Hi, it is my first time in this forum. A little bit about myself, I used to be Christian. No longer am. Science and other moral values have led me to become more agnostic, and maybe even atheist, though agnostic at the time. Anyways, I would like to write discuss a topic that has been in my mind lately. That is of the morality of authority in religion. I will start with an example of authority in a parent-to-child relationship to better explain my topic. I would think that most people agree with the fact that once you grow up, become independent, and mature, you become completely autonomous. That is, that your parents no longer have any authority over you, period. Your experiences with your parents greatly contribute to the type of relationship you sustain with them, but their authority over you, or over your things, they no longer have. If they did, that would be a bit similar to slavery right? So, in the case of a God, for example, the Biblical God, the Bible ultimately states that people have free will, but how can this be, when the Bible also states that God will always have ultimate authority over you? See, some say that you get free will because you get to decide whether to follow the rules of God and submit to him, but isn't such a choice actually limited free will? To me, free will, is not having someone give you choices, of which you never decided on in the first place. What if I don't want to submit to God? I will then burn in hell? Well, I guess even if I don't want to sincerely submit to someone eternally, I will because otherwise I will burn in hell. It's kind of like a robber coming up to you, and giving you the choice to give him your watch and your free to go, and if you choose not to give your watch to him, you die. How is this free will? You were placed in a situation where you were forcefully given options. I don't see any freedom in this. Back to my first point, does submitting to God eternally, and having to praise him eternally, an example of freedom and autonomy. In contrast to your parents, you become your own person once matured and independent, with your parents becoming your peers, who no longer have any authority over you. But with God, since he is the creator, he gets to always have authority over you, eternally, and you can never change that. I honestly feel no freedom in this scenario, but actually feel enslavement in it. I'd rather have my life taken away by such God, who only brought me fourth in order to tell me that I will always be inferior to him, and under his rule, or else. Unless you agree to your parents having eternal authority over you, simply for giving you life, then you I don't see why God should be an exception. In a way, I think if the devil never tried to overthrow God's throne, but simply become as powerful as him, I don't think God would have ever allowed that and probably never gave him the ability to do so. That to me is kind of selfish. Why create beings to always be inferior to you, but give them the ability to want to feel free from your rule? That's pretty sick if you ask me. I don't know if am the only who feels like this.
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We are all agnostic. Agnostic simply means without knowledge. There are things I do not know, thus I am agnostic.
Atheism, simply put, is the lack of any belief in any deities.
In the case of free will, how can anyone have free will to choose with the threat of eternal damnation and torment?
True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine damnation NOR the promise of divine reward.
Religion is like History class. Just no facts. All lies.
I am an Atheist. Yes, that means I have no moral authority to enforce right and wrong. It also means there is only one person preventing me from chopping Religious Absolutists into little pieces, then setting them on fire. And that person ain't God.
Why should anyone cede to religion the right to tell us what is good and what is evil? If you cannot determine the difference between good and evil, then it ain't religion that you lack. It is EMPATHY. Why should anyone cede to religion the RIGHT to tell us what we can and cannot think? The fact that it has nothing else to contribute to human wisdom and knowledge is no reason to hand religion a free license to dictate what is good, what is evil, what we are allowed to think, and what we cannot think.
rmfr
Anyone with knowledge of gravity knows we don't have free will.
The Devil in the Old Testament was actually literally God's devil advocate, a servant of god, used to test the faith of Job. There is a similar sense of this in the New Testament, with the Devil's testing of Jesus. But the Devil as an enemy of God is a Christian invention.
Similarly, the Old Testament doesn't really have a concept of hell as a place where people are punished for eternity: the Jewish concept of hell was a place where your soul was cleansed for a finite amount of time.
