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Skeptical Christian,
So what? A lot has been learned in the 150 odd years since Darwin! Why should those excavators see earlier fossils at their site? If you are going to use geology to criticize evolution you might brush up on both subjects and save yourself a lot of embarrassment.
@skeptical:
"darwin was mystified about the cambrian explosion read what he has to say the discovery institute has put out a video called darwins dilemma"
The Cambrian Explosion was a very complex process spanning many millions of years. If Darwin couldn't understand it in the 19th century, perhaps we should look for answers in the fragmented writings of nomadic Iron Age goat-herders.
Or maybe we could ask scientists about hard-bodied and soft-bodied animals, climate change, changes in sea chemistry, changes in the atmosphere, etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Science-God-Convergence-Scientific-Biblical/dp/14...
Review by Esther Nebenzahl:
Here we have one more crusader, a distinguished physicist and Biblical scholar, trying to bridge the gap between religion and science, showing that what might appear as diametrically opposed descriptions of the creation of the universe, of the start of life on Earth, and our human origins, are in fact identical realities viewed from different perspectives. His theological sources are the hewbrew Bible, the Talmud, and the 13th century kabalist Nahmanides.
Schroeder tackles the issue of Darwin's theory of evolution and its flaws ("nature does not make jumps" versus "natures only makes jumps"), quantum uncertainty, relativity, cosmic background radiation, convergent evolution, anthropic argument, and other recent scientific innovations. All of these issues are placed side by side with Biblical and kabalist commentaries.
The result is an amazing tapestry where the six days of creation match scientific description (time dilation), the Biblical "bere'shith" is the beginning of time, matter, and space, quantum mechanics is the graveyard of determinism and confirmation of free will, and the scientific "insufficient caused event" is the age-old Biblical definition of a miracle. There is room for concepts such as: God was to chose Abraham only long after Abraham had chosen God, scientific confirmation that less-than-human creatures with human-like bodies and brains existed before Adam, and pre-programmed DNA.
It is in fact an "Amazing Technicolor Raincoat," weaved by a brilliant mind. Schroeder may be accused for "seeing reality as he assumes it to be," and for far-fetching his Biblical interpretations. It is clear, however, that his honest intentions are not to bring disruptions but rather contribute to the convergence of science and theology. Needless to say, strict believers on each side of the fence will have to open their minds.
Sorry. I'm barred in my Fortress of Impenetrable Irreligious Solitude at the moment. Come back in a millennium or so, with whatever popular religion is being practiced then.
The Genesis I creation account is clearly modeled on the Babylonian cosmology. The match is nearly perfect. Highly imaginative interpretations to unite science and Bible do a disservice to both and will never convince anyone who expects objective interpretation.
P.S. This is not the place to promote books.
If you are referring to Gilgamesh, that story is much later than the flood.
"It is paramount to understand that Noah and his legacy were so important within Mesopotamian culture that even millenniums after the flood he remained their most important factual ancestor. In approximately 2200 B.C.E., an elected regional Sumerian ruler named Gilgamesh describes a near death experience survived by himself and his family while they are on their cargo river barge when an enormous flash flood occurs as if he relives Noah's epic. He aptly describes his experience as identical to Noah to substantiate his honesty when his barge is washed down the Euphrates River and out to the Persian Gulf where he loses his prepaid contracted cargo so he may later seek mercy from Mesopotamian laws of commerce. Within the recorded tale are nearly all of the important elements from Noah's flood epic. He fortifies rather than replaces the importance of Noah and his legacy to humankind. The Gilgamesh epic reads like a great fictional novel incorporating pieces of the lives and accomplishments of several historic Mesopotamians who would have been well known to all Mesopotamians such as the first Nimrod, grandson of Ham who founded Babel (Babylon). The fact that the Gilgamesh epic was safely stored should be seen as testament to the artistic sophistication of Mesopotamian culture. Supporting this conclusion are known pieces of the Mesopotamian cultural identity. The identity symbols of Sumeria are images of musicians with harps, other musical instruments and bearers of scrolls. The Hebrew Tanakh and later Greek literary works substantiate the telling of stories and epics while accompanied by harp music. Will the American novel "Gone With The Wind" which names actual historic figures within its fictional tale be someday argued to be a factual record of the American Civil War? "
@BS…
No..No…No!
