Neil deGrasse Tyson on Dogma

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Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Dogma

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBWU3QzrefkS

you're thoughts? I tend to agree with Neil deGrasse Tyson on this point.

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ThePragmatic's picture
Neil deGrasse Tyson, is a

Neil deGrasse Tyson is a personal hero of mine. He is extremely good at pinpointing the real issues and expressing himself.

"What you don't want is dogma being the source of legislation, dogma being the source of curriculum, dogma being the source of political leadership. And other than that, if people just have have a view, that if Jesus... if someone feels that Jesus is their saviour, that sort of dogma within their personal lives, it only becomes an issue if they want their dogma to apply to everyone else."

But in this case I think he's forgetting an aspect of the problem with dogmatic beliefs that occurs even if it is a strictly personal belief:

- Such people still base their decisions on false and irrational beliefs. Because of that, they can cause a lot of harm even if they have good intentions.

Anser's picture
"But in this case I think he

"But in this case I think he's forgetting an aspect of the problem with dogmatic beliefs that occurs even if it is a strictly personal belief:

- Such people still base their decisions on false and irrational beliefs. Because of that, they can cause a lot of harm even if they have good intentions."

If a person bases their decisions on what in your opinion are "false and irrational beliefs" and because of those beliefs they treat people honestly, kindly, with generosity are their false and irrational beliefs bad?

ThePragmatic's picture
"If a person bases their

"If a person bases their decisions on what in your opinion are "false and irrational beliefs" and because of those beliefs they treat people honestly, kindly, with generosity are their false and irrational beliefs bad?"

Well, if it's "bad" is subjective and can be hard to determine since something that seems bad in short term can be good in the long run.

But, to be kind to someone based on false beliefs can be very negative indeed.

For example, Mother Teresa:
She withheld painkillers because she thought suffering would bring her patients closer to Christ. "The sick must suffer like Christ on the cross". Deliberately keeping her institutions in horrible conditions, with only stretcher beds and virtually no medical care, while she was making enough money to open several real clinics.

Misguided kindess, if you ask me.

ThePragmatic's picture
Another example.

Another example.

Virginia Tech shooting

"Cho's mother, increasingly concerned about his inattention to classwork, his classroom absences and his asocial behavior, sought help for him during summer 2006 from various churches in Northern Virginia.[40] According to Dong Cheol Lee, minister of One Mind Presbyterian Church of Washington (located in Woodbridge)[70] Cho's mother sought help from the church for Cho's problems. Lee added that "[Cho's] problem needed to be solved by spiritual power ... that's why she came to our church – because we were helping several people like him." Members of Lee's church even told Cho's mother that he was afflicted by "demonic power" and needed "deliverance.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho#Family_efforts

ThePragmatic's picture
@Anser

@Anser

Just to clarify:
I think people can have beliefs that are not anchored in reality, without it being a problem. But my point is, that even if they mean well, it absolutely CAN be a problem without them having a clue about it.

I also think it can be a problem on a broad scale, that can be a bit harder to spot on an individual level. Like for instance the "abstinence" policy of Christianity. I certainly think it causes more problems than it solves, and I certainly think that it is based on completely false beliefs that are disconnected from the reality we actually live in.

Anser's picture
First, I'd like to comment on

First, I'd like to comment on Mother Teresa.
Mother Teresa was under no obligation to help anyone. It was because of her beliefs that she helped at all.
I doubt her patients would have preferred that they not be helped. I find it difficult to criticize what she did or didn't do when I am doing nothing other than sending money to charities. Her "Missionaries of Charity" have done a lot of good for a lot of people which is more than I can say for the catholic church in general.
Misguided kindness seems preferable to no kindness at all.

As to Cho:
It appears that Cho's family was seeking help anywhere and everywhere they thought it might be found.

"Virginia Special Justice Paul Barnett certified in an order that Cho "presented an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness," but instead recommended treatment for Cho as an outpatient. On December 14, 2005, Cho was released from the mental health facility after Judge Barnett ordered Cho to undergo mental health treatment on an outpatient basis,"
Seeking the church's intervention seemed to be a last ditch effort after all else had failed.
I don't see where the church, their faith or his family's faith can be blamed.

As to the question of abstinence in the church:
No one put a gun to their heads and forced them into the priesthood. They signed up knowing that abstinence was part of the deal. There are many kinds of abstinence. Recovering addicts practice it every day. Had the priests been true to their religion's tenets they wouldn't have been buggering altar boys. Alternatively they could have left the priesthood, many did.

"I also think it can be a problem on a broad scale, that can be a bit harder to spot on an individual level."

Macrocosmically religion has become destructive.
On an individual level people make their own decisions.

ThePragmatic's picture
"I find it difficult to

"I find it difficult to criticize what she did or didn't do when I am doing nothing other than sending money to charities."

You make some good points about my example of Mother Theresa. Especially the above quote.
However, my point remains: it was an example of how delusion can cause people to make decisions that are "bad". Had she not had a crazy notion that suffering would bring people closer to Jesus, they would not have had to suffer.
Any number of people have done, and are doing, similar self sacrifices to help others, but they are not raised on a pedestal like she was/is, that is the work of the Catholic Church and some enthusiastic believers.

