Hello AR,
I'm interested to hear everyone's, atheist and theist, opinions on the value of secular morality compared to Theistic morality. From the atheistic side, I mostly encounter examples about slavery, rape, and genocide stories in the Bible, but I am hoping to hear arguments from a wider perspective.
Also, if you have any links to debates on the topic, I would be very interested in those as well. Sam Harris is a particular favorite of mine, but I also enjoy a good Matt Dillahunty debate. Matt D vs. Matt Slick was enjoyable. I found Matt Slick to be intelligent and coherent in his arguments, though I disagreed with his position. However, Matt D. vs. Sye was (in my opinion, of course), embarrassing for Sye. If you want to hear a debate where one side argues 100% ad hominem by taking his opponent's quotes out of context and repeating "He's a brain in a vat" over and over, then this debate is for you!
Here are some questions to get started, if you are interested in responding:
How do you define morality?
Where does your morality come from? God? A holy book? Cheese? Empathy?
Which is superior, secular or theistic morality, and why?
When confronted with an opponent, how would you argue for your position on this matter?
Thank you all for any responses!
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
@OP by Skeptical Kevin
I would rely on the dictionary definitions to avoid confusion.
Out of that list, Empathy. I would also add: "need and expectation." I want to feel safe and free to do things, a basic: "treat others how you would like to be treated."
As an atheist/secular person obviously I am going to favor Secular. To me it is far better grounded and based in reality then the theistic morality (which to me is essentially some old long dead person's opinionated and likely self serving to them morality rules that they wrote and made up.)
Perhaps being a bit glib, but, I would approach a theistic morality person as: my position on it is based on the here and now, while most theistic morality is usually ultimately based on the afterlife. If I were to adopt the theistic morality, what is to stop me from robbing you blind (if I could get away with it in the current life) and only have to pay my "dues" in the afterlife? Since afterlife is unevidenced to me, and I do not believe it exists, it pretty much becomes, why should I respect theistic morality at all? I am a nice person and do not have the need to steal from others, but, if I was a desperate person, and someone only held me to theistic morality, I would not hesitate to steal from them to feed myself and my family, especially if they could afford the loss.
To me theistic morality only works with the heaven/hell concept. W/o that, it is completely baseless and worthless. Anyone could do anything to anyone w/o repercussions. If they want to include rule of law, then I tell them it is no longer theistic based morality. People are punishing people for morality issues not "god."
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
All morality is secular. All religions pick and choose their moral dictates from their holy books. If you have listened to Matt D and Sam H, you have heard the best of the arguments for secular morality in my opinion.
A Holy Dictate is not moral. I can teach my damn dog not to climb up on the couch. Doing something because your church or religion tells you to do it is not moral. If I tell my child, "Don't hit your brother and I will give you a cookie." The child is not engaged in an act of morality by not hitting his brother. He is seeking a reward. No Christian can be offered the glory of heaven for good behavior and then claim to be engaged in an act of morality. They are simply engaged in greed and goal seeking.
Similarly, if I tell my child, "If you hit your brother again, I will beat you black and blue." The child is not engaged in morality when he does not hit his brother. He is engaged in fear and preservation of the self. This is not a moral decision. This is a decision to avoid pain and punishment. No Christian is capable of a moral act with the threat of Hell hanging over their head. Every Christian knows that they are not worthy and God will spew out of his mouth the lukewarm Christians. Following the Dictates of a God who rewards and punishes can in no possible way be moral. It requires no moral decision to avoid pain and punishment or to seek pleasure.
@ Cog
Jeez mate, you are on a roll!
I agree
Give a chimp a typewriter and you never know what's going to happen.
At least OUR chimp knows what to do with it...
Kudos, Dude.
rmfr
I am new to atheist republic. There are so many posts to so many subjects how do all the posts get heard or responded to. How can this post even get read. I am just saying....
@fiat
I read it...
Yes, when you are new, everything is lit up. Once you enter a thread and then exit is will no longer be lit up and will not light up again until a new post is made. All you do is keep up with the new posts as they roll in. It's not difficult.