“If you are referring to Gilgamesh, that story is much later than the flood.”
If by “flood” you are referring to the mythical flood of Noah….then you are quite simply wrong….. (do you not ever do any of your own research……. (Not just a little bit..)
Simple Wiki search…..
1/The earliest Sumerian Gilgamesh poems date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur (2100–2000 BCE).
2/According to the documentary hypothesis, the first five books of the Bible (Pentateuch/Torah), including Genesis, were collated during the 5th century BC from four main sources, which themselves date from no earlier than the 10th century BC.
(If you go onto Wiki…look up the subjects then follow the footnotes they will lead you to the source data)
Then
“In approximately 2200 B.C.E., an elected regional Sumerian ruler named Gilgamesh describes a near death experience survived by himself and his family while they are on their cargo river barge when an enormous flash flood occurs as if he relives Noah's epic.”
NO!.... YOU HAVEN’T EVEN READ THE BLOODY THING ….HAVE YOU…?
Gilgamesh did not endure the flood…..it was to find the survivor of the flood that was Gilgamesh’s quest….Indeed in the verses Gilgamesh finds the man who survived…..his name was Utnapishtim. He was attempting to bring back a sacred plant…..but that is neither here nor there….
Now read here…..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth
its quite painless…its only Wiki…..its not a deep research tool…but it is quick and accessible ….any fool can read it…..
Then..finally you come up with this…..
“Will the American novel "Gone With The Wind" which names actual historic figures within its fictional tale be someday argued to be a factual record of the American Civil War? "
Of course it will…..there was a Civil War…the South did loose….there were Blockade Runners….plantations were destroyed…. General Sherman did drive his column to the sea…..Atlanta was burned to the ground…..
It will be argued in exactly the same way that the mythical story of Noah’s flood is argued to be a factual record because it has names of actual places.
Seeker,
There was no worldwide flood at any time in Earth's history, and doubly-certain-with-cherries-on-top there was not one in the last 5000 years! Whatever the source of the Middle Eastern flood story, Genesis is a late borrower and interprets it as a worldwide flood.
I agree, there was no worldwide flood in the last 5000 years. And as I asserted in another post, "The Flood" was a large local flood over the places on earth where man lived at the time, basically confined to the Mediterranean plain which is now the Mediterranean Sea. (If you watch the Flood movie in www.findingnoah.info the image of the rivers running through the Mediterranean plain were taken from Google Earth imaging where the sattelites can see what lies below the water, like ancient river beds) The flood happened about 12,000 years agol WatcherSniper will put me under fire for this, but the biblical flood goes back much further than the what many people think the age of Genesis is. Get your bullets out now.
According to my artist, every first born from Adam on, left behind his own "book". Including the book of Abraham. This could be interpreted as an inscribed staff (Remember Pharoah gave Moses a shepard's staff, not a princely staff with the Egyptian-Hamite-pseudo-lineage(cause they're liars) which detailed family lineage that was passed on.) As well as other information. Cuneiform tablets were for posterity. People did also use papyrus or parchment for everyday writing. Don't ask me to prove this, but common sense dictates.Shoot again.
In later times, apparently was the person charged with compiling the Tanakh or ("5 books of Moses") was Moses or at least his crew and their descendants. Don't forget that Moses grew up in Egypt(Mitzraim, a son of Ham listed in Genesis, in Hebrew also means Egypt in the Hebrew bible, the name stuck) as a prince and warrior where Egyptian custom and Hebrew custom of worship differed, to put it mildly. He was a control freak who didn't want people to know too much. Much was left out of Genesis which can be gleaned from other sources.
There was already many, many books of knowledge in that time of Moses, about 1300 BCE give or take. The beginning of Genesis which describes the origin of the universe and life on earth was from the Book of Adam, who YES, was taught to read and write by the watchers. . Every first born was supposed to inscribe their own book of lineage and knowledge.For example, there is a book of Enoch from Ethiopia, Dead Sea Scrolls (ancient Aramic, before the Hebrew of 2000 years ago), Greek, Latin, sources, etc) which shows knowledge was widespread, if not common...
