well, first of all, to me ı have been always in between when it comes to make a decision whether should I abandon my religion or not? l come from a Muslim family and culture, so as a result we all have been dictated to believe in what we are told and taught actually. but l began to criticize Islam step by step and l have come to a point that ı cannot go beyond. there are two kinds of opinions in my mind which pull me back into my religious view and pushes me forward to leave Islam simultaneously.
l must admit that when ı looked at the Quran which l read throughout my life and sayings of prophet also I often see that there are some events or issues which seem incompatible with my mindset. for example, ın the quran chapter 18 verse 74, one of the guys with whom Moses was taking a expedition kills innocent child and says in response to Moses' outrage that l killed this innocent child because according to information that l take from Allah, this child would grow up and become an apostate and torture his parents. when l see this verse l thought that there must be a legitimate reason behind this action.Yet ı understand now that how come god allows a person or so called prophet to slaughter innocent child for the sake of not being an infidel and cruel when he grew up. indeed, god himself allows someone to have a child and then take this child back but whats interesting that god already knows this would be able to happen.
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The Abrahamic god killed millions of children and most life on the planet in Noah's Flood. It is impossible to justify such an action.
If it is permissible to kill children on god's behalf, then a person could carry out any action no matter how bad it seems as long as they claim to be acting on behalf of god. If god is all-powerful, it should be able to act on its own behalf without any helpers.
actually,from my humble research, ı found that in the bible jehovah accuses of many unbelievers culprit of this flood and deserves to be punished. but when you look at the quran, you see its a bit different in terms of flood because quran doesnt claim that flood has lasted 40 days and spanned all over the world rather it says ıt was a local flood to precise region and tribe of noah. but yeah ı agree with you that ın other cases again god punishes lots of people for disobeying his commands like sodom gomore homosexuality and so on.
secondly your second point was remarkable and noteworthy actually because you said ( If it is permissible to kill children on god's behalf, then a person could carry out any action no matter how bad it seems as long as they claim to be acting on behalf of god)
if it is the case then how can we prevent may megalomaniac people not to commit crime if they base their principles on what god told them secretly and whispering to their ears softly.otherwise we wouldnt preclude vast numbers of so called legitimate crimes anymore. so it should be opened up to a criticism in terms of law and logic.
@skepticturk
Being religious does not excuse crime done in the name of religion, but we should nonetheless encourage individuals to abandon violent ideologies.
I'd argue there are no circumstances in which it is moral to murder someone because they have failed to measure up to your expectations. So the scale of the genocide in the flood myth is a moot red herring. The genocide and all the instances of indiscriminate murder by the deity in the bible and koran also negate the very standard of morality those religions claim their deity sets for humans. Either there is objective morality and murder is never morally acceptable, or there isn't, but theists seem to want to have their cake and flood the whole planet and murder everyone on it.
Sheldon,
"Either there is objective morality and murder is never morally acceptable, or there isn't..."
The Bible doesn't teach anything about morality. It's not concerned with it at all. What it teaches is complete obedience and loyalty to the Boss. The purpose of the assorted biblical stories is the drill into people's heads to obey all commands without question. If the command is to kill a person for picking up sticks on the sabbath that's what you are supposed to do, kill him. If the command is to kill your child for talking back to you then do it. If the command is to build an interstellar space ship then get busy and do it even if you have no clue as to how to do it. And when things get tough and someone is torturing you to death you hang tight till your last breath without giving in and changing sides. If you're told to leave your family and follow Jesus then do it. You're get a big return in the end.
The Bible has nothing to do with morality. It's all about obedience and loyalty.
"The Bible doesn't teach anything about morality. It's not concerned with it at all. What it teaches is complete obedience and loyalty to the Boss. "
I agree, not unlike Nazism in fact, complete servile obedience or absolute destruction. I have never seen anything moral in adhering blindly to rules.
skepticturk,
"but yeah ı agree with you that ın other cases again god punishes lots of people for disobeying his commands like sodom gomore homosexuality and so on."