"It appears that Cho's family was seeking help anywhere and everywhere they thought it might be found."

Yes, they did. But again, it was an example of how false beliefs can trick people into making bad decisions. Had she not wasted time on trying to deliver her son from "demonic powers", it's possible that the massacre could have been avoided. I don't doubt her motives, just her beliefs that made her make such a decision.

"As to the question of abstinence in the church"

Actually, I wasn't referring to the absurd overrepresentation of child molesters within religious establishments (I don't think good intentions are involved there). I could have been a bit more specific: I intended to refer to how abstinence is taught to young people growing up.

"Macrocosmically religion has become destructive."

Yes, I agree.

"On an individual level people make their own decisions."

Yes, that is a large part of my point. It's why I think that any ideology that keeps people from basing their decisions on something other than reality, is potentially dangerous.

"Misguided kindness seems preferable to no kindness at all."

Perhaps in the particular case of Mother Theresa.
But you can take any number of exorcisms or "conversion therapies" of homosexuals as other not so preferable examples. Then there are people who probably think they are doing good by trying to remove evolution from education and insert creationism instead. What a horrible setback for humanity that would be. It's almost as bad as saying that medical personal should stop using their education and instead sacrifice birds and splatter blood on the sick to "cleanse" them.

I do not deny that religion has positive effects as well. And for some, it may even be a necessity to keep them coherent and functional. But I don't like that people on a large scale overlook the negative effects, believers and non-belivers alike. If a person like Ted Cruz wins the election in the US, I'm sure he would think that he is doing something good in going to war on religious motives.

I think that even if religion has played an important role, it is high time for humanity to grow up and get rid of their imaginary friend. We need to start living in reality.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
The Pragmatic, Neil deGrasse

The Pragmatic, Neil deGrasse Tyson lives in New York. AKA secular heaven. I doubt he encounters many people in his regular life that fit that criteria. Also, I'm pretty sure he implied your point in his statements

- Cheers :)

ThePragmatic's picture
"I'm pretty sure he implied

"I'm pretty sure he implied your point in his statements"

Respectfully, I disagree.

That was my hole point in saying that I think he's forgetting an aspect of the problem with dogmatic beliefs. I'm referring to people who are not out to make others conform to their belief system, but make their decisions based on the delusion they live in, and thereby cause harm to others without any intent.

For example, parents that are not pushing their religion on their childen, but are convinced that homosexuality is a sin. Fearing for their child, such a situation could end up with stupidities like "Conversion therapy" or complete rejection of the child.
Without the notion that "homosexuality is a sin", the likelihood for a better reaction and subsequently a more fruitful (or even great) relationship would be a lot greater.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
The pragmatic, that actually

The pragmatic, that actually would be pushing your beliefs on someone - the kid

ThePragmatic's picture
Well, my mind and your mind

Well, our minds seems to works very differently.

First, homosexuality was only intended as a generic example. It could be any beliefs made on false assumptions, like for example believing that someone is possessed by a demon or a medical researcher that doesn't believe in evolution.

Second, to me there is a big difference between forcing others to conform to a specific dogma, than to make a decision with good intentions but based on false assumptions, that affects others and causes harm.

Lets say I were living in the jungle and had been raised to believe that people who come from the outside claiming that they are "doctors" and want to help, are instead evil warlocks who are trying to take our souls with their sorcery. Then, when a doctor comes to the village to help a dying child, I kill the doctor. I'm very happy, because I'm convinced I have done something good: Killing an evil warlock and saving the soul of the dying child.
But I have made a decision based on false beliefs and instead killed a good person and destroyed the last hope for survival for the child.

To me, this would not mean that I was forcing my belief system on the doctor or the child, instead it means I have made a decision based on false beliefs with negative consequences on my surroundings.

EDITED 12/29/2015 - 09:49 for clarification and to fix typing mistakes.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
The Pragmatic, I believe

The Pragmatic, I believe something akin to this has already happened. Western scientists were initially met with suspicion in parts of Africa, but after a while, the africans in question began to trust them

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
besides, the gay rights have

Besides, the gay rights have largely been won in a legal sense. At least nationally. Now to either convince the homophobes the gays are not subhuman or just wait until they die.

I believe the anti-gay thing is going the way of the anti-black thing last century. Of course, there are going to be some holdouts, but eventually most people will get with the program. Some denominations, such as the Presbyterian, even openly accept gays.

Of course, Southern Baptists aren't going to budge on this.

ThePragmatic's picture
Although this is a bit of a

Although this is a bit of a sidestep from the point I was trying to make... Yes, I agree with you. And I hope progress will be faster and faster because of how easy it is to access information and to travel all over the world.

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
so, my contention, the

so, my contention, the pragmatic, is that in the long run, say 30 years, people are going to be less influenced by falsely held beliefs.

ThePragmatic's picture
I certainly hope so. :)

I certainly hope so. :)

Vincent Paul Tran1's picture
when people get rich, they

when people get rich, they stop caring about the stupid stuff like religion. Well some don't. But it takes a more benign form, usually. I just wonder if subjective poverty, not being the richest, will cause problems

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