "
Again not one word in the new testament is an eyewitness account of anything described in it, seriously did you not know this?
"this is in the most creditable source in antiquity. "
Not even close to being true, and no biblical scholar would support such a claim. It's ridiculous hyperbole.
" That covers the origins of life and death and deity."
That amounts to a string of wild unevidenced claims, nothing more.
" If this is not true?"
If it is true then demonstrate the best objective evidence you have for it? Simply claiming 500 people saw it 2000 years ago is meaningless.
" nothing else stands up to the credibility of the Bible. "
Not even close to being true, but irrelevant anyway as no book can validate it's own claims, that is axiomatic. I asked for objective evidence.
"This guy really breaks it down perfectly. if you want the stats on these facts."
You haven't presented a single fact, just unevidenced claims, and I asked you to demonstrate objective evidence for your belief a deity is real. I am not going to research it for you. If this guy has offered evidence you find compelling then offer a cogent synopsis, using concise quotes where you think it is apropos. However I have to be honest, and no offence intended, but you donlt seem to have any idea what constitutes objective evidence, and have a wildly inaccurate idea of the veracity of the bible's claims and the provenance of it's authorship.No one knows who wrote most of the bible.Here:
"The New Testament is a collection of Christian works written in the common (Koine) Greek language of the first century, at different times by various writers, In almost all Christian traditions today, the New Testament consists of 27 books. The canon or list of the Books of the New Testament is not found anywhere in any book of the Bible. It was the united Catholic Church which defined the 27 Books canon. The first time we find the complete list of the 27 books of the NT is in Athanasius, eastern Catholic bishop of the IV Century. The first time that church councils gave us this same list was in the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in north Africa and the pope Innocent I ratified the same canon in 405, but it is probable that a Council in Rome in 382 under pope Damasus gave the same list first. These councils provided also the Canon of the Old Testament, which included the so-called apocryphal books"
"The original texts were written in the first and perhaps the second centuries of the Christian Era, in Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean from the conquests of Alexander the Great (335–323 BC) until the Muslim conquests in the 7th century AD. All the works that eventually became incorporated into the New Testament are believed to have been written no later than around 120 AD. John A. T. Robinson, Dan Wallace, and William F. Albright dated all the books of the New Testament before 70 AD.Others give a final date of 80 AD, or at 96 AD."
The four canonical gospels comprise of synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) plus John. None are eye-witness accounts of Jesus' life and they are all written in Greek, not in the native tongues of anyone who met and followed Jesus. Many of the stories in the Gospels are copied from Greek god-man legends, especially those of Dionysus and Osiris. Although we now know them by the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they are all originally anonymous. They were selected by early christians from 200 original "gospels".
You're claim that are the "most historically creditable we have" is woefully untrue.
Sapporo
Please let me know if this answers it for you. It covers exactly what your talking about and how the Bible is a very dangerous book. But truth has an order.Watch "Kris Vallotton - The Book leads to the Author" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/LA6Pnqu86oE skip to 8 minutes in. It will only take 6 minutes of your time.
So you were depressed, suicidal, and hearing voices. Somehow you think this was a revaluation from God. Many people in psych wards all across the nation have exactly the same experiences. We do not pay attention to them or credit their delusions with any credibility at all. The ramblings of the drunk and depressed are not evidence for anything.
@"The vision showed me that it was I, who was responsible for the hurt." Any half way intelligent person could have told you the same thing. There is no revelation here.
Dude - you were in pain, you turned to the God idea, and now you think you have found the answer to all the questions of the universe. Being delusional and in an alcoholic stupor is not a way to find truth.
Cognostic.
As I was writing it. I thought someone would comment this. I question it as well. Tin man mentioned in another post. That it is possible for someone to just change for the better. Without the need for deity. That may very well be what happened and I didn't need to describe my vision and voices to anyone. Maybe I had a moment of clarity and I saw just what I wanted to see. I really can't call it proof for others. It's just what happened to me. That's all. I didn't care about God. I wasn't praying. I was demanding. I really just wanted to pass out into nothingness. I didn't want any kind of life. I had many overdoses before. Never really caring if I died. But this time I was intentional. I don't know if it was depression. I just didn't care. I didn't want to do life anymore. I wasn't emotional until the end. I had just done everything I wanted to do and was done. I didn't realize that I actually had people who cared for me that I was hurting. I thought it was there fault for caring so much for me. It was kinda like I was bored and wanted to see if God would show up. maybe He did maybe He didn't. Either way I've given everything away. And somehow I have more than I've ever had. Some force in the universe keeps giving to me if I give to others.
That is what Christ told us to do. maybe it's just a coincidence? Maybe not? Try it out for yourself if you want?
I hear voices all the time myself.
Image says it all.
rmfr
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Lol yes, I have that meme.
@ Great Hope,
Let me tell you my drinking story, I'll make it quick.
My father was a raging alcoholic. It was not like the movie "Arthur". He was a mean drunk. I was a child growing up indoctrinated as a Lutheran - Missouri synod.
I prayed, believing as I was told that prayers would be answered if they are done earnestly and not for garish purposes. My answer, was no answer at all. He continued to drink and when he drank he was a complete fucking asshole.
