From what we have to work with in this life, and with the ending left up to question and wonder. Our perspective is limited and ever changing. Therefore, are we not more than our thoughts?
"Oh my God, that kid has got guts!" "He might not be the brightest but, that man has a lot of balls!" "Look at that passion burning inside her heart!" "You can judge a person by the size of their heart!" The grinches heart grew two sizes too large" "I don't know how to explain it, it's like all the walls around my heart just melted away" "That boy has sure been through the ringer, but his spirit won't let him quit!"
Forget your anatomy class for a second. This is the stuff that makes life worth living. When someone says such things, no one questions it. Everyone knows what they are talking about. "It's what's on the inside that counts." All the greatest movies display this in some way, shape, or form.
So if you apply the "insides" (that thing inside you that makes you, you.) If you apply it to a Creator? It Should inspire the deepest sense of humility and gratefulness. Then a longing to experience The Creator and Giver of Life will follow. Then, and only then will you gain experience of all sorts of inward miracles and connections that will eventually spill out of you to help others. And if you have the courage it takes to remain humble without expectation? You will see your life radically change from the inside out "fills my cup to overflow" that's why the choice was given to you, not forced upon you. The Creator doesn't need to do any specialized instructions of specific personal evidence. It's already given you everything you need to make a choice. Your choice will affect the overflow of your heart. Also, as you grow you will learn and see things differently because you are not staying the same. You are testing the spirit\soul so you will constantly be living in the possibilities and trying new things that will be hard to explain, but none the less will be your experience. It's just that simple. Belief will place your thinking on a much higher plane of inspiration coming from the gut. You will be guided into all sorts of Truth. Do you not hear the calling?
Or you could just say I don't want to know The Creator and I'm not willing to do such spirit searching, I want it to do what I want then I'll choose to not like it, *cynical Chuckles* and be done with it. You'll be the most free being alive... And if you say you have tried this and I didn't work, I guarantee there was an expectation that wasn't met. (Seems to be the most reoccurring theme in all of history)
The ending is going to be worth at least an honest try. Exploration of every part of yourself is always beneficial.
So ask yourself, if I did want to seek God? What would that look like? Or just do what is expected and rip this post to shreds looking at only the impossibilities. Which btw has no evidence....
@Sheldon
Before your ocd kicks in just remember, I wrote this because I Love bro. And that can not be falsified ; )
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@ Great Hope
As usual many words to hide your presuppositional thinking viz: Or you could just say I don't want to know The Creator and I'm not willing to do such spirit searching
Hollywood movies are proof of nothing except our craving for stories. "boom"
Our "gut" digests food and can get upset when great stress is placed upon other parts of the body. Phrases like " God botherers give me the shits" are based on real experiences, similarly " When I hear Jesus is love, from a roadside hypocrite, just makes me want to vomit"just goes to prove the point that the preachers of this words can really upset your balance, and thus your entire wellbeing. And to prove my lack of prejudice, "Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance" is guaranteed to bring on an enormous intestine voiding bout of diarrhea both mental and physical.
So you can see the proof of my statements and claims. You give us the shits.
What a rambling bunch of tripe. Anyone willing to wade through that garbage? What are they teaching the kids in school these days?
Lol sorry for giving you the shits old man shouts... Maybe you need some more prunes in your diet?
Ok so let me ask a simple yes or no question.
Do you want to know God? Yes or no?
I don't believe any deity exists, so what I want, or anybody else for that matter, is utterly irrelevant. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any diety? Stop asking leading suggestible questions, and offer something tangible.
Which God? Easy question for a believer I would think. Some Gods are worth knowing and other gods are murdering assholes. Some might be worth knowing, many should be taken out to the edge of town and stoned to death. So tell us about your God.
@ gREAT hOPE
Look, dipshit, we have had this conversation. I will not play your presuppositional games. I lack belief in your god. Your question presupposes the existence of a god or gods. It's not clever, its remarkably dull that you think asking the same question of intelligent, rational beings is likely to get you anywhere or anything but plentiful abuse. And rightly so.
