Hi,
I just want to know if these people existed and the miracles and events associated to them are true. In Islam, Job was cured after 15 years of severe illness when God told him to strike his foot somewhere and a holy spring gush forth which replenished him and cured him completely. He was so sick that his skin used to fall down.
Enoch was an Islamic prophet called Idrees.
Elijah was a prophet too called Ilyas.
Can someone also shed some light on the Biblical giant Goliath? Did he exist? Was there ever a battle of David vs Goliath (let's assume David did exist)?
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One way to look at this is to ask what is "Job"? Is it the same "Job" as in the Old Testament? If it is, the Bible has an earlier story about "Job", which gives a different story than the Quran. Usually earlier texts are more likely to be accurate, but I don't think any credible historian can claim that "Job" was a real historical person or that the story is accurate, and here is why.
I tried to find out when the book of "Job" was written, could be something like 200 bce. about a guy who supposedly lived over a 1000 years before that. In history we usually don't give much strength or accuracy to such a great distance of time from the thing happening, to the thing being recorded. At that point all that can be said is that maybe a guy called "Job" or something like that existed at some point, and his story from riches to rags to riches again was told in oral form, until written down in the Book of Job. Then you would ask is there any other sources about "Job" outside of the Bible or the Quran. There is no extrabiblical or extraquranical texts that can corroborate the existance of "Job". This is no surprise, since very little material survives of random every day people from those times. Quran does not give extra credence to the claim, since the Quran is based on the Bible & Jewish & Christian lore. This of course doesn't not mean that a person on which the story might be based on had perhaps lived, but then you have to ask, do you believe it could be possible for miracles to happen. If not, who cares? The world is full of folklore. If you think that the Quran was given to Muhammed by Allah, in the form that it existed in Allah's mind in the cretion, well, all historical rationality is thrown out the window.
I don't think it is very useful to hunt down particular people in the Quran, as to whether they existed or not, but to ask why would you believe the Quran in the first place.
I'm not believing the quran but rather just trying to find the truth about the people whom I've been taught about. I'm trying to find the historically accurate version of the people I've mentioned.
Here's a link to an essay that offers an explanation of the Job story = http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Job.html#.WzsYyjyn-Ws
@ The OP
No. None of them have any 'historicity'.
There is zero independent evidence for any of the three you mention or many others in the bible or qu'ran. Assume 'made up' for every character that sounds as if they couldn't have existed e.g interactions with a god/angels/satan. Miraculous cures, prophecies miraculous events that benefit them and you will not go far wrong.
David and Goliath is a reboot of the Iliad.
I don't know what is Iliad? Can you explain please? The question of David and Goliath is very bothering to me and it's really annoying and stuck in my mind. I'd be eternally grateful to you if you can solve this fucking mystery.
The story of David and Goliath is just the retelling of an older Greek poem, known as the Iliad.
In case you didn't realize it: religions recycle stories.
Another example:
The story of Noah's Ark.
Hmmm. Why would the biblical scholars, and normal people like I saw a guy on TED, try to portray Goliath as a sick giant having acromegaly which causes excessive production of growth hormone and etc? They also say that he had to be taken to the battlefield by someone and that he was near-sighted and blabla.
What would you say about this? They try to portray Goliath in a disadvantage situation rather than David because he had a devastating weapon (slingshot).
This is the TED guy: https://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_the_unheard_story_of_david_an...
All these people base these claims on the wordings used by the Bible.
Goliath saying "You think I'm a dog that you've come with sticks?" Whereas David only has one stick. (double vision)
Goliath saying "Come to me and I'll...." Come to me because Goliath can't see David from far
Goliath being taken to the battlefield by someone
Goliath walking very slow
Can you debunk these claims that Goliath was sick? The point of making him sick is that the story no longer becomes a miraculous story because then David has an advantage if Goliath was so fucked up in terms of health. Also, it no longer means that David was helped by God but rather by the weaknesses of Goliath.
These points totally contradict the Iliad..........
I'm sorry if I'm asking retarded or stupid questions. I'm not trying to defend Bible or anything. Just need to clarify my own confusions
I can't say it enough, it is fiction. I know you were taught it was real, but not only is it fiction, it isn't even original fiction.
You might as well ask if Scooby Do really likes Scooby snacks, or just pretends that he does to make Shaggy happy.
Three hours ago you had never heard of the Iliad; now you feel confident to tell us what it does and does not contradict?
Dude, wasn't the Illiad written in 760-710 BC? That is almost 2 centuries AFTER the death of David. I'm not trying to be confident at all about anything. I'm trying to clarify my own confusions as I did mention before. Besides, I'm really appreciating the help and time you're providing to me so please don't mind.
Now, can you tell me that how can we say that David and Goliath are based on something that happened after the death of David?
The Iliad is about stories of mycenian Greece from about 1500-1000 bce or something. David & Goliath story was probably written in Babylon during the Jewish exile about 500 bce. If the stories of the Iliad are subsumed into David & Goliath story, there is no chronological error. What you have to remember about Biblical stories, or Quranical stories, is that most of them were not written when they say they have been written, but much later.
Thanks. I just checked what scholars believe was the date of the writing of Hebrew Bible and you're right. It's around 5-6 century BC.
Yeah, that makes the idea that Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy kind of problematic.
It's hilarious when people say things like: "the Bible is one of the earliest texts". We've got texts from 3000 bce, over 2000 years before the earliest possible texts in the Bible.
