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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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To put it another way by the accident of you being born to a jw family you believe in that god. Theres no difference between you and the matority of theists who believe their version over yours because they were born to muslim parents or other types of christian parents or buddists etc etc. the only thing that unites you theists is the certainty that science doesnt mean anything. You dont agree on anything else.
"You don't agree on anything else." Exactly. Excellent point.
BTW, the Judeo-Christian bible, aka the King James version, wasn't created by a god. I believe that particular translation was created by King James because he was the king at the time and there shall be no other kings before him. lol.
There were probably thousands of other translations of the bible, in thousands of different languages, from all over the world thousands of years before man decided every word of the KJV was the inspired word of a god. By that time the translation was about as genuine as a thousand year old game of Telephone.
Not that it even matters because it's nothing more than a collection of stories.
Yep they all pick and choose what bits they like ignoring the context then when you challenge them say you cant argue out of context wtf that means nothing.
The fact that they use their faith as proof the books evidence then use the book as evidence of their faith is beyond absurdity.
This argument is very impressive, both sides have very good points, but I would like to recommend a book to you AlterEgo2- "The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies---How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths" (sorry, can't figure out how to underline). It is a great explanation for why you believe what you believe (you can even rationalize this book to correspond with your beliefs if you truly want, but I think it would be a good book for you to read, just as the bible and other holy books are good for atheists to read to understand how others think). Your rationalization of the bible, which other respondents have poked holes in, does not prove that the Judeo-Christian Bible is the word of the Almighty-God, but that your belief in this God will cause you to interpret things to fall into your perception of the world. Lmale is correct in saying that you only believe this because of your environment. (Sorry, I know this isn't really refuting your points, but I did want to recommend that book to you).
Alterego, I'm not sure where to begin listing references. I suppose the book I draw most of my information from is "The Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Coterrel. It contains literally thousands of entries about the mythology and prevalent beleifs in cultures of antiquety. Also on top of in depth information on beliefs, theres plenty of pictures of archeological evidence, and even has a list of referenced materials and scientists. But you know, since even for me its difficult to actually buy physical copies of reference materials, but you can always start by using wikipedia, and research the referenced material using google. Start by searching flat earth theory.
However, I disike posting lists of links. Mostly because it's not my job to inform you of the evidence. But well... some form of ignorance, laziness, or personal belief has impeded your ability to research on the internet. So here's a list of websites and books that trace a prevalent flat earth theory from the ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures through the Hellenistic culture of the ancient Greeks. It should be said though, that while in intellectual circles in ancient Greek cultures flat earth ideas fell out of favor, In the religious and uneducated groups a flat earth theory thrived well past the ages of Enlightenment and Reason, into modern times where small groups of religious conservatives still cling to the ideas.
"Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh and Others" by Steven Dalley.
"Sumarian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement of the Third Millenium B.C" by Samuel Kramer.
"Egyptian Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Godesses, and Traditions of Ancient Egypt" by Geraldine Pinch.
"Mapping the World: An Illustrated History of Cartography" by Ralph Ehrenburg.
"In The Beginnng: Creation Myths from Around the World" by Virginia Hamilton.
And lastly, I'd suggest you check out the Flat Earth Society website, so you can see for yourself that the majority of people who do still believe in the theory, are die-hard religious fanatics who take holy books literally. Not like the new age apologetics such as yourself, who contort the words into some form of reading that is metphorical.
Hey Alterego!
First, I just wanted to say how much I admire your research. You have an impressive knowledge on what you posted and I'm really impressed.
I also think it's important to point out that no one's opinions really change on these forums. They're mostly here so that we can all think about our own beliefs and challenge ourselves to really strengthen our knowledge.
All of that said, I think you need to look at the definition of "evidence" again. The definition of evidence is: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
What you've stated here can't be proven to be true or valid. There are no additional resources to corroborate the statements you've brought today. It's kinda like what they say about the internet, just because someone wrote it doesn't make it true. You'll need more evidence to prove your points.