I think that is not a fair comparison in that your parents in the Christian worldview are also created creatures under Gods authority, so both you and your parents are ultimately accountable to the same standard. In the same way we are all accountable to the government under which we live, and are bound by the laws of the country or jurisdiction in which we live. To complain this is unfair, is to assume there is an objective standard of what is fair that is over Andy above the government, Is it possible for the greatest conceivable being “God” to create a being equal to himself? No, then He would not be God. If you don’t want to trust in and worship God then don’t, but just as there are consequences to your actions under the worlds legal systems, there are eternal consequences as well. God gives you the ultimate respect and freedom in that you can choose Him now while on earth or not choose Him. Hell is merely the consequence of ones free choice to be separate from God.
AJ777,
"God gives you the ultimate respect and freedom in that you can choose Him now while on earth or not choose Him."
I come from a long line of Ammonite bastards so there is no way I can ever become a member of Yahweh's congregation.
@AJ777
"In the same way we are all accountable to the government under which we live, and are bound by the laws of the country or jurisdiction in which we live."
My government is not concerned about my sex life, while your god is definitely interested in where I stick my penis.
"To complain this is unfair, is to assume there is an objective standard of what is fair "
This will remain an erroneous claim no matter how often you repeat it. One can complain that the latest star wars movie portrayed women in a sexist or mysoginistic way. The complaint does not need star wars to be true, or for star wars books on which the film is based to have an objective standard for gender equality.
Why can't you grasp this simple concept?
In the parable of the "good samaritan" the bible uses a fictional story to give an opinion on morality that was contrary to the commonly held view.
It only makes sense in that context. The story would be entirely superfluous if an objective standard existed.
"To complain this is unfair, is to assume there is an objective standard of what is fair "
That's ridiculous. If I say a person is rude, that doesn't mean there's an objective standard for what is rude. Obviously, there isn't as it's open to personal opinion. The same with fair/unfairness. I can state an argument for why I believe someone/thing is rude/unfair, and you can agree or disagree. There are certain instances where it would be silly to not agree.
To call the actions of God in the Bible "fair" is ridiculous. Unless, of course, you believe that the definition of fairness is "anything that God does", in which case, he can do whatever the hell he wants - torture babies, massacre entire peoples, etc. - and still be a completely fair being. (As if that makes ANY more sense than morality that is subjective, that we must learn about together as a species and continue to develop as we learn more about compassion and what works for our world.)
I guess my main point is that I don't feel it is fair to create people, then expect them to always want to praise you and live under your authority. I on one hand feel the desire to be free from such type of authority. I don't mind governmental authority, because in a democracy, your vote counts, but in a monarchy like "God's", it feel unfair. I feel like a being who craate's other beings made to always be inferior is wrong.
@ Searching & Exp...
You would do best to disregard anything AJ777 has to say. If you are a new atheist, do not listen to AJ. He has the right to say whatever he wishes, but does not have right to have anything he says believed.
rmfr
AJ777: "I think that is not a fair comparison in that your parents in the Christian worldview are also created creatures under Gods authority, so both you and your parents are ultimately accountable to the same standard."
And what exactly is not fair of the comparison?
rmfr
If God exists, then necessarily all other beings must be inferior to Him. A fish may desire ultimate freedom and flop onto the grass, but that is not where the fish will find freedom.
@AJ777 Re: "If God exists, then necessarily all other beings must be inferior to Him."
Well, since I have had a shitty day for the last two or three days, I do believe this will be a perfect time to put myself back into a good mood. That being said, even IF your god did happen to exist, then he can use his free will to go fuck himself, because I refuse to bow my knee to anything or anybody, and MUCH LESS so to any being that demonstrates the type of insecure, narcissistic, megalomania, psychotic, egotistical, genocidal, hypocritical tendencies displayed by the god of the bible and/or koran. And, quite frankly, I do not care how inferior it sees me as being. Sure, it can do to me whatever it wants and there would be nothing I could do about it. Matter of fact, according to YOUR belief, that god actually KNOWS exactly what I am thinking and doing at this very moment, and it should be able to do ANYTHING it wants to do to me. Yet..... here I still sit typing..... *shrugging shoulders*.... What it amounts to is that any being/entity such as that is not even worth my respect, MUCH LESS my worshiping it. But, hey, you feel free to bend and grovel all you want. No skin off my nose.