Either ask rational, sane questions or fuck off back to whatever idiot commune you came from.
"From what we have to work with in this life, and with the ending left up to question and wonder."
I completely disagree, the ending isn't remotely in doubt, and there is absolutely no objective evidence that any human has ever or ever will survived their own physical death in any meaningful way. I find the notion that we do utterly absurd.
I have no idea what the point of your second paragraph is, beyond a collection of vapid cliches? Usually people involve vague metaphors in arguments to try and make claims that they have no cogent arguments, or object evidence to support. This also seem to be your MO, as you more often than not start with a scatter gun of claims, as you have done here, and then move on without offering anything approaching objective evidence or explanatory answers. Not surprising as it's clear by now to any objective reader, that you have neither.
"Forget your anatomy class for a second. This is the stuff that makes life worth living. When someone says such things, no one questions it. Everyone knows what they are talking about. "It's what's on the inside that counts." All the greatest movies display this in some way, shape, or form."
Of course you want to forget it, it involves facts and objective evidence that don't support your vapid superstitious claims. Movies don't deal in, nor are they a good source of facts, so again this kind of vague generalisation is demonstrably erroneous. As for "everyone" knowing what you're talking about, again you are quite demonstrably wrong, as I have no idea what you're talking about, nor does any objective reader I'd be prepared to bet, as you have offered naught but vague unevidenced claims, dressed up in indecipherable metaphors.
I'm afraid llife is too short to continue muddling through the rest of your sermon, as again they're just a string of empty assumptions, so I'll get straight to it, and ask what I always ask people making such claims.
**What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?**.
Please don't waste my time with vague empty metaphors, cliched and fallacious apologetics, or subjective unevidenced claims. As I don't base belief on such spurious erroneous methods, as one could believe literally anything by doing so.
I have no idea what your title means, so I read on.
Regardless of what we have to work with in this life, or whether the ending is unknown, yes we are more than our thoughts.
From your following paragraph of common expressions, that is, idioms, concerning human determination, will and achievement, I assume you mean that along with our thoughts, our actions also define who and what we are and yes it can be all very inspiring.
Everyone knows what is meant because that's what idioms are, phrases that convey agreed meanings.
Movies feature superficial displays of this nature to make money. Ask Old Man, the scripts are all about conflict and resolution, without conflict you don't have a story; in any event, the audience sit passively while paid experts play out their emotions, both high and low, on the screen without subjecting them to contact with reality.
The rest of your post is just sermonising. From my perspective as an atheist, and I am not standing on pride here, any more than you, you are presupposing a creator exists and fail to explain how my respect for human determination and will can be applied to a creator I don't believe in, or why this should inspire 'the deepest sense of humility and gratefulness' or why any 'longing' would necessarily follow. That was all evangelist ranting.
I have no need for a creator to have the greatest admiration for those who dare, and succeed, or fail. Its all in the attempt. Those who dare indeed.
I already have all sorts of connections and experiences (rather than miracles) with people that open me up to others, initiating exchanges that provide aid and information between myself and strangers and confidences. A choice is constantly at hand, so, no nothing stays the same. Life and relationships evolve. Perfection is stagnation.
I agree that exploration of every part of oneself is always beneficial, after Socrates' "the unexamined life is not worth living". A lot of people never question themselves or their lives, even theists.
I am not being guided, following higher planes of inspiration, or hearing ethereal callings. I am just living life. I find myself attracted to immigrants, alcoholics and handicapped people, who are more interesting than 'normal' people. I don't do the selfless sort of charity work that you have mentioned you do. Very admirable and more power to you for it. I hope you just go easy with the preaching.
I will say this once: Its not that I don't want to know or believe in your creator, its that I can not, nor have the need, nor belief. I have had my honest try. Expectation not met would be an understatement. It not only seems to be the most recurring theme in life, it IS a fundamental part of it, hence our collective disappointments.