BUT, I'd be happy to hear what else you find. I challenge you to look for more information in all areas not just the bible. Check out some scientists, or other religions ideas on the subject. The more views you have the more you can get a grasp on the subject.
Keep searching!
Well said clark tho i think alters just here to convert not to listen.
The bible made perfect sense to me when I finally realized none of it was true, Jesus did not exist!
The bible is nothing more than a brainwashing tool, if I had the internet 45 years ago I would of known
that the Jesus story is a copy of a copy of a copy, nothing but pure rubbish.
I'm finally free from the bondage of religion, free from the bondage of fear and guilt.
I still do what is morally right because it is still the right thing to do, not because of a imaginary dictator
in the sky.
Science, reason and reality triumphs over mythology and superstition!
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html
The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
Glad you mentioned morality dont you just hate christians lording theres 'superior morality' when actions past and present show the organisation is an evil cancerous growth. The business, and its a business, has broken 5 of its own 10 commandments and the only reason they haven't broken more is they dont apply to the organisation.
TRAVIS PASKIEWICZ:
Alterego, I'm not sure where to begin listing references. I suppose the book I draw most of my information from is "The Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Coterrel. It contains literally thousands of entries about the mythology and prevalent beleifs in cultures of antiquety. . . . . Start by searching flat earth theory.
"Myths from Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh and Others" by Steven Dalley.
"Sumarian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement of the Third Millenium B.C" by Samuel Kramer.
"Egyptian Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Godesses, and Traditions of Ancient Egypt" by Geraldine Pinch.
"Mapping the World: An Illustrated History of Cartography" by Ralph Ehrenburg.
"In The Beginnng: Creation Myths from Around the World" by Virginia Hamilton.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ALTER2EGO:
From which of the above books did you get the erroneous idea that Greek philosopher Pythagoras was accurate when he taught his followers that Earth revolves around a "central fire" and there were only 10 planets in total?
"Astronomy and the Pythagoreans
In astronomy, the Pythagoreans produced important advances in ancient scientific thought. They were the first to consider the Earth as a sphere revolving with the other planets and the Sun around a universal "CENTRAL FIRE." TEN PLANETS WERE BELIEVED TO EXIST IN ORDER TO PRODUCE THE "MAGICAL" NUMBER OF 10."
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Pythagoras.aspx
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And from which of the above books did you get the erroneous claim that the Egyptians thought the earth is a circle—despite the evidence that the Egyptians thought the earth is a square with four corners?
"The Flat Earth
by Donald E. Simanek
Early Ideas About the Shape of the Earth.
The ancients had many novel ideas about the shape of the earth. The Babylonians thought the earth was hollow, to provide space for their underworld. ***THE EGYPTIANS THOUGHT THE EARTH A SQUARE, (WITH FOUR CORNERS)*** with mountains at the edge supporting the vault of the sky."
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm
Do tell.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
As noted in my opening post, the prophet Isaiah wrote:
" {22} There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell, {28} Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding." (Isaiah 40:22 and 28)
Isaiah wrote the above in the 8th century B.C.E. It was not until the 20th century, more than 2,500 years later, that humans developed space vehicles and were able to hover far above earth and look down and see the "circle of the earth" that had been described by Isaiah. 20th century astronauts confirmed that, from outer space, earth looks like a circle that is "hanging upon nothing."
"He [Jehovah] is stretching out the north over the empty place, HANGING THE EARTH UPON NOTHING;" (Job 26:7)]
Moses wrote the book of Job in the 15th century B.C.E. or some 700 years before Isaiah's writings. Neither of the two men had the ability to view earth from outer space at that time in history.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego...
Interesting if primitive perspective you have there....
You obviously see the Bible as being inerrant ......
a somewhat "minority" position in this day and age ...
still it is your prerogative to believe anything you like .....
just as it is my prerogative to point out the ,less than accurate sources you quote from....
You claim certain interpretations of Isiah 40:22 & 40:28 ...
completely ignoring the obvious contradiction not only within the OT as a whole but in Isiah itself.....
quote:
"....He does not tire out or grow weary ...."
while at the same time......He is weary of people and their iniquities.