Sodom wasn't destroyed because of homosexuality. The idea that it was destroyed because of homosexuality is expressed in 1 Jude 7 (CEB) ="In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and neighboring towns practiced immoral sexual relations and pursued other sexual urges. By undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, they serve as a warning."
In the Old Testament it says that it was destroyed because the people were not hospitable.
In Ezekiel 16:49 (CEB) it says = "This is the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were proud, had plenty to eat, and enjoyed peace and prosperity; but she didn’t help the poor and the needy. "
It says in Ezekiel 16:55 (CEV) = "When that day comes, you and Sodom and Samaria will once again be well-off, and all nearby villages will be restored."
So who's lying, Ezekiel or Jude?
What's most telling about your post is that you say there are two reasons you are pulled back to the teachings of the Quaran and then avoid sharing either of them Who gives a shit what the Quaran says or what some ancient myth asserts? No one around here. The Quaran like the bible is full of stupid shit stories. Are you saying that is one of the reasons you are constantly drawn back? If you are going to have this conversation at all, list the two reasons and any facts you have supporting them. Else-wise, why are you wasting your time here?
@Skepticturk,
Salam brother, I was not born in to a Muslim family as you have and one thing I noticed that people born in to a Muslim family, is that they often take the religion for granted. By granted I mean they do not take the time and effort needed to understand and analyze the Quran and hadeeths (“sayings of prophet”). Before converting to Islam, I looked in to Atheism, Christianity, Islam and Judaism to see which made the most sense to me. Forget all the media BS, and the fabricated junk from the religious haters and looked at the true and core teachings of each belief (yes, atheism is also a form of belief). I decided to look up scholarly and scientific debates between all 4 I previously mentioned. I decided let me see what each scholar/scientist had to say about their own belief as well as their points against that which they were debating against. Then, I looked up talks/presentation/lectures/interviews on each after watching the debates to get further clarification on what they truly believed, since in a debate each person has a limited amount of time and they tend to focus on specific topics so getting to watch them 1 on 1 made a difference. After all this I even went to a church, mosque and temple to ask all the questions I had about religion, I also emailed Matt Dillahunty and John (forgot his last name) from the Atheist experience show on YouTube. My experience with Matt was the typical Atheist reply which was to deflect and jump around everything I said and never address the main topic/question. John later stepped in and I emailed him an 8 mins video (points against atheism) to get his opinion and John said he would look at the video and then replied “If this video claims to make logical points against atheism it probably doesn’t understand what atheism is”. While I appreciate his honesty, for me personally, I was done with looking in to atheism since I can’t believe/follow something that cannot defend its stance in a logical manner, or at least defend itself against logic. To make a long story short, when it came to the 3 remaining religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) Islam made the most logical, rational, humane, spiritual, metaphysical and scientific (YES scientific) sense to me. It also made the most sense when it came to it’s holistic approach to our daily life and so forth.
With that said, let me first address the first concern you have about Surat Al Kahf (which is a chapter I read every week), Chapter 18 verse 74, first off, you have to take the whole story of Prophet Moses and Al Khidr (verses 60-82) into perspective and not just that 1 single incident out of all 3 and not just that 1 single verse, context is very important. Then ask yourself, what was the purpose of Musa meeting Al khidr? Why did this even take place to begin with? What lesson can we learn from this story? What did Musa do in order to be told to go seek out Al Khidr? What do these 3 incidents tell us about Musa? Also, why are there so many key points/elements left out in the story? Why was what was focused on in the 3 incidents, focused on and not something else? I have a strong feeling if you look deeper in to it and find those answers your perspective could change. Please correct me if I am wrong but, from reading your post it seems you are looking at this chapter from a perspective of “me me me” instead of looking at it in its proper context. Again, context is very important.