@Cog
Ummm... You do realize, I hope, that the "new" Fiat is actually not new in any way. He is really our ol' buddy Kenny. Cyber called him out in another thread. Just a heads up.
Yea, I saw that. Well..... respect when respect is due ... and when it isn't.....there is always "Cog's Shovel."
Has anyone here watched "The Umbrella Academy" on Netflix?
Pogo the chimp, the calm, logical voice of reason that is clearly smarter than the 1-5 superheroes combined.
Beyond Cognostic's avatar picture, I now associate Cognostic with Pogo. (I have not finished the series yet, so dont know if that changes, and no spoilers!)
Logic: "Has anyone here watched "The Umbrella Academy" on Netflix?"
Never heard of it until just now. Then again, my TV almost never comes on unless I find a movie I like on the streamers I do get. Then I will "flick" the movie over to the TV and watch. Otherwise, TV holds almost no interest for me anymore.
rmfr
Re " Umbrella Academy"
My wife is an avid binger of that series on Netflix.
Meh the old superhero school schtick. However it is mostly well acted and the scripts don't completely suck. I have tolerated it for a few glimpses...but its an Orang Utan isn't it?
You might be right about that, I think it looks more chimp than orangutan, (the ears and darker fur) but certainly pogo also does not perfectly match a chimp eithir. Could be some sort of weird comic style mix.
Like others, I would go by the dictionary definition, which in this case is, "1Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour."
Morality has and still evolves via society.
Well my concept of morality has a preponderance of evidence to support it, so...
You don't really have to, once a person tries to invoke the supernatural to defend their position, they literally having nothing substantial to say.
It become a cause well it must be this way because...
Where as morality forming through societal structures is self evident!
Look how we change our morals these days compared to say 200 years ago?
Women have far more rights now, people of different ethnicities on the whole get along, homosexuality isn't frowned upon or even punished to the degree it was centuries ago.
We always evolve in society and our morals evolve accordingly.
I had a discussion with another walk-about JW about this. All I had to do to confuse the two was ask: "How can you say your behavior is moral when you only do good to prevent the threat of eternal torment and torture and damnation of your God's Hell?" Both again just had that "deer in the head lamps" HUH? look. I just walked away.
rmfr
I agree with the reward/punishment argument, if a person does something because they want the reward or fear the punishment, it isn't truly moral. I would also add that if a person blindly obeys an authority figure, those actions couldn't be considered moral either. If I refuse to litter because either A) I'm afraid of punishment or B) The law says not to, that's not moral. If I refuse to litter because I have an understanding that polluting or environment is wrong and even more so when it is done to avoid the small inconvenience of throwing something away properly, that could be considered moral.
Thanks for the responses so far :)
Now you have reached the Euthyphro dilemma. Is moral behavior moral in itself, independent of God's commands or is that which is moral. moral because it is commanded by God?
In the one case. when god commands to own slaves and kill he is being moral..
In the other, God is not needed for morality. Morality is objective and exists independent of God.
Again, why does everybody keep making this whole morality thing so difficult?... *shaking head in bewildered manner*.... When faced with a difficult moral decision, just flip a coin like I do. Shit ain't that complicated.... *wink*...
But Tin - Flipping a coin does not take into account the complexity of decisions making. You are a machine and incapable of the vastness of human response. Your "coin flip" is just "Automation bias" A dependence on automation. And it displays a distinct Empathy gap. You are not taking into account how difficult a decision is for a human being. Humans must deal with......
Ambiguity effect - avoiding outcomes that are unknown.
Anchoring - Using that first piece of information as gospel.
Anthropocentric thinking - Using human reasoning for less familiar biological phenomena.
Anthropomorphism - Ascribing human emotion to abstract content, imbuing situations with human meaning.
Attentional bias - The same thought keeps popping up so you choose it.
Availability heuristic - The tendency to overestimate the likelihood of events with greater "availability" in memory, which can be influenced by how recent the memories are or how unusual or emotionally charged they may be
Availability cascade - A self-reinforcing process in which a collective belief gains more and more plausibility through its increasing repetition in public discourse (or "repeat something long enough and it will become true")
Bandwagon effect - The tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same. Related to group-think and herd behavior.