And not every Hebrew from Egypt went along the 40 year trek. Many went to Mycaenae and other places. And there were Hebrews living throughout the ancient world, not all were trapped in Egypt.(Shoot again WatcherSniper)
As for Carbon 14 dating of artifact ages (not fossils, etc)....it is getting better, but usually they take soil samples from where the object was found, but the ground is constantly being recycled, and artifacts were buried, so, the age of the object may be much much older than the "age" of the surrounding soil. (Shoot again WatcherSniper)
@BS
And that loud twanging noise was ,I suppose, the last remaining thread connecting you to reality snapping.....
"I agree, there was no worldwide flood in the last 5000 years. And as I asserted in another post, "The Flood" was a large local flood over the places on earth where man lived at the time, basically confined to the Mediterranean plain which is now the Mediterranean Sea."
This is of course utter nonsense....
The refilling of the Mediterranean Sea (5.3 million years ago)[edit]
Main article: Zanclean flood
A catastrophic flood refilled the Mediterranean Sea 5.3 million years ago, at the beginning of the Zanclean age that ended the Messinian salinity crisis. The flood occurred when Atlantic waters found their way through the Strait of Gibraltar into the desiccated Mediterranean basin, following the Messinian salinity crisis during which it repeatedly became dry and re-flooded, dated by general consensus to before the emergence of modern humans.
The Mediterranean did not dry out during the most recent glacial maximum. Sea level during glacial periods within the Pleistocene is estimated to have dropped only about 110 to 120 metres (361 to 394 ft). In contrast, the depth of the Strait of Gibraltar where the Atlantic Ocean enters ranges between 300 and 900 metres (980 and 2,950 ft).
link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood#The_refilling_of_the_Medite...
I would point out the following....."dated by general consensus to before the emergence of modern humans."
Further points....this individual is clearly unfamiliar with the process's utilised in the use of carbon 14 dating techniques.
.....................The claim of hebrews moving to Mycenae is unsupported ,unrecorded ,and unsubstantiated.
........................(As ,of course, is the whole Exodus fairy tale.)
I shall no longer engage with BS directly.....other than to correct any erroneous information he posts.....only because I don't want this site to become known for holding unchallenged theist claptrap.
Iam slightly concerned by a couple of aspects of his latest ramblings......,"According to my artist,....".....it would seem that this artist has far too much influence over BS...I do hope no money changes hands....a little out of my usual remit but I may take a closer look at this "artist".
From Part 4 Multi-media presentation:
"However, no one has effectively investigated Mediterranean geologic changes at that time. I pose important questions:
Was the Mediterranean Sea created by a rise in global sea level at the end of the last ice age in a catastrophic event? If the Mediterranean Sea is and has "always been" part of the worlds ocean system why does it display those things which tend to date it as a newer body of water than the Atlantic Ocean? Where are the ancient coral reef beds which should be prominent along its southern and eastern shorelines? Why has it been documented to have rapidly increased in depth since the split between the B.C.E. and C.E. eras? ( earthquake plate tectonics )
If so then it would be logical to deduct a new scenario which adds to the Noah epic.
I am putting forward an idea concerning Noah's place of origin and his place of arrival after the flood. If he was living somewhere on a "Mediterranean Plain" at the time of a global rise in sea level it is plausible to think that the low mountains at western end of that sea were eroded by over flow leaving only the Rock of Gibraltar. There is a fault line beneath the Mediterranean Sea which runs in an irregular fashion east to west. It is logical to assume that it was a valley that held a very large river flowing to the Atlantic in which the waters of the Nile and other African and European rivers would have flowed into. The flood epic speaks of rain and an immediate rush of water. If we consider a flash flood running off of Europe and Africa plus inundation from the west as the mouth of the huge Mediterranean river was swamped by a rising ocean the water would have to flow towards any low ground in the region. Geologists are still arguing over an inundation of the Black Sea by Mediterranean water. But, places along the eastern edge of that plain are low lying and would have been flooded all the way to plain below the Gobekli region. Should it be strange to think Noah would have headed for a place well above sea level when the waters drained away? I think he ended up in the region of northern Syria - southern Turkey where the elevation is only 50 to 200 feet above the current Mediterranean Sea level. Twelve thousand years of natural erosion and current erosion in the Mediterranean would surely obscure the reality of any event occurring so long ago."
""However, no one has effectively investigated Mediterranean geologic changes at that time.".....
This ,of course is wrong.....