I am weary to bear them. ............Isaiah 1:14
Thou has wearied me with thine iniquities. ............Isaiah 43:24
And he is weary with repenting.
I am weary with repenting. .................Jeremiah 15:6
You see....contradictions.....so ...Isiah....not really a reliable source to build any sort of case on......and if he is unreliable on this then why should we consider him reliable on anything...?
and by the way....I'd be inordinately interested to see any EXTRA BIBLICAL evidence you may be able to produce for the actual existence of the character you call Moses...
WATCHMAN SAID:
Alter2Ego...
Interesting if primitive perspective you have there....
You obviously see the Bible as being inerrant ......
a somewhat "minority" position in this day and age ...
still it is your prerogative to believe anything you like .....
just as it is my prerogative to point out the ,less than accurate sources you quote from....
You claim certain interpretations of Isiah 40:22 & 40:28 ...
completely ignoring the obvious contradiction not only within the OT as a whole but in Isiah itself.....
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ALTER2EGO's REPLY:
The time it took you to write the above would have been best spent explaining to the forum how Isaiah could have known that the earth is a circle when viewed from outer space--at a time in history when no human had the ability to view earth from outer space. Exactly when can we expect you explain that away?
As for your claim that the Bible is contradictory and that Isaiah itself is contradictory, I will deal with that in a separate post.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
@ AltEgo.....
"The time it took you to write the above would have been best spent explaining to the forum how Isaiah could have known that the earth is a circle when viewed from outer space--"
I can see why you might hold that view point......but it really isn't down to me to reinforce your particular fantasies....
But no !
The real reason that I cannot "explain" what you think Isaiah said ........is that Isaiah didn't actually say anything even remotely
indicating what you infer.....
Just for your edification and delectation.....what the quote actualy says is ,
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"...
You see... not an "apparent circle" ... not a "seeming circle"
See its just a circle..... a plain and simple circle.
Any other interpretation is in your head .... or should that be your elders heads .... its called "wishful thinking" or bias reinforcement....
in either case that ,I'm afraid , is your problem...
I look forward to your take on the rest of the contradictions in both the Bible in general and Isaiah in particular....
Oh ...nearly forgot.......
nothing on Moses ....yet?
no matter.... I can always ask you next time....
Alter2Ego - "how Isaiah could have known that the earth is a circle when viewed from outer space".
It isn't a circle when viewed from outer space; it also isn't a circle when viewed from anywhere else.
-----------------------------------
Alter2Ego - "Moses wrote the book of Job in the 15th century B.C.E"
Moses certainly did not write the book of Job, and the book of Job was certainly not written anywhere near 1500 BCE.
At some point alter2ego states that "a theory is an educated guess"..... I think that a lot of problems arise with the loose utilization of the word theory. Most of us have used theory in the vein of "I have a theory why my socks vaporize in the laundry to never return" however scientific theory is not the same at all.
Per wik: iA scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.
When talking about scientific endeavors such astrology or evolution, a theory is much more than "an educated guess"
That said, I cannot accept the notion of Isaiah using the word "circle" in a verse is any sort of evidence of Isaiah knowing anything scientific.
Furthermore, I also reject the idea that Isaiah was a prophet that singularly wrote the Book of Isaiah or that it was written in the lifetime of any human. Also, I reject the idea that what was written originally by whoever wrote it remains today unaltered.
This reminds me of the number pi. The BabylonIans had computed pi reasonably well in or about 1800 BC (recorded0. In 1 Kings 7 pi is given as 3 when describing the molten cauldron in King Solomons temple. Growing up, living in the farmland, many fence builders would estimate pi at 3 when building circular enclosures. Of course it makes on the fly calculations easier. The difference of course is that no one claimed that the the work of my Uncle Gus's cow fence was divinely inspired.
When God was putting together his Word, I'd like to think he would have hired some BabylonIan consultants, to get a more accurate value of pi than his understanding allowed for at the time.
