Hello, I am debating with my Muslim friend and he is a bit ignorant, he gives me short answers like "well god wanted it that way" and such. He keeps talking about how Muhammad was illiterate and wrote the Quran and how the Quran predicted what happened inside a mother. He also claims that life is meaningless without a good or evil test. I need some help with solid facts. I send him my proofs and he explains them with stupid reasons, if he has a reply to any of your facts I will post them here so you can disprove him. Show me your power atheists and let's save one more persons life from this shitstorm! Thanks! :)
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I am not interested in converting anyone. However , if you can persuade your friend to join this site I will be happy as hell to argue with him.
Sure, I will make sure to do that ASAP :) He can also join the debate thing, that's what I'm asking for, I am arguing with him, I need solid facts that will pack a punch.
I Think you will spend your rich time of nothing!, Because your friend will answer all questions religiously, as you know, The religious answers does not make any change about debate between you and him, so i recommend you to debate him about existence of god not existence of islamic god.
That's what I am doing but he keeps point back at Islam and says that "my religion has the proof of god, without Islam I would be athiest"
Fine. Prove that an islamic god exists. Ready, go. I write this because he / she cannot do so. There is no good proof that gods exist. There is no good evidence that god or gods exist. The answer is that theists have been failing to provide proof or good evidence for thousands of years
dotNullified
You don't convert people to Atheism. They deconvert themselves to being an Atheist. Sounds like your friend is a fundie islamist.
Oh I'm sorry for miswording it :)
My suggestions.....
1/ Mohammed did not write the quran..... it was delivered as a recitation...it was written down by Mohammed's companions.
2/ The Quran we have today...is not as it originated....it has been changed over time... look up the Sanaa Palimpsest... this is a VERY early Quran that is NOT the traditional Uthmanic version. But traditional thought says it should not exist.
3/ In the Isra /Miraj ....Mohammed is flown through the air on a "fabulous" beast ..... ask your friend where he was taken to.....my bet
is he will answer Jerusalem ..... and there to see either the Temple or the Dome of the Rock mosque... neither of which were in
existence during the prophets life time.
4/ Follow on by asking where was he really taken to...
5/Ask why Abbu Bakr backed up the prophet by saying he too had seen the said building.... (either the temple or the mosque.)
That should be enough to at least make him think...... BUT I would urge you to broach these things "gently"..... remember he has been told these things that he holds true all his life...teachers ,parents and imams have all filled up his head with untruths.... you are trying to bring light into darkness.....so gently does it...do not go kicking in the doors....... just present what you have and tell him he can take it or leave it as he pleases...but if he has questions to look these things up for himself......after all why should he believe what you tell him......you are a Kuffur and your ideas are Harram..... you can only point him in the right direction.
In the final analysis it is up to him.
Thanks :)
Ah sadly a person doesn't deconvert just because someone else wants them to. He has to actually be willing to go outside his comfort zone and question his views wholeheartedly. I'd ask him, what qualities/powers makes a God a God then work from there.You are probably wasting your time if he is a fundie.
If the guy is a fundie he wouldn't have any non-believers as friends. I think dotNullified is playing with a dangerous viper and he may get bitten.
Atheism is not about converting anyone. I don't think that you can argue with this person anyway. I'd drop it.
mykcob4,
It's not wise to play with vipers. I hope he listens.
Suspect to cops: I killed two roommates for disrespecting my Muslim faith
By Joshua Rhett Miller May 22, 2017 | 2:04pm | Updated
http://nypost.com/2017/05/22/suspect-to-cops-i-killed-two-roommates-for-...
He was chatting on neo-nazi websites.
Weak discusting people are being egged on to commit these horrible murders. Death isn't worth trying to convince a friend he's deluded. That's so sad
I always find it funny that Muslims actually think the so called "Quranic science" proves that the Quran has divine origin. If your friend is in this camp, I would focus on this, because 1) it is demonstrably false and 2) what is in the Quran is actually the view of a seventh century expert on the idea.
So, for example, the embryonic development is just not correct. See e.g. here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
There is also the sun setting in to a muddy spring and other glorious details of the natural world. (https://quran.com/18/86)
@dotnullified. I do not believe atheism to be a cult or religion.
So I do not care for converting someone else to the cause of atheism as that does not exist.
you keep asking for powerful facts to counter your friends argument. It would be more prudent for you to learn about science and religion for that matter first hand for your own sake than to convert another.
Sorry that is my personal opinion. Many a times we find atheist coming here looking for talking points to use in a debate with others. The whole point of being skeptical is to learn more. Somehow you want us to take on your debate but don't want to learn more yourself. Well whatever you chose for yourself.
you're wasting your precious time. debating these people is futile.
dotNullified,
I wrote this recently to a Muslim (Ugh, I know quoting myself. Glad I'm using a pen name!)
"You wrote that Islam was stable and not open to reformation and that human behavior and traits are “basically the same across times”. And you were were happy and proud about this. I thought your comment was interesting. I have the exact opposite view. I think the greatest weakness of Islam, which makes me unhappy, is that the Quran claims to be immutable. And I think one of human beings greatest strengths, which I am proud of, is that we are able to change our behavior and traits.