Base rate fallacy - The tendency to ignore base rate information (generic, general information) and focus on specific information (information only pertaining to a certain case)
Ben Franklin effect - Are you making the decision you are making just to please another or fit in socially?
Berkson's paradox - The tendency to misinterpret statistical experiments involving conditional probabilities.
Bias blind spot - Seeing oneself as less biased than other people
Confirmation bias - The tendency to search for, interpret, focus on and remember information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.
Conjunction fallacies - The tendency to assume that specific conditions are more probable than general ones.
Courtesy bias - (See Ben Franklin)
Declinism - The predisposition to view the past favorably (rosy retrospection) and future negatively. Tendency to do things the way we have always done them.
Duration neglect - The neglect of the duration of an episode in determining its value.
Focusing effect - The tendency to place too much importance on one aspect of an event.
Framing effect - Drawing different conclusions from the same information, depending on how that information is presented.
IKEA effect - The tendency for people to place a disproportionately high value on objects that they partially assembled themselves, such as furniture from IKEA, regardless of the quality of the end result.
Illicit transference - Occurs when a term in the distributive (referring to every member of a class) and collective (referring to the class itself as a whole) sense are treated as equivalent. The two variants of this fallacy are the fallacy of composition and the fallacy of division.
AND WE ARE ONLY UP TO THE LETTER "I'. There are so many more considerations. You heartless mechanical bastard. If making a decision was so frigging easy I would not have spent the night standing naked in the middle of my bedroom wondering if I should go to the bathroom and shower before going to bed, get something to eat, take off my shoes, or just wait until morning.
@Cog Re: "If making a decision was so frigging easy I would not have spent the night standing naked in the middle of my bedroom wondering if I should go to the bathroom and shower before going to bed, get something to eat, take off my shoes, or just wait until morning."
...*thinking to self*... Hmmm... Would it be morally okay for me to add a few drops of "liquid farts" to Cog's shampoo bottle and then sprinkle a bunch of itching powder in his bed sheets?... *flipping coin*.... *catching coin*... *placing coin on back of wrist*... *looking at coin*... Heads! Dammit! And I was so looking forward to videoing his reactions... *placing coin back in pocket*...
See how easy that was, Cog?
Jokes on you, there are already liquid farts in my shampoo and itching powder in my bed sheets, how in the fuck do you think I got this bright shinning friendly personality!!!
@Cog Re: "Jokes on you, there are already liquid farts in my shampoo and itching powder in my bed sheets..."
Well, hell... That explains a lot. And all this time I thought it was Old Man's feet I've been smelling around here. Just didn't want to say anything to hurt his feelings. (In all fairness, though, the coin toss on that decision also came up heads.)
I rape, murder, torture, pillage, steal, lie, and abuse animals with a fork, when I feel like it...I just have never felt like it ever. A cardinal rapes children...a cardinal sin...excuse the pun, but...theists have reason to contravign true moral behavior...where atheists innate morality works well. I have always said, you have to be religious to be immoral. Unfortunately, that keeps ringing true. Still no action taken about the Australian cardinal child rapist, by the pope...I wonder if the pope likes sucking off children too?
DoG: I agree with everything but the "abuse animals with a fork" part. I had steak for dinner.
Ok then...how about about I change the line to...abuse animals with cheap BBQ sauce? :)
This is why I argue that morality has clearly evolved via society/civilisation.
Why do we not all kill? Because society dictates it is wrong and we have evolved over time to become accustomed to this train of thought.
It benefits the group to treat each other better in order to have cohesion.
You could argue that we could, as a species all become vegan overtime.
Providing that it is not forced and the going down that path is positively reinforced.
Although I won't, like cog I had steak lol
Peppercorn sauce.......nom
Its genetic...everything basically is. The fact that religion co-optes it for its own gain, is unto itself, immoral.
I don't agree that society dictates it. It is not trends that are enforced by evolution, but the ability to survive...any mutation that promotes survival of the species, survives...not whether peoples opinion to become vegan, is a better choice.
There's a wealth of scientific literature pointing to the biological and evolutionary basis for our capacity for ethical thought, and action thereupon. Be preapred for a long read ahead.