Cheers GH, I hope they don't chew your arse too much this round, lol.
Thank you Grinseed
I voice typed this on the commode in 5 minutes this morning. Because they keep asking for evidence, and I have so much fun with this, I keep simplifying the only answer that God gave each of us. If God does exist? And you might want to know? Then There is an order to it. It's simple and not hard to understand. Most people in the world at least entertain the possibility. Some don't care and can say they don't care. Others oppose it. And a select few are agnostics with a lack of belief because they aren't willing to give it an honest deep humble soul effort.
All I want to know, if God does exist? Would people want to know? Because,,, there is a way. But, that is if a person would do what's necessary to gain the experience that leads to evidence. This is totally not the right though to have. But If God does exist? I would like to watch the faces of atheists at the throne. Not because I would get satisfaction out of it. But, just to see if they are surprised? I would like to hear their story about why they didn't try the way it actually works? Because at the end of it all, the possibility will always be there. Death is so exciting. What a gamble.
It's really an easy question to answer yes or no. So I'll rephrase it a tad.
If God exists? Would you want to know? Yes or no?
Because if you did? You would be able to say it.
And if you didn't? You would be able to say it.
If you say there's no evidence and don't try the order to it. Then by default you don't want to know God. It should be easy to say.
@ Great Hope
"It's really an easy question to answer yes or no. So I'll rephrase it a tad.
If God exists? Would you want to know? Yes or no?"
So, if an omnipotent, omniscient being exists and it wants to stay secret...how would I fucking ever know you fucking imbecile? Christ on a raft you post some idiotic fucking shite. look up Omnipotent and Omniscient (my capitals) you turd on a raft.
"they keep asking for evidence, and I have so much fun with this, I keep simplifying the only answer that God gave each of us. If God does exist? And you might want to know? Then There is an order to it."
That's not evidence, that's another separate claim, and this would need to be evidenced as well. Or Hitchens's razor will apply.
"Most people in the world at least entertain the possibility. "
That's an argumentum ad populum fallacy, the number of people who hold a belief tells us nothing about it's validity. It is also axiomatically impossible to assign possibility or not to an unfalsifiable claim.
"a select few are agnostics with a lack of belief because they aren't willing to give it an honest deep humble soul effort."
No that's woefully incorrect, agnosticism is defined as the idea that nothing is known, or can be known, about the nature or existence of something. This would necessarily encompass all unfalsifiable claims which by definition can teach us nothing. Agnosticism is not a statement of belief or the lack of it per se, it's an epistemological statement about the limit of knowledge. As far as any deity is concerned, and these could involve both falsifiable and unfalsifiable claims, being an agnostic might also involve disbelief, but not always. Though to me it is absurd to believe a claim you have already acknowledged you can never know anything about.
"All I want to know, if God does exist? Would people want to know? "
You keep asking this as if the atheists here haven't encountered this apologetic trick before. Yet after days of posting and many overly verbose posts you have not demonstrated a single shred of objective evidence that any deity exists. Start with the best evidence you have, asking questions about something you have yet to demonstrate any evidence for a specious nonsense.
"If God exists? Would you want to know? Yes or no?"
I have an equally simple question for you, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? I can't answer questions about things that don't exists, so you will have to demonstrate objective evidence commensurate to the claim first before I can answer your question, you might as well accept this fact as it isn't going to change through repetition of your question.
"Death is so exciting. What a gamble."
It's neither exciting nor a gamble, and that is axiomatically true, since we all die, and our consciousness requires a functioning living brain, we won't be able to experience anything after we die, and it's not a gamble as it is inevitable. Pascal's wager has been widely criticised, not least because fooling an omniscient deity by feigning belief is palpably absurd, and of course theists are still taking a massive gamble as well, namely have they have been born into the correct belief, and deity. So the argument brings you straight back to objective evidence.