Finally, his liver gave out and he died at 52.
So, your anecdote is less than meaningless to me. The only answer that makes sense is that no one was listening to those prayers and I was just dealt a shitty hand.
@skeptic
Ya we all go through stuff. My uncle used to beat me when he drank. I don't know if I've ever really been much of a pray guy. I don't understand how to do it or something?
If God was just going to fix everything. He would have just restarted Adam and Eve until He got a scenario where they didn't fall. But God wants us to have the knowledge of sin in heaven. Not the temptation. The ending is perfect.
@ Great Hope
The Jesus Myth
This is enough evidence to show that Jesus may have existed, but was not deitic.
When was Jesus supposed to have been crucified? The most quoted date I have heard is 30 CE.
Mark was the first gospel written. When was it written? Most bliblical scholars will tell you it was written about 55 CE. Twenty-five years after the death of Jesus.
Matthew was the second gospel written. When was it written? Most biblical scholars will tell you it was written about 60 CE. Thrity years after the death of Jesus.
Luke the third one was written in 70 CE. Forty years later.
And John, the last one, was written in 90 CE. Sixty years later.
Now here is where it gets tricky.
Why does the oldest copy of Mark only date back to 120 CE? And the others date thusly; Matthew = 120 CE; Luke and John = 150 CE.
However, let's just use the lies of the biblical schoars. Now I want you to look back into your life describe in exquisite details of an incident that occured 25, 30, 40, AND 60 year ago. Remember, I want exquisite details like in the gospels, but only your life.
The Jesus Myth is exactly just like the "Fish That Got Away" story. That fish just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and...
And did I tell you the story of the fish that was "THIS!!" big that broke my line and got away?
rmfr
Wow thank you for your comments. I'll have to read them all at work. I'm just going to drop this 13 minute video from what I skimmed through. This guy Jordan has really done his homework and puts a lot of work into validating the Bible. If you check out his website from the links in the description ReasonsforJesus.com you'll find some interesting stuff. Remember. We have the internet now, we can get any and all kinds of information. But, you won't ever know for certain until you want to know God... For yourself. I know it's a doozy. But maybe it's true and we don't have it all figured out with perfect correct detail, in order? Maybe lol.
Watch "Zeitgeist Debunked: Jesus Is Not A Copy Of Pagan Gods" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/30AunYXtYDg
I really hope you check this one out as well. Facts and stats about historical accuracy
http://www.hopechurchonline.com/sermon/the-bible-can-it-be-trusted/
I believe these two will answer your questions. If you take the time. Thank you.
Are you talking about this Jordan?
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/dr-jordan-b-peterson?page=1#comment-112663
rmfr
I don't know why I wrote Jordan? It's a Steven bancarz video. I've never heard of that Jordan you are referring to.
Trust me. You do not want to. Avoid Jordan Peterson like you would the Plague.
rmfr
Maybe it would be cool if you just asked for the spirit of Truth. Just say something like. "God, I don't even believe that you exist. I can't believe I'm even saying this. But if you exist and want me to see The Truth? Open my eyes to see. Thanks whatever" and see if something happens?
I don't know I like to have fun with it. It's really not that serious ( unless it is true) that's the only time it's actually serious. We can always go back to not believing. But something tells me that's not why y'all come to these forums.
@ Great Hope
"Maybe it would be cool if you"
Again I have to ask (as you have yet to give a coherent reply) Can you demonstrate or point me to any contemporary evidence for the existence of your Chrestus/jesus/yehshua as described in the gospels?
Yes I understand you to have had a personal experience (or delusion) of your "god" but that does not help me in any way.
So do try and stick to the point and demonstrate some sensible real time evidence and facts. (BTW YouTube links to apologists and preachers is not evidence of anything except absolute gullibility). Take a deep breath and explain to me how and why, you have the evidence that no one else seems to have discovered.
@ Great hope
"Maybe it would be cool if you just asked for the spirit of Truth"
Truth? Truth does not need a spirit, truth stands on it's own. Truth is reality, not invented fantasies.
In fact, that is the entire goal of the scientific process, to find the truth and weed out things that are not. The scientific process is solely responsible for the advances in humanity, from sanitary practices to irrigation to medicine to the internet. Religion has a horrible track record in either truth or advancing anything but power and control over the masses.
"Truth does not need a spirit.."
Great job lol.
Did you try it? Asking for the spirit of truth? That's the only thing you're missing? Scipture says thats the order to it. Then the videos might not sound like nails on a chalkboard, and you can actually watch the whole thing to get what the whole point is. If you haven't tried asking or watched the whole video? Then why won't you?
Getting myself into a suggestible state and pretending something is real in the hope I'll start to imagine it is real is not my idea of an objective exercise. Of course all religions make similar claims, and then claim their claims and "results" are unique. If I expunge thoughts slowly from my mind and focus on anything long enough it can produce a feeling of intense well being. This doesn't evidence the reality of the thing I choose to focus on.
Are you prepared to contemplate Zeus and part until he answers? I'm guessing not, and the difference here is I am applying a level playing field and you are not.