When seeking an answer about religion, why would you come to an atheist forum? With all due respect to Atheists, I have found Atheists (at least the ones on this website) to be the most ignorant, arrogant and least educated when it comes to anything religion (not just Islam). Their issue with Islam has 0 intellectual standing rather, it will always come down to their personal stance and not wanting to accept there is something beyond them that they will need to eventually answer to. Not one single one of the ones here can truthfully claim they have read and understood the Quran. The ones that have are lying because, if they have they would not keep spewing the same old fabricated bs. They will quote and cite the very first google result that comes up which is the exact same fabricated BS that every other idiot uses to smack talk islam yet, as soon as you ask them for context and proof they will hop and dance around the point and say something along the lines of “I don’t want to waste my time”. My suggestion to you brother is to always consider the source of the information you are getting (which is also a sunnah) and then verify it, don’t waste your time asking a white supremacist about human rights, for example. The same way you should not waste your time asking an Atheist about religion. You need to learn to block out all the biased and hateful bs that people will say and look at things in the correct manner and context then go with what you believe to be true and correct. The one thing I can say is the number 1 person you can trust in this world should be yourself, so go with your gut. I can tell you already that my reply will receive a lot of hate, especially from my favorite hater Arakish lol (which has taken the lead over old man).
My last suggestion to you would be to take the questions I asked you and try to find answers, talk to an Imam or Sheikh and listen to their answer. Then, ask more questions till you come to your own conclusion and go with it. Subhanallah, we are born with a fitrah (our moral compass) that will always let us know truth from falsehood. Falsehood’s nature is to perish once faced with the truth.
Atheists, bring on the hate lol. I am ready for all your blah blah blah religion is wrong talk. I would suggest you guys maybe switch up the 1000 year old fabricated talk and actually bring up something significant but, I won’t hold my breath.
I won’t hold my breath.
Aww... dang! I was hoping to see ya turn into a good shade of cyan...
rmfr
" do not take the time and effort needed to understand and analyze the Quran and hadeeths"
Oh spare me, it's superstitious flimflam about flying horses ffs. An excuse for misogynistic bigots to justify iron age prejudices in the 21st century.
Well if I was going to be hateful, I might mention (to the best of my knowledge) you still have the unofficial record of the largest error ever posted to the AR forums!
His batting average for hateful bigotry is pretty high as well.
@Searching for trust (but obviously not finding it)
You make it sound like you were out shopping for a sofa. In this case, you'd have been much better off not buying one at all, or building one of your own, since all the sofas you saw not only had massive holes in them, but massive blood stains from the centuries of murders committed on them. (note in this analogy, there was no atheist sofa - see if you can follow)
(spelling edits)
@Searching for truth
I don't know if everybody has a "moral compass", but I know that if an ideology that promotes torture is not morally wrong, then nothing is morally wrong. I certainly would not ask a Muslim supremacist about human rights.
@ SfT
I certainly do not hate you. I pity you in many ways, I have empathy for you in more.
On my spiritual journey (of over 30 years) where I did read and discuss with various sect leaders, many "holy" books including the one you revere in all its revised, gibberish like quality, I discovered that the two main Abrahamic religions are built on falsity and love of power.
I despise your choice of religion in its mendaciousness, its cruelty, its contradictions and its loathsome dreams of world domination.
I despise the way that, when challenged, you and your christian counterparts bleat "context" or " metaphor" as if that excuses the truly horrendous messages contained in those scripts you use to live your life and oppress others..
I do not hate you SfT, I will call you out when you are ill informed, homophobic, racist or just plain blinded by your own "I wanna believe" disposition.
You made several ill informed comments in your tirade, no doubt others will correct you. What I did find interesting, is that by applying your bleat of 'context' and reading the whole missive as a cry for help, I can see you trapped in the cognitive dissonance of your own making. Like a fly in a web, you dare not lose that which you know to be untrue, immoral and repulsive in your chosen religion, and it is hurting you.
There will always be a welcome for you on AR, not least from geezers like me, Arakish , TM, Sheldon and all the others, I think we can all see your struggle, even though you express it in callow and insulting terms.
Don't stop. I hope your humanity will win against the worst excesses of your chosen religion.
(Last sentence edited to convey its meaning satisfactorily)
Searching for truth,
So what will being religious do for you specifically? Do you think you you will become a better person if you follow a bunch of silly rules cooked up by ancient desert Arabs? Are you a bad person if you only pray once a week instead of 5 times a day? If a God exists why would you have to pray to him at all? Do you think whining 5 times a day to a being that created the entire universe will change his mind about how how he's going to treat you? Why not pray once every hour while you're awake to be sure that he gets your pleas?
