Okay so it's a hobby of mine to research about religions and debunk their claims. I just happened to stumble upon an islamic miracle claim by muslims that muhammad could become invisible in the eyes of infidels by reading this verse of quran.
"(Sahih International): And when you recite the Qur'an, We put between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter a concealed partition."
So basically, my question is about muhammad becoming invisible. He's once sitting with his companion Abu Bakr when the wife of a popular anti-Islamic personality who also happens to be muhammad's uncle (Abu Lahab) comes. This story happens AFTER Surah Lahab is revealed which is basically a surah full of curses and threats for the anti-Islamic couple (Abu Lahab and his wife)
(Ibn Abbas narrates this)
Abu Bakr said to him, ‘Why do you not move out of her way so that she will not harm you, O Messenger of Allah?’
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘There will be a barrier between me and her.’
She came and stood over Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and said, ‘O Abu Bakr, your companion has lampooned us.’
Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) said, ‘No, by the Lord of this House, he has not spoken poetry and he does not utter verse.’ She said, ‘You are speaking the truth.’
When she went away, Abu Bakr ((may Allah be pleased with him) said, ‘Did she not see you?’ He said, ‘No, an angel was covering me until she went away.’” [ al-Bazzaar in al-Musnad].
The full version of this can be seen here: https://islamqa.info/en/6711
This story is mentioned in only one version throughout the internet and the person who recorded this is Al-Bazzaar in his book Al-Musnad. It is NOT found ANYWHERE ELSE. It is written on islamic forums that this hadith/saying/story is true because the chain of narrators is good.
What is your explanation of this 'INVISIBILITY' miracle? Or just like other miracles this is also a fabricated and decorated story?
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I don't know much about Islam and its apologetics. Could you explain what they mean by that (if you know)?
It means that the people who narrated this (because many people narrate the sayings and these things pass from one person to another person) did not have any memory problems or trust issues. "Sahih" is a classification of sayings and it is the 2nd most trusted classification. The first one is called "Authentic".
So it is an oral history. People make shit up, no other explanation is necessary.
Oh I forgot to say: thanks for the explanation Seek3R; and welcome to AR!
Religions were/are with chipher, and because the sciences/Campus Marcius was criminally re-engineered. The sequence nature of the Quran begins with an organized crime conversation obfuscated by opinions let heard, and worse. https://www.ancientgamingsystem.com Youtuber Anthony Wall teaches about invisible, but about still discernible value/value nature relationship to the identity of existence/space, and as the Trinity's shared identity is about, and as Yin Yang's, about Allah: https://youtu.be/FLfVxqG3qVE at https://www.youtube.com/user/romulusWall.
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And that one video I saw of this anthony wall, he was drunk.
rmfr
Re: "Religions were/are with chipher, and because the sciences/Campus Marcius was criminally....etc., etc., etc...."
OOOOooowwwww....!!! I think I just dislocated my brain trying to read that!...*both hands to sides of head*.....Mommy!
The Trinity is about invisible value/value nature: https://youtu.be/u0EE6EHgxvw at https://www.youtube.com/user/romulusWall.
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Oh great, three times the fruitcake...
rmfr
P.S. - No I did not watch...
"What is your explanation of this 'INVISIBILITY' miracle? Or just like other miracles this is also a fabricated and decorated story?"
The second one, unless someone can demonstrate sufficient objective evidence for the claim.
It is easy to mock religions for their idiotic superstitions but...oh, I have nothing more to add.
Sapporo, I'm sorry I didn't get what you mean (English is not my first language).
Brilliant, made me laugh out loud, and I just spilled my drink.
lol why. I just didn't understand what he meant. I couldn't understand his position i.e. was he against or for the argument.
@Seek3R
:p I'm for your argument.
I was just saying that I can't actually think of a defence of holding such superstitious beliefs.
Invisiblity? Total fucking bullshit. No reasonable person would think otherwise.
Seek3R,
"She came and stood over Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and said, ‘O Abu Bakr, your companion has lampooned us.’"
We should know that this hadith is pure bull shit because the word "lampooned" wasn't created until around 1640 =
https://www.etymonline.com/word/lampoon. So the person who made it up changed the meaning of the original version, if there was one, when he wrote his version of what it said.