WATCHMAN SAID:
@ AltEgo.....
The real reason that I cannot "explain" what you think Isaiah said ........is that Isaiah didn't actually say anything even remotely
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ALTER2EGO -to- WATCHMAN:
I figured you had no way of explaining away how Isaiah could have known that the earth appears as a circle when viewed from above--and the fact that he wrote it at a time in history when humans had not yet mastered space flight.
Simply denying by telling me "Isaiah didn't actually say anything even remotely" is not an effective rebuttal, particularly since the book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century B.C.E.--more than 2,500 years before humans mastered space flight and were able to CONFIRM what he wrote at Isaiah 40:22, as follows:
"There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell," (Isaiah 40:22):
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
https://www.jw.org/en/
@Alter2Ego
Sorry for butting in here...
"the book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century B.C.E.--more than 2,500 years before humans mastered space flight and were able to CONFIRM what he wrote at Isaiah 40:22, as follows:
"There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell," (Isaiah 40:22):""
How about, if you look at the horizon from a mountain, you seem to be in the middle of a large circle?
How about the simple fact that the the moon is round? If the Moon is round, then why not the Earth?
How about the simple fact that the shadow of the Earth on the Moon is round?
References are made in the Bible multiple times to "the ends of the Earth" as in the edge of the Earth, and how the world is flat and how it has four corners. Yet you see a single sentence containing the word "circle" as proof of divine knowledge in the Bible? A circle is flat, so... well, is that really all you expect in terms of divine knowledge?
I would certainly expect a lot more...
Alter2Ego.....
So glad you've returned.......please accept my apologies for my late response ...I've been "sans broad band" for two days ...
still I'm back now....
and so to business.....
As I previously pointed out...there is no way to "explain how Isaiah could have known that the earth appears as a circle when viewed from above".....
because that is not what Isaiah says.....this is purely your own perspective being imposed on the biblical text.....
a text which I might remind you is suppossed to be inerrant....
and the inerrant text says circle.....nothing more.....
unless you're now claiming the Bible is NOT inerrant...
so which is it ?...it can't be both ? can it ?
Now I'm sorry to further "burst your bubble" but....it is sort of what I do...so....
You say....
"the book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century B.C.E."....
NO.....no it wasn't.....What we have today as the book of Isaiah was constructed in three parts over a period of approximately 300 or so years....by three different authors.....
link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah#CITEREFSweeney1998
Now ,I suspect that you will not check out the link so I will just include some pertinent extracts for your consideration....
"The book is identified by a superscription as the works of the 8th-century BCE prophet Isaiah ben Amoz, but there is ample evidence that much of it was composed during the Babylonian captivity and later."
"Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of Isaiah;
Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), the work of an anonymous 6th-century author writing during the Exile;
and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), composed after the return from Exile.
While virtually no one today attributes the entire book, or even most of it, to one person,"
I'll add one further extract for the benefit of my fellow atheists who are unfamiliar with this book....... as it appears to be part of the foundation of the Yahwist monotheism...which was constructed after the return from the Babylonian Exile.
"Isaiah 44:6 contains the first clear statement of monotheism: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god".
This model of monotheism became the defining characteristic of post-Exilic Judaism, and the basis for Christianity and Islam."
I'd just like to thank you for returning Alter2Ego.....
.....Oh yes... nearly forgot....
did you manage to find any EXTRA Biblical evidence for the Moses character .?
The ancients saw the sun and moon as flat circles in the sky. They saw that if they stood in a flat area of the desert that the horizon was equidistant away in all directions, like a circle. They put the two crude observations together and surmised that the earth is a flat disc.
You should DEFINITELY avoid using big fancy words like "proof" until you have at least an inkling what they mean. When you use big fancy words that you do not understand, the most likely outcome is that you make an idiot out of yourself in public, as you have done here. I highly recommend that you pursue an elementary school education. It will greatly diminish the frequency and ferocity with which you embarrass yourself in public forums as you have just done. You're welcome. :)
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