@ skepticturk "yes, atheism is also a form of belief"
Here we go, set up your straw man and attack it. You frigging moron. You are going to log into an atheist site and then tell all the atheists what it is that they believe. How idiotic are you. No wonder you are religious. Atheism is defined by RELIGIONS. Non-believers, are the same thing as the heathen, skeptics, and the infidel. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GODS. That's it nothing more. There are no beliefs, no dogma, no rules, no rites and no rituals. There is no system of belief. NONE. Calling atheism a belief system is like calling celibacy a sex position. (Celibacy means NO SEX.) (ATHEISM mean NO BELIEF).
NEXT OUR FRIEND
@Skepticturk,
Has asserted that there are two reasons he returns to Islam. Not yet have we heard what they are. Blind assertion after blind assertion. What are the two things that pull you back to the Islamic myth? How hard can thins be to answer. Stop diverting.
1. _______________________________________
2. ________________________________________
Fill in the frigging blanks./
What? Atheism is a belief? When the 7734 did that happen. I always thought my atheism was a lack of beliefs in any god(s).
Well, I guess Someone Doing the X-Files Thing (The truth is out there) has taught me the error of my ways...
rmfr
I like your comparison:
"Calling atheism a belief system is like calling celibacy a sex position. (Celibacy means NO SEX.) (ATHEISM mean NO BELIEF)."
Going to borrow that one in the future.
Why not.. I borrowed it for some atheist lecture I heard someplace. These little insights just stick sometimes. I don't claim it as mine.
I like the "off is a channel" analogy myself.
@skepticturk
You state you are an atheist. The conclusion I reach is that you do not believe in a God. Thus, anything connected to the god claim (the bible, the quran) should not carry any meaning or weight. Whether you have faith or not, each document does contain interesting insights and positive things. But it is folly to accept the entire book as truth. At best, they are interesting folk tales, most probably fables.
You need to sort out your thinking, and decide whether you actually believe in a god. Because my distinct impression is that you are sitting on the fence. There is one of only two distinct choices, there is, or there is not a god. Make up your mind. Neither choice can be considered "wrong", but waffling between the two is morally dishonest. Not only with yourself, but for those around you.
Reply to Original Post:
Stop over thinking this, really it is simple, the religious side wants to make it complex, but it is simple.
Either you hold a religion idea to the standard of repeatable, tangible evidence based proof, or you don't.
But let it be known, if you did not weigh evidence in decision making in many other areas in your life, you would not be still alive today. An example would be crossing a busy street, do you cross it in faith or do you cross it using the real, solid tangible evidence that tells you when it is safe to cross?
You do the latter, or you would not be here today.
STILL WAITING:
1. _____________________________________________
2. _____________________________________________
@Cog Re: Still waiting
Might as well sit back and have a banana. You may be waiting awhile, from the looks of it.
@oldmanshouts
Thank you for confirming everything I already knew and said about people like you and their lack of understand of Islam
@ SfT
What arrogant piece of know nothing ......you are. You cherry pick your religion and have the gall to tell others that have actually read and researched with Sunni, Shia, Sufi and and other scholars that they confirm your nonsense conclusions? You are a sad sack and an uneducated piece of trash. You have been sadly misled and when you look in the mirror you must see the inner conflict between a kindly rational human and the derelict, unthinking. apologetic fantasising husk that you have become. Your life has become a wasteland of learned response instead of educated thought. Most religious have the excuse of accident of birth...but you? No, you chose one of the most barbaric violent and misogynistic medieval religions to base your life upon.
No wonder you choose that avatar, it describes your inner thought processes exactly. Good luck with your life, I doubt it will end well for you. .
Searching for truth,
"Thank you for confirming everything I already knew and said about people like you and their lack of understand of Islam"
I'm not religious and hope to never become religious but if I did I would jump into a raging volcano before I became a muslim. I don't have time to pray 5 times a day to a moon deity.
I don't blame you. I'd do the same if I had to pray even less than 5 times daily to a moon diety
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