You also made some very inaccurate claims about the veracity of biblical claims about Jesus, and have not addressed my answers. The new testament is not a reliable historical account, not one word written about Jesus in the new testament is by an eye witness, or even written until decades after Jesus is purported to have died. This suggests not only bias on your part, but that you have not properly and objectively examined your beliefs and the claims they are based on.
Show me your best objective evidence that your deity is real, if it is compelling then I'll pay due deference to it, but I'm not going to proceed into belief because a religion's adherents claim it is what a deity wants. If a deity wants something form me then it can let me know anytime it is minded to do so, and I am 52 and so far nada.
@ Great Hope
":Did you try it"
well two can play your game of repeated posting...lets try again, this time could you please attempt to answer the question. If you can not, then fuck off and quit bothering intelligent and unduly kind people with your delusional fucking shite. Claro?
Again I have to ask (as you have yet to give a coherent reply) Can you demonstrate or point me to any contemporary evidence for the existence of your Chrestus/jesus/yehshua as described in the gospels?
Yes I understand you to have had a personal experience (or delusion) of your "god" but that does not help me in any way.
So do try and stick to the point and demonstrate some sensible real time evidence and facts. (BTW YouTube links to apologists and preachers is not evidence of anything except absolute gullibility). Take a deep breath and explain to me how and why, you have the evidence that no one else seems to have discovered.
If Jesus exists, no questions are necessary in order for him to prove himself.
Very valid points. I don't like it either. This whole life seems silly to me. I'll just say this last note, then I'm done. Forgive me, once more. I wish I could give you what you're looking for. I don't think I understand debating? We have the internet now. We can literally find every kind of information. It always boils down to what are we searching for? I'll have to spend some time searching for better sources than videos.
Unfortunately, I could only give you one glimpse of my story. I'm strong guy. My mind when I was growing up was distracted by trauma. Leaving me to become not interested in education, but rather intellect, experience, and adaptability. That's why I didn't bother with head knowledge, that should lead to an experience. I went straight for the experience. If it wasn't there? I would move on to the next. I did everything I could imagine by 25. I wish I could just type my whole story. But it's like every year of my life, was like 5 years of experience. That's why I say words are so primitive. Everytime I comment I have to tell myself to keep it short. Everyone I know tells me I should write a book. If we were interacting in real life, you would see so much more. I hope I didn't waste your time. Thank you for helping me understand debating. I am unprepared with source information. Other than the short version (hence the videos) My whole life has been experience. Not collections of information. My best effort is to just tell you not to give up on the greatest of hope. It's not 100% impossible that God does Love us, and if that's true? Most of this worlds messages, directly opposes that. If there is no afterlife, no correct placement? Then not even these conversations mattered. nothing mattered. We better hope that is the case. If we haven't welcomed the idea that God would show up, if it were in the forefront of our being, for as long as it takes. Not in your ways, but His.
I apologise for not debating better
*Winging it* *chuckles* #TYFYT
Yes. Wonderful ain't it? Yet, you need to learn SKEPTICISM and CRITICAL THINKING when looking for information on the WWW.
rmfr
@Great hope
I disagree with your assessment that life is silly and your suggestion (I think?) that the world is not an inherently loving place. In my view, the vast majority of people wish to create a world better than the one they were born into, and have a generally altruistic attitude. You said in your OP you are a very empathetic person - from what I've seen, you genuinely do seem to be a nice guy.
In regards the love of God - my actions would not change regardless of whether God loves us or not (or does not in fact exist). If morality exists, true virtue would come from acting morally regardless of any potential reward.
I sincerely hope you are not in a fatalistic state of mind - if you are, I strongly advise you get help for that.
IMO, whenever you have life, you should seek to maximize pleasure while doing as little harm as possible. I don't consider talk of an afterlife to be at all healthy for aspiring to that goal.
Thank you for your kind comments. I am humbled to have learned so much about myself over the last few days. Does anyone have suggestions of where or what I should start researching? I do have a critical and skeptical mind. I do question my beliefs all the time.
Nyarlathotep
What do y'all think about real magic, demonic spirits, possessions, occult summons, dark arts and spells and devil stuff? Any ideas on our pyramids? Interdimensional and Interstellar beings (assuming you don't think the world is flat lol)? I'm curious? Y'all seem to be well educated.
Thank you
@ Great hope
I am not attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs, but I hope you educate yourself more on topics dear to you.
I suggest researching the history of the bible. Not from the purely theist point of view, but the factual history on how the bible developed and was written.
But if I was to leave a lasting impression on you, I commend you. There was a point in your life when you hit rock bottom. You went into a do-or-die situation, and survived. You have your body to thank for keeping you alive. But before you went all-in with the drinking, you decided that if you survived, you were going to make changes and try to be a better person.
Think back to those dark days, and remember what you were thinking and had decided on.
You attribute your "salvation" to divine intervention. But I see it differently, because I firmly believe that even if you did not have those visions to direct you, you would still have come out a better person who was going to change his life.
I applaud you for your courage and strength. You need to pat yourself on the back more.
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