"If you say there's no evidence and don't try the order to it. Then by default you don't want to know God. It should be easy to say."
Stop trying to tell people what they want to know, this is rank nonsense as well. It's astonishing to me how many religious apologists think blind repetition makes their spurious arguments compelling. I don't say there is no evidence, I ask for it to be demonstrated, AS I DO WITH ALL CLAIMS*, and yet no one has demonstrated any objective evidence, they just create woo-woo claims like yours. I no more don't want to know a deity than you don't want to know unicorns, I just don't believe the claim they exist as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity.
"It should be easy to say."
It should be equally easy for you to demonstrate objective evidence if you have any, yet you can't. So putting your wheezy clapped out pony behind your cart isn't going to fool anyone. It's arrogant to assume atheists have not properly scrutinised religious apologetics, yet all too often woefully ill-informed apologists who set a desperately low bar for belief themselves, based on bias towards their own superstitious beliefs, make this assumption, and they do it with the arrogant condescending pretence they have access to some esoteric truth that escapes atheists, but which we can unlock by starting the process with an inerrant bias in favour of it, it's palpably absurd.
Edited for typos and grammar.
@ Sheldon
"So putting your wheezy clapped out pony behind your cart isn't going to fool anyone. It's arrogant to assume atheists have not properly scrutinised apologetics, yet all too often woefully ill-informed apologists, who set a desperately low bar for belief,
I fucking love that sentence.....10,000 like ....
Thank you, I have edited slightly as there were some typos and I can't resist meddling with sentence structure, but the core point is the same.
I knew you guys were going to like that one lol. it's perfectly fine if you don't want to do it the way it was designed. I'm not trying to change anyone nor do I care. All I know is I'm not dying without giving it my all. I've lived so much there's really nothing left to do. And it's everything that I've ever searched for. I'm just giving it the way it works. That's all. If you don't want to do it? That's fine, God said it would be like this. Time will tell. ; )
If God does indeed actually exist? Look for me in the rafters.
What evidence can you demonstrate for any of those claims? All you're doing is repeating yourself and making more and more unevidenced claims. Pointing out along the way that you believe something that is unfalsifiable, and for which you clearly have no objective evidence you can demonstrate.
I'm glad you're excited, because this vapid nonsense is mind numbingly tedious for those who can see it for the vapid hokum it is.
The question of whether or not we are more than our thoughts is arbitrary.
Great Hope : "The grinches heart grew two sizes too large"
Actual quote : "And what happened, then? Well, in Whoville they say – that the Grinch’s small heart grew three sizes that day."
@ Great hope
"Oh my God, that kid has got guts!" "He might not be the brightest but, that man has a lot of balls!" "Look at that passion burning inside her heart!" "You can judge a person by the size of their heart!" The grinches heart grew two sizes too large" "I don't know how to explain it, it's like all the walls around my heart just melted away" "That boy has sure been through the ringer, but his spirit won't let him quit!"
"Forget your anatomy class for a second. This is the stuff that makes life worth living. When someone says such things, no one questions it. Everyone knows what they are talking about. "It's what's on the inside that counts." All the greatest movies display this in some way, shape, or form."
You know what came to mind when I read this? A lassie movie.
Those same characteristics you can find in almost every animal. I used the dog example because they have even been awarded medals for such acts.
Are dogs loyal, loving, tenacious, brave, and trustworthy because they believe in a god, or is it just their behavior?
Great hope, I submit to you the explanation that you are describing characteristics common to most animals, and inserting the god equation. If there is no god, then animals and humans would still act the same in these circumstances.
Does a loving mother rush into a burning building to save her children because "god"?
