A quick internet search gives this simple difference: patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does.
While nationalism is clearly a trait you don't want to see in people, patriotism still receives mixed feelings.
My questions are:
1) What are your views on patriotism?
2) How can you be proud of something just because you were randomly born there?
3) How can you be proud of the actions of your country where you had little or almost no contribution to the same (applicable to the majority of the citizens)?
4) Should countries and borders exist to serve any other purpose than ease of administration and/or for government policies?
I am new to the forum so kindly redirect me if this discussion has been done in the past.
Thanks!
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Here is the first thing that popped into my mind. A good example of the difference. Nazis were Nationalists. Americans were Patriots, not only for themselves, but humanity in general to stop the Nazis.
Copied the OP and I'll be back later.
rmfr
1) I'm certain I have an irrational fondness for the country I was born and raised in, or at least, my taste is different from what it would have been if I had been born and raised elsewhere.
2) It is silly to be proud of a place just because you were born there.
3) Similarly, it is silly to be proud of a country just because you were born or raised there.
4) Ideally, there'd be no borders. But such a policy would be disastrous in the short to medium term because it would be a security risk and be too tumultuous to those who live in comparatively rich countries.
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/nationalism-patriotism
Rickdiculous
1) What are your views on patriotism?
Patriotism, as you defined, is pride for a country for what it does. I am proud to be an American. However, foremost, I am a Scotish Highlander by ancestry. Even a recent DNA test shows I am 86% Scotch-Irish (Highlander), 10% Nordic, 4% other European. Ultimately, as far as I am concerned, I am a Human Being, first and foremost, of Scotish Highlander descent born, raised, and living in America. The only pride I have in America is the freedoms for which it was created. Otherwise, no. Sorry. I am not proud of what America has been doing for the almost 60 years I have been alive. Especially, for allowing religions to have more rights and freedoms to persecute non-believers than I do for simply being a citizen.
2) How can you be proud of something just because you were randomly born there?
Ultimately, my pride comes from the fact that I am a Human Being. All other considerations are rescinded.
3) How can you be proud of the actions of your country where you had little or almost no contribution to the same (applicable to the majority of the citizens)?
Actually, I have had some active contribution for the actions of my country having served in the US Navy. At the time, I was still a young brat just fresh out of my diapers of childhood. I felt pride for the service I committed myself to doing. I also felt it was an honor due to the fact that the eldest son of each generation of my paternal ancestry has served in a "military" function for the last 18 generations. Unfortunately, this honor and pride ended with me. I had twin daughters who, along with me wife, were murdered by a drunk driver. Thus, I am the last.
4) Should countries and borders exist to serve any other purpose than ease of administration and/or for government policies?
Here is a quote my mentor has pasted to one of the walls of his office that I made in a discussion of professors and post-graduate students in the geography/geology department of my university. “Only man defines borders. Otherwise, borders do not exist.” Until ALL of humanity realizes this, there shall always be conflict.
I am new to the forum so kindly redirect me if this discussion has been done in the past.
And a hearty welcome to our little corner of Hell. The temperature is a nice comfortable 15,836°C. Just ask any theist.
Jump right in. But, forewarning, this is an "at your own risk" forum board. Have fun. Peruse the threads.
rmfr
Might find this an interesting read: Notes on Nationalism - George Orwell
If you prefer a video summary: here.
Thank you Nyar. Great links.
rmfr
Thank you for the welcome!
I always think of it like this:
"You can't be proud of anything unless you have made a contribution for it".
Just how I can't be proud that I won the lottery.
Now, why has there not been any movement to address this? I am sure a lot of problems in the world would be solved if one could just understand that you being born somewhere has nothing to do with anything.
@Orignal post by Rickdiculous
1) What are your views on patriotism?
It is in humans nature to "clan up" usually with family, but in a world with 7+ billion people there is also towns, cities, states, and countries. People identify with their family and last name, their street, their town, their state (think pro sport teams!) and their country and in effort to fit in and belong they tend to get various levels of patriotic towards it.
2) How can you be proud of something just because you were randomly born there?
Perhaps if you helped build it, make even just your immediate area a little better, maybe you volunteer once a month to pick up trash to make your own town a little cleaner, but simply being born there does not do much. I do not live in the town/city/state I was born in I have no patriotism specifically towards the city I was born in.
3) How can you be proud of the actions of your country where you had little or almost no contribution to the same (applicable to the majority of the citizens)?
I tend to think more local effects. I keep a neat and organized and well run home where things work, where people are safe and happy. I work hard and pay my taxes that supports the local schools, parks. I have volunteered at the local food bank and donated food and money to aid those less fortunate then myself. My actions have had an effect in my local area, I do not worry much about the national level, I disagree with many large parts of the national level of spending. (Less spending on military and walls, subsidizing churches etc!)
4) Should countries and borders exist to serve any other purpose than ease of administration and/or for government policies?
Do borders serve more purpose then ease of administration? Of course it does. Would I like to see a world with no borders and everyone being equal? Absolutely. But I am fully aware that we are still many steps away from that, and may even be sliding backwards on that goal as protectionism and isolation of late has become increasingly popular.