Funny to me, though, how so many theists simply DO NOT GRASP the following concerning "Free Will".... A couple of mean and nasty tough looking guys with guns walk into a business and approach the meek and mild-mannered owner and tell him, "Hey, you have a really nice place here, and you seem to make pretty good money. It would be a shame if anybody were to come in here and mess up your place and possibly you and your employees. But, hey, you are in luck. Me and my buddy here will make sure that never happens as long as you pay us some protection money each week. Remember, though, you don't HAVE TO pay us. Totally YOUR choice. We don't want to force you to do something you don't want to do. However, it would be a shame if your place got messed up by some people we know if you DON'T pay us. Your call, buddy. You are free to make whatever decision you want." Hey! CLUE! That is NOT free will! And it just so happens that is EXACTLY the same thing your god does to humanity as a whole. And you actually want to WORSHIP something like that???? Wow.... More power to you, pal. Have fun with that.... *chuckle"... *waving hand in dismissal*....
(Ahhhhhh..... Feeling a bit better now.... *smile*)
@Search&Ex
Oh, by the way, welcome to the AR. Yeah, the technical term for what god does is called "extortion." For some odd reason, though, theists cannot seem to wrap their heads around that. Oh, well. What can one do? You can lead a dolt to knowledge, but you cannot make him think. Good to have you with us.
@AJ777
"A fish may desire ultimate freedom and flop onto the grass, but that is not where the fish will find freedom."
Well, actually, you are not quite right.
I offer just one quick reference:
tetrapods
Some very ancient and ambitious fish crawled out of the water onto land, rather than "flopped".
I am not suggesting these tetrapods ultimately found freedom as such, but if you follow the basics of evolution they did begin the sequence of variations that led to the diversification of fauna on land leading eventually to the rise of a few bipedal anthropoid species, one of which excercised its freedom to believe in imaginary entities, like gods.
And then there were more developed members of the same species, who did not.
AJ777 "If God exists, then necessarily all other beings must be inferior to Him."
Only if You arbitrarily define your deity in that way, so this is another vapid tautology.
If I define an invisible unicorns as superior to your deity then I have imagined something superior to it. I could add characteristics that help bolster this claim, but like your claim it remains a meaningless word game.
"A fish may desire ultimate freedom and flop onto the grass, but that is not where the fish will find freedom."
An ironic claim given how many land dwelling species were once ocean dwelling. Amphibious animals can leave the water and find freedom on land as well. Your analogy is a poor one,m but theistic analogies always are as they usually compare reality to a fiction.
Another inane assertion. I desire ultimate freedom so I walk into a fire but that is not where I will find freedom? Am I free to end my life if I so choose? Would that not be the "ULTIMATE" choice? Do you understand the words you are using?
Ultimate: - the last in a progression or series : final.(YOU DO NOT GET TO ASSERT A HEAVEN OR HELL INTO EXISTENCE WITHOUT EVIDENCE. YOU DO NOT GET TO ASSERT A SPIRIT OR SOUL WITHOUT EVIDENCE. YOU CAN NOT ASSERT AN AFTERLIFE INTO EXISTENCE WITHOUT EVIDENCE,)
There isn't anything more ultimate than choosing to end your life. Assuming of course that a fish actually has the intelligence to seek ultimate freedom.
More utter foolishness on your part.
AJ777: "If God exists, then necessarily all other beings must be inferior to Him."
Only one problem with this statement. How can God be superior when us lowly animals create laws against the terroristic laws of your immoral monster? We humans abolished slavery. We humans gave females equality. And the list goes on and on...
How can your Sky Faerie be superior to us humans when its morality is monstrous at best?