By now, everyone here has almost certainly seen this video clip, featuring Frans de Waal and his work on primate behaviour, but it's instructive to look at the papers, starting with:
Monkeys Reject Unequal Pay by Sarah F. Brosnan & Frans B. M. de Waal, Nature, 425: 297-299 (18th September 2003) [Abstract available here]
Another paper of interest is this one:
Primates—A Natural Heritage Of Conflict Resolution by Frans B. M. de Waal, Science, 289: 586-590 (28th July 2000) [Full paper downloadable from here]
Indeed, the opening paragraph is highly informative on its own ...
de Waal moves on to comment thus:
Meanwhile, it's apposite here to cover another paper, namely:
Empathy: Its Ultimate And Proximate Bases by Stephanie D. Preston and Frans de Waal, Behavioural and Brain Sciences, 25: 1-20 (2001). The full paper is downloadable from here. Here is the abstract, with appropriate sections highlighted in bold:
So already we have a paper that discusses evolutionary explanations for altruism. Let's take a further look at this, shall we?
So we have hard experimental evidence that rhesus macaques will suffer privation rather than see fellow members of their species endure pain. Which means that these organisms possess empathy for each other that is directly observable, and reflects the sort of empathic responses that used to be thought to be exclusive to humans.
Continuing, the authors write:
So the notion that empathy, and as a consequence, altruistic behaviour, is a natural consequence of evolutionary processes can be traced in the scientific literature all the way back to Darwin. Which means that an evolutionary explanation for altruism is anything but a recent development.
The paper concludes with:
So, the authors conclude that in order to act in an altruistic manner, what is needed is:
[1] An ability to relate perceptions to actions within an internal mental model of some sort (and the model in question doesn't have to be anywhere near as intricate as ours);
[2] An ability to relate responses of other organisms of the same species to a given external action, to our own likely actions to those same external actions (in short, "putting oneself in the shoes of the other");
[3] An ability to make judgements, with respect to future actions to take, that maximise shared benefit and minimise shared suffering.
Since the papers on the ventromedial pre-frontal cortex and human brain development mediated by ASPM cover the development of the relevant hardware required for this, it should not be surprising to conclude, as a result of observing empirically that rhesus macaques possess the necessary hardware to act in this manner, that our own hardware supporting this behaviour arises from the familiar process of common descent with modification, and indeed, the ASPM papers provide evidence with respect to the modifications that took place in our lineage. (I may cover these papers in more detail at some other point in time).
So, apparently, evolutionary processes equipped us not only with the ability to behave altruistically, particularly toward fellow members of a given social group, but also equipped us with mechanisms for conflict resolution and reconciliation. Interesting, is it not?
But there's more. Two more papers of interest are:
Mechanisms Of Social Reciprocity In Three Primate Species: Symmetrical Relationship Characteristics Or Cognition? by Frans B. M. de Waal and Lesleigh M. Luttrell, Ethology and Sociobiology, 9(2-4): 101-118 (1988)
Reconciliation And Consolation Among Chimpanzees by Frans B. M. de Waal and Angeline van Roosmalen, Behavioural Ecology & Sociobiology, 5(1): 55-66 (March 1979)
The first of the above papers opens as follows:
This was a paper that performed a quantitative analysis of the requisite behaviours back in 1979. And which, moreover, contains what appears to be a direct empirical observation of chimpanzees acting socially to mitigate the results of violent conflict, and seek to minimise the occurrences thereof amongst their number. Which once again demonstrates that we are not unique in this vein by any stretch of the imagination.
The second of the above papers opens as follows:
Before moving on to the other papers of interest I can bring here, I'll introduce some pertinent comments. First of all, the only evidence we have, of creatures producing an abstract concept of ethics, and devising conceptual frameworks within an intellectual field of endeavour devoted to these, centres upon humans. We have evidence that humans have written treatises on ethics. We have NO evidence that any other entity has produced treatises on ethics or formulated ethical ideas on an abstract basis, though as will be seen, we have an increasingly large body of evidence for reciprocal behaviour and other behaviours more usually thought of by the naive as unique to humans. Any statement that an invisible magic man is responsible for our ethical constructs is mere blind assertion, not least because the postulate that this invisible magic man even exists is a blind assertion. As a direct consequence, the observational evidence supports the notion that morality is a human invention, which I shall present in more detail shortly.