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1) Too many people hide behind the label of "patriot" and use it to justify doing bad things. It also leads me to conclude that very few think things through, they just wear the flag and that's good enough for them. IMO patriotism is looking back in history while nationalism is looking towards a hopeful future.
2) Of course I am proud of my nation of birth. I recognize my bias. But that does not blind me to the fact that no nation is perfect. For example, I would love to live a year in St Petersburg because it is so rich in culture and the arts. On the other side of the coin, attending a Chicago Bears game at Soldier Field is on my bucket list. We can delve in each nation's standings in such fields as health care, communications, transportation, and education. But those numbers are readily available with a quick search.
3) I do not ascribe to the belief that a charismatic leader actually contributes much to the overall health of a nation. The positive long term changes almost always start at the bottom level, with humble citizens doing simple and seemingly ordinary things. High profile figures may benefit from popular opinion and use such sentiments to make changes. But it is the ordinary citizenry who really make a nation what it is. I live by the tenet that when I die I want to leave this planet a better place, and contribute, even if it is minuscule. My favorite phrase is "reciprocal altruism".
4) Good fences can make for good neighbors. There are times when different communities that are in close proximity posses a strong dislike for each other. The short term solution (and it may last for centuries) is to try to keep those nations/communities separate until they reach the day when the dislike has evaporated. The concept of no borders is admirable, and I hope that one it it comes to pass. But we are many centuries from achieving that goal. We must first learn to accommodate other cultures.
I do embrace Marx's concept that a truly utopian society must be classless and stateless. But I definitely disagree on his methods. The state should be used to do things that private individuals or corporations find difficult, if not impossible (for example, the Interstates).
How can one be "proud" of his/her nation of birth? I understand that one might have a liking for it because he/she was brought up there, which would be the case if he/she were brought up anywhere else in the world.
Isn't being proud an issue? Would there be less violence in the world if no one cared where he/she was born?
Doesn't patriotism and nationalism still come under our "tribal mentality" which has resulted in so much destruction?
Rickdiculous,
"Isn't being proud an issue? Would there be less violence in the world if no one cared where he/she was born?"
There is almost nothing more important than where you live. It determines everything in your whole life.
Absolutely.
But does that make your place special? And do you need to be proud about it?
No.
@ Rickdiculos
As long as you are living there, yes. Any place I live is special because I am living there.
As long as you are living there, yes. I am proud of where I am living. Even though it is also dangerous due to the coyotes, wolves, and bears, O! My!
Any place I live I am both proud of and feel is special. Especially since I am still alive and should be dead. Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with feeling a place where you are living is special and to be proud of.
rmfr
I think we are talking at different levels. Let me give you an example:
I love my place of birth. It has amazing weather, I just can't get enough of the food and I have known many people there. This makes the place special, but just for me.
This is the case with everyone in the world and all of us have a special connection with a place (birth or brought up or any place).
So, to re-frame my question; does it make your place more special (objectively speaking)?
Also, do you feel proud to belong to this place just because say you were born in it?
The main question still remains open: Do we need patriotism to have a functioning society? If yes, then what is that it achieves?
@ Rickdiculous
BTW: Love your Screen Name. Kewl.
Objectively speaking, the only special and prideful place is the planet Earth. Why? Because us humans evolved here and live here.
Otherwise, special and prideful places are entirely subjective.
Honestly, no. The only purpose patriotism may serve is in defense of one's habitation.
rmfr
Tha*burps*nks!
"How can one be "proud" of his/her nation of birth?"
Because that is the community one is born into. Humans are a social species, and identifying and bonding with one's community is a part of that social activity. We also have our blinders on. We tend to minimize the faults of our community and glorify the positive aspects. I may live in a shithole surrounded by assholes, but my team just won a major sporting tournament. Yea.
Well, you are still just explaining the reason behind this general feeling of entitlement a human being has. I get that. I get why one would generally feel that way.
But, does that mean we should continue feeling that way? Is it necessary for societies to function? I think not.
And hasn't it done more harm than good in the past?
Also, I think we can still enjoy sports without the "pride".
Showy patriotism/nationalism is just a symptom of deep personal insecurity. If the only thing you've ever achieved is to be born in the USA, the UK, etc., then you have a lot to feel insecure about.
The great thing about patriotism is that whichever country you identify with, you can always be sure that god's on your side. If your side wins, god will justify every evil thing your country has done. If you lose, god will punish your enemies in the afterlife.
A patriot will tickle their fancy with a feather but a nationalist will use the whole eagle.
This still makes patriotism seem like a good thing to have, which is my point.
Consider just patriotism and justify why being proud of your place of birth or any place for that matter must be considered "good".
It seems to me :
- Nationalism is more like a believe , They are just support and believe in something without thinking and criticizing .. And that's gonna be used a lot to fooling the people and to guide them for the political purposes of the state without any noises from the people and the history showed us many regimes used this kind of strong feeling in the people to control them For example Nazism , Fascism and Religious kingdoms ,etc .. It's a problem of identity that's getting used which is actually a philosophical topic , Hope you read about it it's amazing ..