The Zanclean flood or Zanclean Deluge is a flood theorized to have refilled the Mediterranean Sea 5.33 million years ago] This flooding ended the Messinian salinity crisis and marks the beginning of the Zanclean age. The term was coined by Maria Bianca Cita in 1972 during the Deep Sea Drilling Project study that investigated the transition between the Messinian and Zanclean ages in the Mediterranean.
link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
The above clearly indicates the extensive sea bed research carried out in the Mediterranean basin.....obviously contradicting the opening line of the previous post.
Seeker,
Around 6 million or so years ago tectonic forces closed the Mediterranean basin and it dried up until it was at best a few scattered brine lakes. Generally speaking, I imagine that it would have been a horrible place to live! Think of a gigantic version of the salt flats in Utah and/or the salty area of Death Valley. At that time rivers feeding into the basin would have extended their channels a ways into the basin, the source no doubt of the river channels you spoke of. However, there would have been no river flowing into the Atlantic. Water doesn't flow uphill! All the water coming in via the various rivers would have dried up in the Mediterranean basin, leaving even more salt.
As Watchman said, the Mediterranean began to fill up again (a cycle that may have been repeated a number of times before the last one about 5 million years ago). At that time the closest thing to a human was an ape-like hominid. Forget about Noah (a mythological figure anyway) living in the Mediterranean basin!
As for carbon-14 dating, you need to understand that professional daters are well aware of the known problems and are often able to take measures to blunt potential errors. Since you know nothing about the method, it's pointless for you to criticize it. To begin with, you would not even know what sources to rely on, and there are plenty of lunatic sites that may sound good to a layman looking for answers.
A number of people have felt as you do and argued that Noah's flood was local. Pinning the story to one event has proven problematic, and the story may be a kind of summary of various flooding events. Genesis, however, clearly treats it as a worldwide flood. If it was merely a local flood there would have been no need to collect every kind of animal and build an ark. God would have told Noah to simply take a long walk to a region outside of the coming flood. The whole point of Noah's flood was to snuff out humanity, and if anthropologists know anything it is that humanity was not confined to this little area of the Middle East at that time. Humans had reached Australia 60,000 years ago, having populated China and Europe as well.
If you have settled on a local flood, then the Genesis account is clearly wrong. At best it's a preserved memory, and Noah would then be a mythological figure that supplied the imagined details to the story that was attached to that vague memory. The memory, itself, may have been created and continually nourished by a number of floods. In fact, older accounts suggest that "Noah" is just the ancient Hebrew version of the surviving hero in a story that predated the biblical account.
Mt. Ararat in Turkey was not even a candidate for Noah's landing place until relatively recently in history! Searchers in previous times have placed the ark in a half-dozen or so sites all over the Middle East! Hence, there is a bit of humor in reading about these intense expeditions to Mt. Ararat to find Noah's ark! (Mt. Ararat is a volcano, and there is no evidence of marine sediments on its flanks.)
Greensnake.
http://theomnireport.blogspot.com/2011/01/gobekli-tepe.html
The "local flood" was still immense. How could Noah, who you don't believe existed, have moved all the wild animal species, species needed for domestic purposes, cereal crop seeds, vegetable crop seeds, and tree saplings (fruit and lumber) more than 1000 miles. Thats a lot of work, even for Noah and his family.
Gobkli Tepe is hundreds of miles from "Mt. Ararat" but it is still an ararat - meaning "sacred land or high land"
Where I disagree, with the omnireport, is that Gobekli-Tepe was not that it was "Noah's altar" but it was the first house built after "The Flood". Thats why it was buried after 2,000 years, after families had move out, and also while none of the other nearbyancient settlements, Calal Hayuk, etc. achieved the level of sophistication and art as this original home.
:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbu4wr_gobekli-tepe_news
and while I don't thik think this article is correct about the location of the ark at Mt. Ararat, the ark was actuallyhundreds of miles away and was reused for building beam timber construction for the roof of Gobekli Tepe, etc,, the article does a fair job of nailing down the ages of the first domesticated animals and crops. But the article doesn't account for "Neolithic sites discovered in the core area indicate that a society with plenty of food thrived there. In sites such as Cayonu, Novali Cori, and Gobekli Tepe, impressive architecture, images, and artifacts have been found. Settlement sites are also larger in this area than many others of the same time in other parts of the Fertile Crescent" . ..http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/ararat.html
"trying to bridge the gap between religion and science"
Theism and theology are drowning in a sea of disbelief, indifference, and disgust. Supporters of these outmoded fantasies need to realize that science is not a straw that they can clutch at to stay afloat. Science is the sea that's drowning them, and every piece of pseudo-scientific biblo-babble increases the weight of the false knowledge anchor tied to their feet. People that used to claim that the bible was literal truth are now using words like "time dilation", "quantum uncertainty" and "relativity" to jazz up their tired old delusions. I know how stupid they are, but how stupid do they think we are?