Those individuals almost certainly did not exist as mythological characters. There is a remote possibility that they existed as historical people. However, the real issue for you should be whether you should accept any miraculous claims attributed to them as true. I don't think you should accept any miraculous claims as true. You cannot verify claims that are said to have happened against the laws of nature.
David had 2 miracles. The softening of Iron in his hand which is already debunked by me and many others and the defeat of Goliath as an underdog.
I don't care if Goliath was sick or had acromegaly or something, I just want to know if he did exist and that the battle was a real one.
I really need a satisfying answer to Goliath because my mind's badly stuck on this one!
Here is a pointer for you. In the 30 years research I have done in my free time, there is only one thing the Bible ever got correct.
Some of the locations of the cities. Notice operative word is some.
Everything else in the Bible, as Nyarlathotep put it, are recycled myths and legends. Some of those myths and legends are thousands of years older than the Bible.
Every last person mentioned in the Bible is nothing more than the fantastical concoction of story tellers. Flim-flam con-men.
Job never existed.
Elijah never existed. Except if you include the charlatan named Elijah from about 400BCE.
Enoch never existed.
Goliath never existed. How tall was he? 6 cubits AND a span.
Historically a cubit was about 460mm. A span was about 230mm. Doing the math (460 x 6) + 230 = 2,990mm; or 2.99 meters. Or about 9.8 feet (9ft 9.6in). Basically, call it 10 feet. There have never been any skeletons of any human that tall ever discovered. That is not saying much since the David and Goliath fight supposedly occurred in the 11th century BCE. Sucks those Jews can't narrow the date any further.
Kind of off-topic, but here is the listing of Adam's genealogy:
"Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives..."
That is the opening line for the soap opera Days of Our Lives.
Me thinks ancient illiterate Levantese and Mesopotamians not know math and time too good.
Then again, today's Christians ain't much smarter/knowledgeable than 4000 years ago...
I rounded these numbers for ease's sake. Approximations are good enough to prove my point, with approximations = a result that is not necessarily exact, but is within the limits of accuracy required for a given purpose.
1 lunar revolution = 29.5 days.
1 lunar rotation = 708 hours.
1 terran revolution = 365.25 days.
1 terran rotation = 24 hours.
Now here is one question for you dumb-ass Jews and Christians:
1) Way back in ancient times, what was the most prominent synodical period of that time?
Cannot answer, can you? (Meaning the Absolutists.)
It was the synodical period of the moon. Think about it. Hell, if I were to use the moons synod, then I have already lived 705 of their "years."
As Native Americans used the moon, so did the Levantese and Mesopotamians. Thus, I GUARANTEE those numbers given as years is actually the number of synodical periods of the moon. Let's take a look...
The actual equation used to calculate the true number of years:
B × M ÷ D = Y;
where B = the Bible number of years,
M = number of days in a lunar revolution,
D = number of days in a terran revolution,
and Y = actual number of years.
Note: days (d) below are rounded to nearest 0.25 day.
All the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years, then he died.
930 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 75.1129363 years; 75y 41.25d.
All of the days of Seth were nine hundred twelve years, then he died.
912 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 73.6591376 years; 73y 240.75d.
All of the days of Enosh were nine hundred five years, then he died.
905 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 73.0937714 years; 73y 34.25d.
All of the days of Kenan were nine hundred ten years, then he died.
910 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 73.4976044 years; 73y 181.75d.
All of the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety-five years, then he died.
895 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 72.2861054 years; 72y 104.5d.
All of the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty-two years, then he died.
962 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 77.6974675 years; 77y 254.75d.
All the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years.
365 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 29.4798084 years; 29y 175.25d.
All the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty-nine years, then he died.
969 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 78.2628337 years; 78y 96d.
All the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy-seven years, then he died.
777 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 62.7556468 years; 62y 276d.
All the days of Noah were nine hundred fifty years, and then he died.
950 × 29.5 ÷ 365.25 = 76.7282683 years; 76y 266d.
See. They were kind of correct.
I have been combing through my many DVDs and CDs for all my research notes. I am putting them into my next book Riding Some Wild Tangents 2: I'm Out the Closet Now! It is just going to take me some time because I have a few hundred of them to go through. Just wished I weren't such a dumb-ass and labeled them better.
rmfr
Damn, you ripped the guts of the religious claims of their massive longevity of lives.
I shall leave the question of historical accuracy to those more erudite on the topic. However as is always the case one cannot rationally assert historical anecdotal claims as evidence for supernatural events, no matter how historically accurate they are.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or as I keep pointing out in my bungling plodding fashion, to validate a claim requires that objective evidence commensurate to the claim be demonstrated to support it.
A story about a mystery cure for a mystery illness is laughably inadequate by any reasonably objective standard. Again even if the story's authenticity were almost beyond reasonable doubt, all you'd have is a story about an unexplained event.
The only answer we can give with reference to such poorly attributed, apparently literary figures from so long ago is this: while those characters could have been based on real people, we can have essentially no confidence that they did exist. Nor, if they did, can we claim to know anything about them with confidence.
So too for miracle claims. The only only reasonable position is that they did not. We have no credible evidence that anything has ever happened that contravenes the laws of physics. We have lots of credible examples of things happening in general accordance with the laws of physics. Therefore we have no reason to accept that such things happen and many reasons to suppose they don't.
Ultimately, all knowledge is probablistic. All we can do is assess how likely something is and adjust our beliefs and behavior accordingly. If you're interested in delving deeper on that epistemology applied to ancient texts, Richard Carrier's Proving History is an excellent resource.
Good post, balanced objective and rational. Half a mark off for not quoting Hume, but I'm being petty.