Thank you chimp3 it's been decades since I have watched the Grinch, maybe I'll give it a go this "Christmas" season. Most of you have hit on the whole innards thing I mentioned. All I was getting at was that there is more to us than meets the eye. Some people call that a person's spirit\soul\heart\will power\drive. Maybe I should have given references like Rudy, Interstellar, any racing movie, Rocky 1 thru whatever number their on now. Who we are is more than just our thoughts. It has been brought up before and some people don't want to reference it because the spirit\soul can not be examined and can definitely not be repeated lol. But "most people" on the planet will admit that they know what people are talking about, when referencing it. We still don't know where it came from. I'm also not saying that a mom saves her baby for God. I'm just saying that mom recognizes that there is a soul in that baby and the mom herself has a soul. And we don't know how anyone, all the way back to the beginning, has a soul. But yet it's there. And even though we see some animals have fun mimicking humans and having independent emotions and even puzzle solving skills. We have yet to see 1 of the trillion species evolve into making a "nuclear weapon" or "slaughter bots" we are singled out and set so far apart it's insane. Go ask a giraffe to pay rent on the first of every month lol.
@Sheldon when someone says "that kid sure has a lot of heart" do you pull out a textbook of anatomy and say that his heart shouldn't be that big? Or do you understand what people are saying when they such things?
Has anyone seen this yet?
Watch "Palm Sized Flying Killer Robots a.k.a Slaughterbots" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/2yhtnVJSc9M
GH : "I'm also not saying that a mom saves her baby for God. I'm just saying that mom recognizes that there is a soul in that baby and the mom herself has a soul."
People have risked their lives to save their pets and livestock also. Does a dog or horse have a soul?
I know what a metaphor is, are you being deliberately obtuse?
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity, or of your many unevidenced claims?
Is the question too complex for you?
@Sheldon
I keep repeating it because this is all you're going to get until time is up.
It's in your choice. That's it.
If you want the evidence you have to seek your own experience. That's it. If your not willing to give it a go? Then just say, even if God existed, I don't like the way it does things and I don't want to know it. If when I die, God just so happens to be there, then oh well, I'll just say something like it was it's fault for not doing anything the way I wanted. It can do whatever it wants to me. I didn't ask for any of this. If it wanted me to know it? Then it should have done something more than give me a life I didn't ask for in a world we will never understand in a Universe we will never understand with possibly something going on outside of the Universe but we will never know and a guaranteed death with the possibility that life was meant for more if you chose to want it.
I don't know why any person's would shut down anything about the how and why we are here? It's all an eternal question. Left up to wonder. It would be insanely retarded if this experience is all there is to life. So when I hear you keep asking for evidence. It's like what kind of special treatment do you think you deserve? God gave you a choice. Choose God for real and you will be shown the way. Be humble son, it's easy when, from our perspective, pride is a luxury that none of our asses can cash. Seriously I don't know what you think your going to loose by seeking The Giver of Life??? Like I really not that hard and you can still do all sorts of fun things. Why does it seem so scary to you? Do you feel like your going to be missing out on the short time we have in this life? Do you think you'll have to do something that you won't like? Do you think it will be too much for you? I know some people who don't think they can be loved. Do you think that once you've experienced it to be true that you won't be able to change back? What is it Sheldon? Give me your best why. Why don't you want to humble yourself before God and do it the way it has been designed? Give me something to work with here. Why don't you want to know God? Are you like I was and just dont care? I wanted so badly for God to do just one thing for me and then I would do whatever God wanted. But God knows it doesn't work that way. Self-centeredness has to be destroyed. And humbling yourself before God and seeking its way, not ours. Is the only way it works.
So no then, you can demonstrate no objective evidence for any deity, and believe in a deity from an archaic superstition because you like the egotistical sense of well being you get from the delusion.
We're done then, your sententious preaching is tiresome, as is your intransigent lack of comprehension. Thanks for popping by anyway, False hope.
Same specious sermon from you, and the same vapid nonsense. I don't give a fuck what you believe, seriously. If you can't demonstrate any objective evidence for those beliefs then your intransigent sulk that they are meaningful doesn't make any difference to me.