I will use one example, but there are many, to demonstrate my point that inviolate holy texts like the Quran are stifling to human progress. In our past, slavery was widespread-virtually universal-and socially acceptable. Now, it is outlawed in all countries and universally reviled. Yet the Quran accepted slavery. Yes, it encouraged freeing slaves and treating them well. Yes, this attitude was progressive for its time and place. But can you imagine a leader today being lauded if he legalized slavery but encouraged the freeing of slaves and the good treatment of the slaves one chose to keep? Right, it’s unimaginable. Slavery has become as socially unacceptable as cannibalism. Yet the Quran says:
4:36 "Show kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbor who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbor who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and the slaves whom your right hands possess.”
X, if you’ve read the Quran, you know that I’ve chosen one of the more charitable passages about slavery. If you haven’t read the Quran, and I know many Muslims haven’t read it in their native language, I hope you do. Warning, it’s not for the faint of heart. When I read the Quran in English, I became an atheist before I finished the first surah (chapter).
If the Quran is the last and perfect word and it regulates slavery, Muslims have a problem. They must either accept this or not. If they stick with the former, they worship a god that does not denounce slavery. If they do the latter (i.e., reject or ignore passages in the Quran) they are conceding the fallibility of the Quran. And if the Quran is wrong about slavery, and surely any decent person would agree with that, then the claim that the Quran is perfect is a lie."
Reading the Quran-elimination through illumination- is good. But, dotNullified, why bother with any of this. Just read C. Hitchen's God is Not Great.
@dotNullified -- Hello my friend. Below is my reply to your original-post.. a suggestion:
Ask what he would write if he were to author his own 'Quran'.
Would he copy the Quran word-for-word? .. maybe leave some bits out? .. edit or update sections?
Perhaps he would write an entirely new text; echoing the obvious kindness and wisdom, but not the righteous hatred and violence.
The interesting thing is - if he does think himself capable of writing such a book of his own collected wisdom, perhaps he will then reconsider how the original holy texts came to be, and from where morality really arises.
While compiling his own thoughts on what is good and just, he may also see the common threads that really bind all of humanity.
My thoughts.. I hope they help.
You're debating a muslim. Good for you. You're trying to convert them. Why? Why is that your job? Why do you care what they believe?
I don't give a shit about what people believe. I care about how their beliefs affect my life.
All you can do is try an planet the seeds of doubt. Make them start to think about their beliefs.
I think the best you can hope for is planting the seed of doubt as others have said, the rest depends on him and factors like free will and education. There are people who have managed to escape their religion but it's a difficult process... "Converting him" is quite a stretch IMO, but we can hope that in years to come, some of the arguments might get stuck in his head and re-examined later, perhaps at a more mature stage of his life? I also have a Muslim friend and while I wouldn't say it's impossible, a lot of things have to change for him, for example to change his environment. As long as he stays where he has always stayed and done what he has always done, nothing is going to change. It's definitely a learned mindset. His beliefs are reinforced and further cemented by his surroundings and community.
To share a bit of my experience with my Muslim friend - he's definitely very smart but his childhood indoctrination is so strong... he not only believes in god without evidence, but also in the face of strong contradictory evidence. And when you think about it, it makes sense - if indoctrination didn't work, religions like Christianity and Islam wouldn't have survived to this day. It is important to take it easy and do it in a non-bashful way, because he is emotionally attached to his beliefs. Trolling should definitely be avoided!! The one time I think I had some sort of progress was when we talked about different religions (poly- and monotheistic), because he has never before imagined religions could be studied like any other subject (and also historically, back in time) - he has always taken his religion for granted and never questioned it. Some time had passed and he himself came to me and started asking questions. I could tell he is really willing to learn new POVs after I had successfully managed to introduce the concept of religion as a cultural phenomenon to him, that varies among different peoples. That's not a small thing.
Two things you may try, if you haven't already:
- talk about indoctrination and how it works: he is only Muslim because he was brought up this way; if he wasn't taught religion as a child, he would have continued to be an atheist and grow up as one, the natural way he was born, before any deity was introduced to him. His beliefs were spoonfed to him by figures of authority, usually parents, when he was too young to examine them critically and say no. His religion is not immutable like the color of his skin or eyes, it is a learned behaviour.
-Ask him to picture the world before 7th century (that's when Islam was created). There are no muslims anywhere in the world, not a single mosque built, Islam doesn't exist because the Qur'an isn't written yet... Ask him if this thought makes him feel weird. There is Christianity, which has existed for about 700 years already, and Judaism which is even older, but not Islam. It is the youngest Abrahamic religion, only 1300 years old. Why would Allah wait for 700 years to come into existence and give his holy book to his people? It doesn't make sense. And why does the Qur'an contains all the prophets and characters from Judaism + Jesus? Did Allah read the Bible and like it before reciting the Qur'an to his people? It just doesn't make sense... And another thing - Jesus exists in the Qur-an as well, but as an ordinary prophet. If Jesus has existed for at least 700 years before the Qur'an, the only way he might have gotten there is by plagiarism, which disqualifies his holy book. And the old Jewish myth of Adam is Eve is also in the Qur'an, with changed names....
All in all I'd say go for it, just don't make it the purpose of your life. xD