One of the more interesting developments from neuroscience supernaturalists in particular have apparently missed out on is this. Humans (and indeed other primates) possess a part of the brain known as the ventromedial pre-frontal cortex. It has been demonstrated experimentally, courtesy of cases of brain injury to this region, that this part of the brain is the very part of the brain responsible for our capacity to engage in ethical decision making. When that part of the brain is damaged, ethical decision making is manifestly impaired. In other words, we have an organic and biological basis for our capacity to act as moral beings. An interesting and relevant paper is this one:
Characterisation Of Empathy Deficits Following Prefrontal Brain Damage: The Role Of The Right Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex by S.G. Shamay-Tsoory, R. Tomer B.D. Berger and J. Aharon-Peretz, Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 15: 324-337 (2003)
Another apposite paper is this one:
The Role Of The Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex In Abstract State-Based Inference During Decision Making In Humans by Alan N. Hampton, Peter Bossaerts and John. P. O'Doherty, The Journal of Neuroscience, 26(32): 8360-8367 (9th August 2006) [full paper downloadable from here]
Another apposite paper is this one:
Characterisation Of The Decision-Making Deficit Of Patients With Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex Lesions by Antione Bechara, Daniel Tranel and Hanna Damasio, Brain, 123: 2189-2202 (2000)
and also this one:
Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex Activation Is Critical For Preference Judgements by Martin P. Paulus and Lawrence R. Frank, NeuroReport, 14(10): 1311-1315 (28th March 2003)
However, the one I'd really like to concentrate upon from here on is this one:
Impairment Of Social And Moral Behaviour Related To Early Damage In Human Prefrontal Cortex by Steven W. Anderson, Antoine Bechara, Hanna Damasio, Daniel Tranel and Antonio R. Damasio, Nature Neuroscience, 2(11): 1032-1037 (November 1999)
Here's what this paper says:
Indeed, further research in this area has established an interesting fact: if the pre-frontal cortex is damaged in childhood, before a child has begun to learn basic ethical precepts, that child becomes a sociopathic adult, incapable of responding to any impulse other than instant gratification of wants and desires, regardless of the cost to that person or others affected by said behaviour. If the damage occurs in adulthood, the behaviour is still antisocial, but is accompanied by feelings of guilt because ethical precepts have already been learned, and knowledge of this affects the individual adversely in terms of guilt feelings after the fact. Plus, when subjected to testing in a clinical environment, adults with pre-frontal cortex damage can give appropriate responses to questions about appropriate behaviour in social settings, but are unable to act upon this knowledge, and continue to be driven by immediate gratification, even when they know that this behaviour is self-defeating. The pre-frontal cortex has also been implicated as the origin of fear memories in normal individuals, as of 2006 (courtesy of researchers at the University of Toronto). Modern data with respect to this relies upon functional MRI scanning, which can track brain activity in real time, and those brain imaging systems have found a startling correlation between reduced activity, reduced volume and reduced interconnections with other brain subsystems, and individuals falling into the following categories:
[1] Sufferers of unipolar depression;
[2] Persons subjected to repeated high-intensity stress (e.g., battlefield shock cases);
[3] Incarcerated criminals;
[4] Diagnosed sociopaths;
[5] Drug addicts;
[6] Suicide victims (survivors of suicide attempts have been imaged via fMRI: successful suicide victims have had the pre-frontal cortex directly measured by dissection).
Therefore there is a biological basis for ethical behaviour in humans, and work on the great apes is being performed in anticipation of finding corollary brain activity related to socialisation and the establishment of behavioural 'norms' within great ape social groupings, a sample of which I've already covered above.
Additionally, I have since found that pre-frontal cortex damage is implicated in schizophrenia, courtesy of this page from the Society for Neuroscience. Again, it refers to brain imaging studies, this time in humans and other primates.