You can regurgitate every apologist's cliche there is, but I'm still pointing and laughing at your religion's fictional angry deity and it's fictional afterlife. Most of all I'm pointing and laughing at your risible claim that I have to adopt a suggestible gullible biased attitude towards your superstition in order to unlock some esoteric message.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity. Your inability to answer this simple question with anything approaching integrity speaks volumes about your beliefs.
GH, you wrote, “Or you could just say I don't want to know The Creator and I'm not willing to do such spirit searching, I want it to do what I want then I'll choose to not like it, *cynical Chuckles* and be done with it. You'll be the most free being alive... And if you say you have tried this and I didn't work, I guarantee there was an expectation that wasn't met. (Seems to be the most reoccurring theme in all of history)
The ending is going to be worth at least an honest try. Exploration of every part of yourself is always beneficial.
So ask yourself, if I did want to seek God? What would that look like? Or just do what is expected and rip this post to shreds looking at only the impossibilities. Which btw has no evidence....”
Why did you choose to say it that way instead of this:
“Or you could just say I don't want to know The Unicorn and I'm not willing to do such spirit searching, I want it to do what I want then I'll choose to not like it, *cynical Chuckles* and be done with it. You'll be the most free being alive... And if you say you have tried this and I didn't work, I guarantee there was an expectation that wasn't met. (Seems to be the most reoccurring theme in all of history)
The ending is going to be worth at least an honest try. Exploration of every part of yourself is always beneficial.
So ask yourself, if I did want to seek The Unicorn? What would that look like? Or just do what is expected and rip this post to shreds looking at only the impossibilities. Which btw has no evidence....”
What is the actual difference between these two things? No one, after all, has been able to present more evidence of one over the other.
I'd suggest he did it that way because he has no motive to believe in unicorns. People who allow themselves to become suggestible and gullible rarely like to admit they've been duped. From a psychological standpoint religions have honed their act to press all the right buttons. If we only we had someone posting who studied psychology.
I mean someone objective, and not YEC, who is busy denying evolution and rewriting the bible to mean what he thinks it should of course.
A unicorn or Spaghetti Monster aren't claiming to be of spirit or speak to Universe into existence giving us life and having an ending after death. If you think it's all hogwash and it's a huge conspiracy theory to believe in God? Then that's fine. Really it is. It actually will be quite hilarious to find out that God doesn't exist. But like I've said before, what good would that do? Our conversations have gone complete circle again. Only time will tell. Y'all have said that no one can present objective evidence. So really it seems like you might be seeking the Unicorn\objective personal evidence. While a theist went after the the experience of The Creator who gives life who says it will be there for those that simply seek it lol it's awesome how simple it is. "Logic favors the greater" which is why the majority of the world has a really hard time understanding how atheism can claim logic and reason. I love you all and have grown quite fond of our conversations. But I'll stop wasting y'all's time with the way it works. I really do hope you have the best life ever and nothing happens to change the "luck" of your random placement lol.
Thank you for your time, I've learned a lot and everyone I know has been telling me to write a book. So I guess I'll just shift my energy to that. Just remember to look for me in the rafters ; )
Great Hope
This is a short song that has a nice sound and I hope you'll just give it a listen. For ol times sake. It has the lyrics in it.
Watch "TobyMac - Feel It (Lyrics)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/KQTqxn6F17E
You've ignored the salient characteristic they all do share. Take your time, and we'll be here when it sinks in. Or go your whole life patting yourself on the back in this rather nauseous way, I can't tell you how unimpressive it is.
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures....***Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts.*** "
Albert Einstein, "The World As I See It"
This one deals with human morality quite nicely, and reflects my own position, so thank you Albert.
"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
Albert Einstein,
@ GH
A book? A whole book of this turgid, vapid nonsense? Oh LOL...best news I have had all week...do come back and let us know when you have won the Amazon Newcomers Award....sorry laughing too hard to type now....
The title will be : chasing after unicorns that fart peanut butter coated prunes
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