Robert A Heinlein: “Men rarely, if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled brat.”
rmfr
@AJ777: If God exists, then necessarily all other beings must be inferior to Him
I've never caused people to suffer from cancer, polio, the Black Death, cholera, etc., or stood by watching despite having the power to help them. I've never created beings with innate characteristics like curiosity, rebellion, and sexual desire and then punished them for following those tendencies. I've never created people with varying shades of skin color and then set them at each other's throats. I've never created a Caligula, Elizabeth Báthory or Adolf Hitler and unleashed them on a suffering world.
So I guess in all of these ways, I'm morally superior to god.
If you bend your knee to any deity, you cannot have free will. Every second of your life is controlled and monitored, and harsh punishment is doled out by a vicious and sadistic god. According to the bible, even what you think is monitored.
On a personal note, since I realized my atheism I feel like the shackles of slavery have been lifted from my shoulders. I am free, free, at last. As far as morality, I must practice it even more carefully because I am now accountable to myself. I can't blame some fairy in the sky with such crap as "the devil made me do it".
Just the opposite, I now must make every effort to do no harm to anyone, be compassionate, and be a benchmark in my community as one who does good and leads by example.
It's free will lite. Where you have the illusion of choice. Like a Mafia hit man asking you to choose whether you'll do as your told or have your legs broken. You are free to choose in no real sense as all you have been given is two choices you must adhere to.
Searching & Exp...: RE: "That is of the morality of authority in religion."
There is no morality in authority. Do as I say or I will torture you - IS NOT MORAL. Do as I say and I will reward you - IS NOT MORAL. Morality can not be dictated and if a person is acting moral to earn a reward or avoid a punishment - THEY HAVE NO INTERNALIZED SENSE OF MORALITY.
"Bible also states that God will always have ultimate authority over you?"
YES - Your logic is right on target. Christians move from mommy and daddy at home to daddy in the sky and mommy Church. What is the message of Mommy Church? "You just wait until daddy Sky God comes home, then you are going to get what you deserve."
"I think if the devil never tried to overthrow God's throne, but simply become as powerful as him,"
The "Devil" and "Hell" are Christian creations. They do not exist in Judaism. They were invented by the Christian Church and not even all Christian Churches believe in them., These ideas are more "Fundamentalist." If you do a bit of research on the origins of the ideas of Satan and Hell, your assertions will simply fade into history. They are myths created by ancient iron age people, just like the God myth. Their evolution can be easily traced into the horror story we have today.
Are you the only one who feels like RELIGION is a frigging MIND TRAP? Of course not!
Searching & Exp...,
"See, some say that you get free will because you get to decide whether to follow the rules of God and submit to him, but isn't such a choice actually limited free will?"
As I've said before, I come from a long line of Ammonite bastards so even if I wanted to I could never join the congregation of Yahweh. So how can I have free will under the biblical fairy tale rules?
Well thanks guys! I appreciate the warm welcome lol Yeah, I thought I was alone thinking the way I did.
Welcome Searching & Exp...
You are not alone.
Like almost all atheists, you are willing to apply critical thought to religion, and ask the hard questions. You are a searcher for the truth, and I commend you for that.
What David said ^^^^^^^^^^^^
rmfr
PS — And welcome to our little corner of the WWW Hell. Free thinkers are always welcome.
"I would think that most people agree with the fact that once you grow up, become independent, and mature, you become completely autonomous. That is, that your parents no longer have any authority over you, period"
Not always. Independence is for those who are mentally willing and able to have no dependency on the safety net their parents and their inheritance (if applicable) provides. A lot of people are not truly independent. This does not mean they are slaves.
If you choose not to believe in God then choosing not to believe in hell should go hand-in-hand. People who use their free will to choose a life of servitude to a deity that no one can confirm exists... That is voluntary slavery or "Self-Imposed tutelage" as so very well put by Immanuel Kant.