Diotrephes, you must remember all the hadith were originally Arabic. It's not about the word "lampoon" because these are translations. Here are other versions:
She said to Abu Bakr: "Your companion is saying poetry against me,"
She then said, ‘O Abu Bakr! Verily, I have been informed that your friend is making defamatory poetry about me.’
So what if he changed the meaning. Its a translation. You don't understand Arabic that's the problem.Yes Prophet Muhammed saw got invisible its a miracle, you don't believe it who cares.
Okay, it seems some people need a Hadith lesson.
The Quran is is unintelligible without the Hadith. The Quran mentions 92 times that a Muslim is to live like Muhammad, but one cannot live like Muhammad unless they treat the Hadith as scripture. In fact, a Muslim cannot practice even a single one of the five pillars of Islam without the Hadith (sayings of Muhammad) and the Sira (biography of Muhammad).
So in Islam, the Hadith is considered scripture as important as Quran, BUT Islamic scholars have divided the Hadith collections by their reliability. The most authoritative Hadith are the Sahih Hadith: Sahih Muslim and Sahih Al-Bukhari. These Hadith are considered strong and authentic. Below that we have Abu Dawud, or the Hasan Hadith, which is still considered accurate, but more ambiguous and thus not as strong.
Below that we have the Da`if Hadith, which are weak hadith that are considered to have some inaccurate stories in them, so these are generally treated with suspicion.
The last type of hadith are Mawdoo: Hadith which are considered to be forgeries.
The Hadith about Muhammad being invisible is not found in any of reliable hadith collections, so most Muslims would consider it to be a forgery.
Glacier, perhaps from the Islamic point of view those stories may be forgeries or authentic. The hadith I've mentioned is considered to be sahih because of the chain of narrators. However, to criticize something of a religion by using other teachings of that religion is rather foolish.
I'm not sure if you've heard of other bullshit stories e.g. there's a tree which cried when the prophet died, there's a tree which used to talk, there's a tree which used to bow down to muhammad, whenever muhammad would sit under a tree, it would shade him.
These are all authentic ahadith. The point is, none of those are backed up by a neutral evidence or something. Therefore, I do not really give a fuck about Islam's hadith classifications because these can be manipulated. How can you ever know if a false story is in sahih bukhari? And mind you, sahih bukhari and sahih muslim has a lot of intolerable crap in it.
Let's forget Islam. How about Jesus? Moses? The splitting of the ocean and the crucifixion of Jesus? The birth of him without a father? You know the whole Christianity is formed on the basis of Jesus but do we have any evidence of his miracles or how he was actually born? We sure do in scriptures and biblical sources but then once again, using a religion to defend or criticize something of that very religion is probably the most stupidest thing (by no means am I pointing to anyone or you, just a general opinion of mine).
So, my friend, if Christianity can be formed upon evident sources and proofs FROM CHRISTIANITY ITSELF, then I think Islam can also manipulate its hadith classification bullshit to suit their needs.
As Carl Sagan stated, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
Muhammad has also flew on a winged horse to the heavens. Where is the proof? Islamic hadith (sahih bukhari, sahih muslim, abu dawud, YOU NAME IT!)
Muhammad has also split the moon in half. Where is the proof? Islamic hadith (EVERY AUTHENTIC BOOK)
But what if I ask for a proof which is not bound to Islam? Did any Christian, Jew or Hindu in the entire world witness the splitting of moon? No. Has the moon ever been scientifically split? No.
As much funny and delusional as it may seem, you will also find some notable Arabs like Abu Jahl SUPPOSEDLY asking other tribes after moon splitting that did you also witness this magic? They say YES! WE DID! But unfortunately, where is this claim found that Abu Jahl or some other notable Arab asked such a question? You guessed it my friend, Islamic hadith and probably Islamic history too.
So, what's the conclusion of my big reply?
I consider Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be on an equal level of falsehood as I consider every prophet of Islam and every other religion and their God. And, as for this story, I'm going to say just few things.
1) Neutral evidence of that story outside of Islam is not found, hence it's a bullshit oral history just like our friend Nyarlathotep said.
2) The story may be decorated to impress the Muslims of that time, hence we don't know what actually happened as our friend Sheldon said
But what's the common point in these two arguments that I've presented? There is no NEUTRAL proof of his invisibility and I'm glad to know that many people do not refer to Islam as a source of clarifying their questions which are actually trying to debunk the claim of Islam itself. I mean, that'd be contradictory.
