I would argue like the accident of birth that makes someone a Muslim or Christian it also leads to them being in one country or another. Depending on your country of birth is where one would get their sense of Patriotism or "faith" if you will in the state aka "higher power". This leads to "my country is better than your country" attitude a lot like the "my god is bigger than your god". The correlations honestly go on and on. I think most can see Nationalism is religion and to be honest this is just a jumping of point to the real question.
Is communal national identity doomed to be corrupt like any other institution of faith?
I believe power corrupts period and I have all of the combined human history to back my belief. I started a web series that explores Nationalism as religious faith and how through belief of self righteousness governments may purge their own people in arrests or worst. If you care to check it out I will link it below
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Finding similarities between any two groups is surprising easy to get. That does not mean they are alike or mean that the label of one applies to the other. Religion and nationalism are superficially similar at best.
But both are based around faith in a higher power. I feel like the similarities are more then superficial in the case of these two.
No, in my nation I am the higher power because I exercise my democratic rights. In my nation politicians are held accountable.
Which nation do you belong to? And I mean Nationalism as in the patriotic worship of countries people have and a lot of the time the leaders of this patriotic worship sessions "the clergy" if you will are not people necessarily the politicians in power but are people like tv personalities, radio host, and the Alex Jones's of the world.
Where do you get this sort of garbage? Nationalism has nothing to do with religious beliefs! You can be an avoid atheist like Richard Spencer or a Christian like Lauren Southern.
Im saying that some people worship nations a lot like they worship gods and patriotic cults form that are a lot like organized religion around people like Alex Jones or other popular political pundants and sometimes around politicians themselves like in the case of Trump.
Actually there is some correlation between right wing or conservative politics, nationalism and religiosity. It's not true of everyone of course, and perhaps this kind of stereotyping is something we ought to be wary of. Perhaps all types of stereotyping is something we ought to be wary of.
@trustyoursources
When people confuse patriotism for blind obedience, then yes, nationalism is a religion. Nationalism, popularism, even patriotism are religions of a sort when people hold being a part or obedient to the "ism" instead of following an ethical code of conduct and a moral rule of law.
The difference in the nation of the United State of America that is unique to all the other nations that exist and existed is the Constitution. This Constitution is not just for the United States but for humanity. It is the rule of law and an example to the world. One great humanitarian that recognized that and made it a shining example was Elenor Roosevelt who chaired and authored the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Elenor+Roosevelt+wrote+the+UN+bill+of+ri...
This is why no one is supposed to pledge their allegiance to anything but the Constitution. Essentially pledging to abide obey and protect the rule of law. This nation is a nation of laws, not men, is a profound statement. We are not a nation of countrymen, of patriots. We are a nation of laws. That is what is different about the United States and why it is wholly unAmerican to be nationalistic or popularist. Our military pledges to obey and protect the Constitution, not an allegiance to the flag or obedience to the president.
Your concept of Nationalism makes a lot of sense I wish more people thought that way.
That makes a lot of sense, nationalism tends to erode civil liberties domestically, as individual rights are seen as subservient to national interest, and of course it devalues other nation states by definition. I liked Professor Dawkins's meme "we are all Africans" as that puts nationalism in perspective, at least in an evolutionary context.
Nationalism was definitely a religion in imperialist Japan. State Shinto was proclaimed the national religion with the Emperor as its god. When the Japanese invaded China and Southeast Asia and attacked the United States, they were on a mission from god to expand and strengthen their sacred country, which was the home of the gods.
Close ties between the state and religion are a serious threat to peace. We should be very worried about Putin's close ties to the Russian Orthodox church.
https://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/europe/2017/10/putin-triumph-christianit...
Yeah theocracy is an absolutely terrifying concept.
"Nationalism was definitely a religion in imperialist Japan."
It certainly was, and the fascist militarists in Japan exploited the theistic cult of the emperor for maximum effect, using decades of nationalistic indoctrination that brainwashed ordinary Japanese into racist ideologies that viewed other nationalities as sub-human, much as Hitler and the Nazis did. Of course there are compelling arguments that totalitarian regimes that invest absolute power in one dictator are all quasi religious, so regimes like Stalinism, Nazism, North Korea and Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge for example are all quasi religious and forma cult like worship around the leader. These regimes of course are usually either totally opposed to established religions or form a one sided opportunistic relationship as with Hitler's concordat with the RCC, and Stalin's support of the Russian Orthodox Christian church. This is what most established religions do, either aggressively try to eradicate other religions, or gradually erode or modify them from a position of power after forming an initial partnership.
Basically nationalism is just taking credit for accomplishments they had no part in. "We" are the greatest nation on earth! Well, what did you do that was so great? Most people live mediocre lives, which is OK! Just don't take credit for someone that excelled because you were born within the same arbitrarily drawn lines.
I agree I always found group identity pride only big with people who have very little to be proud of as individuals. Honestly hearing it is just straight up gross like rancid verbal diarrhea.