A letter to Nature is also apposite here (link), viz:
Indeed the pre-frontal cortex appears to be involved in a surprising amount of decision making. This page on depression covers this in some detail. This page also reports a study from the British Journal of Psychiatry, which notes structural differences in the pre-frontal cortex that are observed between socially well-adjusted individuals and pathological liars, and a parallel reversal of those differences in persons with autistic spectrum conditions (who have been observed for many years as possessing a considerably reduced capacity to lie and fabricate - there are numerous peer reviewed studies with respect to this, from researchers such as Professor Uta Frith and Dr Simon Baron-Cohen).
A peer reviewed paper that can be accessed that discusses several of these findings in detail is this one, in which the connection between pre-frontal cortex damage and increased pursuit of immediate gratification is experimentally verified. This article from the American Journal of Psychiatry also covers the relation between pre-frontal cortex damage and schizophrenia.
So, looks as if the basis for morality is organic, and has precious little to do with any invisible magic men.
At this point, I'd like to introduce everyone to Endal. Endal is a Labrador Retriever. In other words, a dog. This dog has repeatedly demonstrated not only intelligent behaviour (Endal has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to operate a chip and pin ATM cash machine) but has also engaged in the sort of self-sacrificial behaviour that supernaturalists wish to claim is ONLY possible as a result of whatever magic man they happen to believe in. Now, last time I checked, Labrador Retrievers didn't possess any concept of 'god', nor are they noted for having generated amongst themselves anything resembling a 'religion'. On the other hand, since dogs are social animals that adopt a hierarchical structure amongst themselves, and work co-operatively with the dominant animal in the social group, this behaviour is readily explicable in entirely natural terms.
Likewise, I'd like to introduce everyone to Binti Jua. She can be seen in action here. Binti Jua is a female gorilla living in a zoo. Now, once again, as far as I am aware, gorillas don't have a 'god' concept, and haven't manifested behaviour compatible with the development of a 'religion'. However, Binti Jua rescued a 3 year old human child who had fallen into her enclosure, and carried the boy to safety where zookeepers could collect him and pass him on to waiting ambulancemen. I think it's safe to say that Binti Jua hasn't read any holy books lately, and as a consequence, her behaviour is explicable entirely in naturalistic terms, namely that she is a social primate with a sense of empathy for creatures resembling herself that is the product of an evolutionary process.
We humans are capable of grafting additional abstract ideas onto our empathic actions as a consequence of our genetic inheritance of a large cerebral cortex. We are capable of inventing ideas that seem at first sight to have no parallel among other animals, but that incident cited above is not regarded as exceptional by scientists who work with primates and study their social lives. Moreover, both gorillas and chimpanzees have demonstrated a capacity for communication with humans via language. We share more with those other apes than the glib accounts of old mythologies would have us believe, and that shared heritage is being elucidated on a more and more detailed basis with the passage of time. Indeed, detailed observation of other primates reveals that they too possess that brain structure I cited above - the ventromedial pre-frontal cortex. It is larger in humans, because it underwent the same expansion as the cerebral cortex proper in our particular lineage (for more on this, look up the ASPM and FOXP2 genes), but we share that structure with the great apes. We share many of the genes coding for its formation and wiring. And, we share many of the behaviours that this part of the brain is responsible for. In our case, the greater size and greater connectivity with the cerebral cortex proper makes other, newer behaviours possible, but we are not unique in this respect.
Our entire concept of ethics is, basically, another example of emergent complexity in action - emergent complexity made possible by the biological features described above. We can choose to act in a manner that either harms or helps our fellow humans, depending upon whether we give precedence to short-term or long-term goals. But that capacity does not require any supernatural input for explanation - we are increasingly untangling the biological and neurological basis for our behaviour, for our possession of, if you will, a conscience, and that is tied intimately into our heritage as descendants of gregarious apes.
So, combine this with the scientific papers above I've cited with respect to the ventromedial pre-frontal cortex, and I think it's safe to say I've provided plenty of evidence to back up the hypothesis that the products of human thought have an organic basis, and once again, that reference to any invisible magic men is entirely superfluous to requirements.
Pages