Quran is a revelation from Allah swt to Prophet Muhammad saw through Jibrel As. Hadees is know as what prophet saw said and his companions. We must have to use Hadeeth for understanding complete Quran.
I get what you're saying. I'm just not smart enough to analyze texts as an outsider. When I analyze texts, I view them from the viewpoint of believers unless I state otherwise. I'm very familiar with the Islamic stories, and take them as if I'm a Muhammadan when discussing Islam. I don't discount miracles at all because they are unfalsifiable. I simply view the the scriptures as if I'm a believer. When I read that the sun sets in a muddy pool, or that whoever cums first determines the sex of the child being conceived, I ask how this can be squared away with our understanding of the world today.
"I don't discount miracles at all because they are unfalsifiable"
This is surprising. In other words, you are saying that miracles cannot be proven false? Or maybe you are right. None of the miracles can be proven wrong, how can they ever be?
When we look at the leftover remnants of the Islamic history and analyze it with an objective approach, we can see a whole list of bitter truths. Did you ever imagine why Islam is the ONLY religion with the most BIGGEST AND yet ABSURD claims and miracles? And, why we don't have any proof or historical evidence of these?
I gotta praise Muhammad and his scribes for one thing though. They had no idea what part of the history or Muhammad's sayings should have been written for the future to be seen and what should've been concealed. I highly doubt any authentic Arabian history exists today which can tell us the truth. Any history book of the Arabs that can dare to convey the truth, that can dare to say that the Ethiopian king Abraha never attacked Mecca because if he did, Arabs would be butchered by him and yet we have Muslims and a WHOLE CHAPTER OF QURAN (Surah Fil) that talks about this. We have Arabian history and commentary books that conclude that Abraha was the one who attacked Mecca in order to raze Kabah to the ground BUT UNFORTUNATELY, the man was killed by a flock of magical birds that dropped pebbles on the army. How amazing and mystical.
However, mind you, there are some sensible yet still imbecile Muslims and scholars who try to think semi-broadly and try to conclude a different meaning from the absurd Surah Fil and the Year of the Elephant. But these people are still foolish because they try to debunk an Islamic claim, or I should say, try to extract a different meaning out of it because the original is simply retarded. And, we all know that all Islamic claims are certainly retarded.
So, what's the point of mentioning all this? I just got surprised when you wrote that you don't discount miracles at all because they are unfalsifiable. The question arises, can we EVER find ANY authentic and daring Arabian historical book that dares to give the truth without topping it up with cherries and cream? I'd say it's as hard as impossible.
If you look back at some of the most authentic and recognizable biographies (that also happen to contain the pre-Islamic history and the post-Islamic history i.e. after the death of Muhammad), you can see some parts that are very bitter and reveal the AUTHENTIC HISTORY OF THE ARABS. Because, after all, no matter how hard you try, you cannot conceal everything. There will always be some mistakes left by the evil warlords of the old times.
Let me also clarify one thing here. Arab history and Arabian history books are written none other than by the people we already know such as Ibn Hisham and Ibn Ishaq. These are the people who wrote the Arab history and perhaps were the only trusted historians of the later centuries. In fact, Ibn Ishaq's history of the Arabs and Life of the Prophet is all lost, as far as I know. It was rewritten by Ibn Hisham. So where the hell can we ever find any proof? Unfortunately, we can't. Even if we did have Ibn Ishaq's original work, we still can't forget that he was an Arab Muslim as well so expecting him to write the actual truth would be equal to fooling yourself.
We cannot because the dear Prophet Muhammad left none alive. No enemy of Islam was left alive. The enemies of Islam, the people who witnessed every single thing, the people who challenged Islam, the people who were slightly skeptical and capable of thinking even though they were also pagans and devout believers in all kinds of Gods.
Here's an example of how Muhammad ordered the killing of a female poet who happened to be the mother of five children. What was her crime? She disbelieved in Muhammad and hated him for all his absurd claims.
"When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her"
"He crept into her room in the dark of night where she was sleeping with her five children, with her infant child close to her bosom. Umayr removed the child from Asma's breast and killed her"
This is why, it's difficult to debunk some of the claims of Islam. Even the pre-Islamic Arabian history has been altered by Islam and given a new meaning. Take for example the Ethiopian king Abraha's story. His story takes place before Muhammad was even born but then as soon as he became a prophet, there comes the hadith, quranic chapters and other bullshits to Islamicize the history.