I find parallels between Christians becoming atheists, Christians becoming Jews, and rabbinate becoming karaites.
I began doubting Christianity first when I noticed that Leviticus 4:35 says:
"They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the lamb of the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the food offerings presented to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven."
Forgiven? But the NT says that you are forgiven only through Jesus!
Later I dealt with issues regarding the One way to heaven doctrine which says that if you are a christian you go to heaven no matter how evil you are, but you go to hell if you aren't regardless of how good you are. So basically Constantine who raped and killed his sister is in heaven because he is a christian whereas Ghandi who lost his life fighting to set his people free is in hell on account of being a Hindu. It makes no logical sense.
The real kicker was Ezekiel 18:20, which says:
"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
So how did Jesus die for our sins when G-d clearly states EVERYONE SHALL DIE FOR THEIR OWN SINS?
Harry Truman,
I have to agree with your demonstration that Christianity doesn't really fit the Old Testament. It's a bastardized version of Judaism, mixed with pagan, savior-god theology and seasoned with sun-god trappings. It doesn't make any sense in sending good people to hell while assuring a place in heaven for fiendish believers. The whole idea of God impregnating Mary so that he could be born of flesh and die on the cross as a sacrifice is totally insane! Yet, that's what a Christian must believe in order to get to heaven!
Watcherperson
Geology. Its so exact.
GEOLOGICAL HISTORY OF THE CENTRAL MEDITERRANEAN BASIN: AN OUTLINE OF CENOZOIC EVENTS http://www.oberlin.edu/Geopage/projects/204projects/kolker/kolker.html
Water filled through Gibraltar. There was a flood. The weight of the water exacerbated more plate tetonics. Look whats covered up in Mediterranean and throughout the world. Houses off the coast of Malta. Lots of underwater cities. Guess nobody ever lived there. Nothing to see here. Move along.
http://blog.world-mysteries.com/mystic-places/ancient-cities-and-megalit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPnRUI_y-Ek (No. this is not Atlantis)
There are three major geomorphical settings within the Mediterranean basin; areas with stable margin characteristics, areas with unstable convergent margin charactericstics, and areas with extensional margin (rifting) characteristics. Thus the Mediterranean basin is a location of an intercontinental interplate system; with compressional and extensional events occurring within close proximity. Geologists have yet to come to a consensus about which plates in addition to the African and Eurasian ones, if any, are involved in Mediterranean tectonics. Subsidence-related and other vertical displacements are also found in compressional and extensional areas. A few notable events occurred during the Cenozoic which affected the entire Mediterranean; the Messinian "salinity crisis", when the closing off of the Mediterranean-Atlantic seaway caused complete isolation of the Mediterranean and thus widespread evaporation; and then the Pliocene "revolution", when the channel opened back up, causing reestablishment of marine conditions; and the Quaternary "transgressive raised terraces," of controversial geological origin; among others.
Seeker,
"Look whats covered up in Mediterranean and throughout the world. Houses off the coast of Malta. Lots of underwater cities. Guess nobody ever lived there. Nothing to see here. Move along." --Seeker
Take a deep breath, Seeker!
All of these flooded cities are in shallow water near coastal areas. The ocean level has risen and fallen countless times over the ages and eons, and lowlands do get flooded. Some coastlines subside as well while other areas rise up. We don't find any cities at the bottom of deep water.
Greensnake,
To quote Hillary "What difference does it make?" Ages and eons is a long time.
So, "How low can you go?", especially in the crucible of the Mediterranean Basin. Was the fault line from Sicily to western Turkey cited in research,a caldera 12,000 years ago that was one of the "Fountains of the Deep"? Makes sense.
Not sure that this is the correct thread for this, if not, can an admin please move?