Putin is a nationalist, and I don't know if I'd call him religious. Gandhi was a nationalist and a Hindu. Kim Jung Un is a nationalist, and he's not religious. Trump is a nationalist, and he's not religious (despite what gullible religious leaders say about him having a conversion). Hugo Chavez was a nationalist.
There are lots of nationalsits who left-wing, right-wing, religious, non-religious, Christian, atheist, Hindu, Sikh, etc. Nationalism comes in many shapes and sizes. It's really a spectrum from nationalism to globalism, with most of us being somewhere away from ether extreme on the spectrum. The religious spectrum is another. As is the capitalism-socialism is another.
@Glacier: Putin is a nationalist, and I don't know if I'd call him religious.
It doesn't matter whether or not he's religious personally. What does matter is that he appears to be building close ties with the church and giving them a privileged status in Russia. I think he sees religion as a tool or a weapon.
What matters with Putin is that he kills his enemies. If he's cozying up with the church, it's probably the other way around. Russia has a history of killing Christians who don't cozy up to the government, and the leadership of the Orthodox church doesn't want to get on Putin's bad side.
Glacier
Kim Jung Un regards himself as a religion a god and demands religious obedience to him as a god.
Putin is a nationalist and a devout Russian Orthodox Catholic. In fact, it is dangerous to say anything against the Russian Orthodox Catholic church in Russia right now. Gandhi relied on Hinduism to move the people to revolt against the British. Hugo Chavez isn't a nationalist he is a mafia-style thug and a devout catholic.
That's true never forget Pussy Riot. It doesn't matter if Trump or Putin really believe because either way they are using religion as conceptual tools of power and control.
I find it annoying when people basically define religion as any ideology they don't like. In that respect, the outcome always "proves" the theory, irrespective of the outcome. It goes like this:
I don't like religion.
I don't like nationalism.
Therefore, nationalism is religious.
P.S. This is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG8RiPQQFwM
What a fucking stupid video Glacier. A FOX video from a so-called expert that doesn't like liberals but offers NO proof. I watched about 10 sec.s of this video and stopped. The Democratic Party invented White Nationalism? Bullshit. There are self-proclaimed white nationalists!
It's apparent that
1) You don't like Liberals
2) You watch FOX even though FOX is the most notoriously inaccurate most biased media outlet in US history
3) You don't understand what "nationalism' is.
The OP is and has explained how "nationalism" goes and did so quite precisely. Nationalists are false patriots and they fall into a euphoric state of mental retardation which deprives them of ethics, morals, and common sense. The rise to the lowest common denominator of mob behavior. They don't respect the rule of law. They treat their party leaders like gods apologizing for everything that they do. The Tea Party, Freedom Caucus, Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarians, all justifying the wrongs, the lies, and the criminal behavior of Trump. I bet you are a Rush, O'Reilly, Matt Drudge, Beck, Tucker Carlson, Ann Colter, Sean Hannity, Neil Cavuto, fan as well! All PROVEN liars and propagandist!
@Glacier: I don't like religion, I don't like nationalism.Therefore, nationalism is religious.
Maybe that formula applies to some people. But history shows a clear link between nationalism and religion. Hatred of Papism was a core element in English nationalism for centuries after Elizabeth I. I've already mentioned State Shinto in Japan. Perhaps the most obvious example of religious nationalism or a nationalist religion is Judaism.
Religion is useful to nationalism in many ways. Your armies always have god on their side. Soldiers can be promised a place a heaven if they die. And of course there's nothing like religion for setting people at each other's throats by highlighting the difference between "us" and "them".
But is not worshiping country or god pretty much doing the same thing. Getting a high from being connected to a "higher power" and some how doing its will etc. even though you are just stroking your own ego.
@trustyoursources Original Post
My 2 cents:
I would say nationalism shares some traits and similarities to religions, but also have important differences. As humans are a clan/tribal/group oriented species we are almost programmed by nature to harmonize with our peers. Why do people root for the local sports team over some other one? Why do people identify and support their local towns, counties, states and countries?
Does it get corrupted? For sure. I would say the USA has gotten very corrupt, not as corrupt as others currently, but it certainly seems US is already mostly an oligarchy and well on its way to be fully an oligarchy, all the while tricking people that is not the case and not happening.
Nationalism needs to be treated as religious belief and destroyed on the internet.
TYS, substitute, say, a school name, a sports team, or the word family for nationalism and country in your OP. Are they religions?
I would argue some are if they worship a higher power in some way and believe they are doing the bidding of a higher power. Yes those institutions can lead to religious behavior and have in the past.
@trustyoursources: those institutions can lead to religious behavior
Absolutely right.
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Some might find this interesting (and kind of is on topic):
Orwell's Notes on Nationalism
eta: I really can't recommend this work strongly enough. It blew my mind when I first read it; it changed me.
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