Patriotism is more rational in somehow .. And the important thing that it's caring about the reality itself not a specific ideology cause also nationalism It doesn't depend on the race only , No it depends on the ethnicity in general which is a mix factors It can be a race with a specific religious ideology exactly like Nazism or the old wars which was between Catholics and Protestants , For example Don't you see the concept of Arabic and Muslims ? Or why many religious people in white community going with white nationalism "conservatives " !! There is differences between all of the groups but It's kind of mix Cause actually all of those stuff are inherent identities , They just were born with it and they're being against the change of their inherent identities why ? In fundamentalism it's clear they think they have an absolute truth but In the racism groups they also think they're special they have something other people don't like the delusional theories about Caucasian race that they're actually more intelligent than others !! With no caring about the natural resources that could change the culture + language which is gonna effect the way we think ! We inherent our minds BTW in languages ,etc ... There is specific conditions that gonna make a society developing .. And who were /are guiding and developing the civilizations are always the minority , And the science is really the heart of the civilization all of the others are workers .
So I think criticism should be there we are slaves If we don't use our minds in any conditions .. Our identities are changing in every moment and who don't accept the changes they gonna suffer ( e.g fundamentals ) , Everything change in this existence and we should be capable .
1) What are your views on patriotism?
I Think Patriotism has been perverted by Nationalists who mask themselves behind it like a veil. A true Patriot feels strongly for their country and are willing to fight to preserve whatever they believe that country stands for. That means that Patriots can and should disagree with bad leadership who's actions and policies are taking their country a step backward. A Nationalist will just be led like sheep, while calling the next person "Un-Patriotic" for not doing the same.
2) How can you be proud of something just because you were randomly born there?
I absolutely can, I love New York. I was Born and raised here (Then the south; Now I'm back) I love almost everything about it with the exception of the expensive everything, the bad roads and equally bad parking. I love our energy, the diversity, the no-nonsense attitudes, the hustle and drive that we all seem to share out here. Because i was born here, I feel like a natural part of that.
3) How can you be proud of the actions of your country where you had little or almost no contribution to the same (applicable to the majority of the citizens)?
I don't think there's any objective way to look at that. I will say that this pride is synonymous to the pride felt by sports fans. You didn't play, You didn't coach, you didn't even show up to the actual game to cheer the team on, but you definitely saw your countrymen on that TV. You saw your people achieve a victory in the name for your people and your home. I guess that's a good way to look at it.
4) Should countries and borders exist to serve any other purpose than ease of administration and/or for government policies?
Countries and borders are like preservative jars. They preserve clans of people. They preserve culture, customs and languages. without these barriers, we're one people. cultures would mix, change and evolve. That scares people.
Edited for grammatical errors.
Nationalism is undesirable, but patriotism in certain contexts can be very good. Whether or not it in actual fact *is* good depends on the person you are asking, of course, as well as what country. I would consider socialist patriotism a virtue, that is, internationalist class based patriotism that nevertheless is not hostile to the notion of a nation. However, I suspect that many here would find that form of patriotism disagreeable on the basis of politics, and might embrace some form of liberal patriotism instead.
I'd say that in my answer to 1) is that nationalism in all contexts is bad, patriotism isn't always bad, and socialist patriotism is actually good.
My response to 2) would be that patriotism is earned, not something born into. As you pour your effort into the collective whole, partake in the nation's struggles, programs and campaigns, alongside your comrades, you earn a sense of social pride. Nationalists and vainglorious patriots alike assume that by simply being born into country X makes them demigods. This is not so, and this would be meaningless conception of patriotism. I suppose this also kinda answers 3) so lets skip that one.
And lastly to address 4) yes, as a matter of speaking, they do. There are cultural and linguistic factors which are in my opinion significant historically emergent phenomena which for their part also warrant defined nations. Race has nothing to do with it, but language and culture does. Socialisation is a huge part of any society, obviously.
"Race has nothing to do with it, but language and culture does."
I have to disagree here.
In the present context this does not apply anymore. Yes, few nations might have been created, for example, based on a language but there are also countries with many languages. Similarly, there are nations with many cultures, traditions, etc.
And if this is the case, other than ease of administration, I do not see why we would need borders.
Why limit our progress based on random borders when all humanity deserves it (generally speaking)?
Rickdiculous,
"And if this is the case, other than ease of administration, I do not see why we would need borders."
Can you list your top three choices of the places around the world where you would move to if you could?
Su*burps*re..
In the present context any country with the following (not listed in any order):
1) Warm/Sunny weather for most time of the year (20-35 degree celsius)
2) Spicy food
3) English speaking crowd (to communicate well) for now. Learning a few others presently.
4) Democracy (not a big fan of it, but this is the best we got).
Haven't thought much of it, but any country with the above seems fine to move (if I have to). Surprisingly, where I live now doesn't have all the listed stuff, but still works out fine.