I'm a Pagan. As such I'm against pushing one viewpoint, agree that a religion -any religion-should not have an automatic right to have their views pushed to the top of government agendas, or have prayers said in local or national government meetings. I also don't believe that anyone who disagrees with my will be punished by eternal torment. Hell is a made up place!
OK, so I'm not trying to convert anyone, don't think you are evil or anti social.
Question: Why are you promoting a Pagan faith on your T shirts? You do realise that "Heathen" is the faith of those who follow the Norse Gods, don't you? I mean, I'm not saying it's "blasphemy" or anything, just that it seems odd, or at best ill-informed!
All the best.
Hello Jacky
I thought "heathen" was a general derogatory term for someone who is not a Jew, Christian or Muslim. That would certainly include atheists. "Pagan" traditionally had the same meaning. What does it mean for you?
I'm guessing that people have used the word "heathen" on this site as a way of giving a one-fingered salute to the mainstream religious types who look down on atheists for not following their particular sky fairy fantasy.
Jacky Raven Heraty,
It's a refreshing change of pace to hear from a pagan! Few of us have any say over the production of T-shirts, meaning that a T-shirt may or may not fit all of us. Especially green snakes that are long and skinny! Since atheists are not a monolithic block, it is rather risky to assume that we all support this or that statement (other than the rejection of theism).
Jacky Raven Heraty : As I understand , the word heathen has been used by neo-pagans (not pagans) to describe themselves. Heathen has been used historically to describe non-christians and jews. It seems a bit arrogant to claim exclusive rights to a word in common use for centuries. I may have to change my own use of the term as applied to myself , lest someone associate me with the white supremacist faction of the "heathen" movement.
Jacky, I am unable to move your comment to a different place since it is not a separate thread itself. In the future, you can start new threads in the debate room (to which theists have access for comments) or the Atheist Hub (reserved for comments by atheists only). You are welcome here and your participation is encouraged :-)
@jackie
Safe-Spaces? LOL! Isn't that special.
Does one get a secret invitation to Athiest Hub? A white hood or a Guy Fawkes mask like Watcherperson?
How sad...
but Ms. Pagan, Tanakh says If you're pagan and obey the "norms" of civilization, you won't be judged as one who wishes to commit harm a la Hillary. You seem OK to me, And what color blue do Druids paint themselves? Where else does that blue shows up in world culture, Whose fringed garments are woven with that same color? Clue. Look towards the "Western Wall"
"my discomfort with religion started when I was about 8 years old and the cartoon pages we were coloring in Sunday School seemed strangely inappropriate...Noah's family and giraffes looking out the portholes of the Ark while mothers with innocent babies in their arms were drowning outside. This was God's love for his innocent children?!"
Most likely no babies died- as populations grow live birth rates fall, so it is entirely possible that they had no baies, and if they did they were most likely horribly deformed due to the STD's.
" declared my major to be Geology. I took the required Astronomy/Cosmology course, and once again I saw elegant explanations that made perfect sense, while the version in Genesis was wrong on so many details that again it was very clear that at least that part of Genesis was just a myth."
More like- they told you there was no proof, besides, every culture in the world has a flood mythh, so I am inclined to believe that it is true- Hindus, Sumerians, Native Americans, Egyptians, Hebrews, Greeks, etc.
"When I got to my required Paleontology course, one of our assignments was to sketch the differences between clamshells that had been collected from a sequence of ancient seabottom sediment beds. What I observed with my own eyes was the slow evolution of one species into another. Evolution was real. I saw it with my own eyes, touched the fossils with my own hands. Poof, another section of Genesis blown away like dust."
Not so much actually, evolution is complete nonsense- this has been proven, really I'd love to see some real proof for it, but thus far we still haven't found that missing link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TKhwzmINcv9oCWfcsRGvaA1D0We_zfubTCG7...
Apologetics for genocide (admittedly a fantasy genocide), from a Jewish person! This is what religion does to your brain!
Nothing is happening to my brain- look, it took 50 years for live birth rates to go from 5 per woman to 2.5 per woman, so in 50 years there will be no live birth rates.
Besides,this is just hypocrisy-you guys criticize G-d for allowing evil to exist but call him evil when he does do something about it, what's with the double standard?
We are atheists. We do not criticize any god. We criticize believers for perpetuating the evil doctrines of iron age warlords, sex slavers, and mass murderers.
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