So the man who killed females for producing poems against him, the man who gave no shit that he's killing a mother who has children, the man who butchered every single witness, every single skeptic who existed? The man who killed every single person or otherwise brainwashed them with the wicked Islamic teachings? He left no one.
There was a Jewish leader and a poet in Medina. He was a JEW, he had nothing to do with Christianity or the pagan idols of the Arabs at that time. If people like him were able to live and pass on the knowledge to their offspring or write books or something that were not destroyed or wasted, we would perhaps have a less dominating version of the Islam today because then evidence would be available.
Do you know what happened to this Jewish leader? By the way, his name was Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf.
"Muhammad made it clear to his companions that he wished Ka'b killed, saying, "Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama volunteered and was aided by several others, including Abu Na'ila (Silkan bin Salama, Ka‘b’s foster brother). Ibn Maslamah was troubled that this assassination would involve lying to Ka'b, but Muhammad gave him a dispensation to do so.
They took Ka'b out for a walk late at night and killed him."
These stories are from authentic history books of Arabs. We don't have anything except for what is left. And what is left is all the Islamic version of the Arab history so we have technically nothing left except for the little remnants and small sentences that the dear Muslims left for us to read. However, they are enough to let us know the reality of Islam. Fortunately, Islam's claims and miracles are so stupid that merely any logical person would be able to debunk most of them and some others with research.
The truth of the Ethiopion king Abraha is only found in Ethiopian history and stories of what Abraha actually did. So if a pre-Islamic historical story can be edited, modified and exaggerated by a factor of hundred, then we really have no hope for anything that happened after Islam.
I also believe this is one of the reasons why infidels or non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca. If any archaeologist or scientist was to go there and analyze the Arab history, because after all those people cannot hide the traces left on the surface of the earth by their so called "prophet" and his companions.
So, what conclusion am I trying to make? Islamic miracles are not unfalsifiable, they can be very well debunked and their asses can be kicked hard if one is rational and observant enough to make sense of the Arab history. But you might need a magnifying glass to link the parts together and get the whole picture of the truth with the pixels you've collected from hundreds of books. Yes, hundreds of books.
We must NEVER FORGET that the WHOLE ARAB HISTORY has been ISLAMICIZED (converted to an ISLAMIC VERSION). This cannot be undone and this my friend is exactly the reason why it's funny for me when religious people use religious history to criticize or support their religious claims. But thankfully Muhammad was an illiterate. We should thank Allah for that, if you know what I mean :)
Interesting stuff on Arab history.
I've never seen the utility of debunking miracles that supposedly happened to a religious figure thousands of years ago from a naturalistic point of view. Of course for atheists they are hearsay turned into legend. And the religious can always return to "it's magic" made by God. No progress made. Miracles in the present are another matter, because those claims can be examined naturalistically.
Finding earlier versions of the text that contradict the story would be the only way, I think, to convince the believing of the invented nature of the claimed miracle. But as you put it yourself, such analysis would seem harder in the islamic context than in the christian one.
What I mean is that you cannot assume a naturalistic world with someone who is a super naturalist. When they say Muhammad flew on a winged horse, and thus Jerusalem is a holy site in Islam, I give them it. I give everyone their assumptions, and instead just focus on apparent contradictions with facts.
Exactly!
Muhammad becomes INVISIBLE?!?!
Of course he did, he was a murdering, thieving, child molester. He had to rabbit.
rmfr
One of the things I've seen again and again over the years from Christian religious fundamentalists is the idea that because it says in the Bible that people witnessed something that somehow this is 'eye witness testimony' and that we must then explain the miracle that was witnessed by 'all these people'.
I remind them that it the Koran also says that various miracles took place and were witnessed by a lot of people and ask them when they will be buying their prayer rug.
That my friend is the very reason why I emphasize on the fact that no evidence which is from the religion itself can be used to criticize or defend its claims. We must use neutral evidence because religions and its followers will ALWAYS try to defend themselves so there's no point.
Besides, we must not forget how fucked up the history has become. People have changed myths into religious teachings and that is something very sad.