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Old Man: Simply amazing how theists cling to their inane beliefs with facts and evidence staring at them. A deluded human mind is an amazing thing.
@ Cog
Tell me about it. I mean, just look at Tin Man...
@Old man shouts ...: Yes Tin - Ye Ole Bucket-brain. Seriously speaking, we could simply replace his logic chip and he would make a lot more sense. But face it, he wouldn't be nearly as much fun.
@ Cog
He's got a logic chip? *incredulous look* Seriously? Are you sure it isn't one of those model railway sound cards? Or even an 8 pin blank?
@Old Man: Well, when I say logic chip I am referring to the Model K invented by George Stibitz. I'm not actually sure if you could run a train set with it or not.
@Old Man and Cog Re: Logic chip
It's called an ABACUS, you two bumble brains! Mine just happens to be a customized miniature made small enough to fit in my skull.
@Tin-Man
I wonder if it could be linked with a meat brain like mine, so that when i am... ahem...bowing head in shame...drunk, it could help me in not doing moronic things?
@Talyyn: RE: Keep you from doing moronic things???
There is absolutely nothing in the evidence we have that would even come close to the idea that Tin Man's abacus could prevent you from doing moronic things. You might try putting a rock in your pocket? It might be as useless as Tin Man's abacus but at least you would have someone to talk to.
@Talyyn Re; "I wonder if it could be linked with a meat brain like mine, so that when i am... ahem...bowing head in shame...drunk, it could help me in not doing moronic things?"
I wish I had some good news for you on that... *shaking head sadly*... But even IF there were a way to connect them, I doubt it would do much good in countering the effects of alcohol. Hell, if anything, it might even make matters WORSE! Because I can tell you from experience, if I drink enough, the alcohol seems to do some really strange things with those dang beads. Don't know if it loosens them up or causes them to get stuck, but either way, the damn things just seem to go haywire on their wires. I've lost count of the various types of structures I have climbed (or attempted to climb) after the over-consumption of adult beverages. It is a wonder I am still alive and in one piece today... *chuckle*...
@Tin
Ooooh!... Seriously, you should check things before installing them in yourself! Mmmmh, those trans humanists really sell lies from times to times with their machine-human interface thing. sticking tongue out of the mouth!
If that were the case you'd have addressed the points and questions in the OP.
Christianity has long established dogma of antisemitism over centuries, and that is the context under which the Holocaust was perpetrated in a central European country that was almost entirely Christian at the time and had been for centuries, in a continent that was itself majority christian for centuries.
How long are you going to ignore my point that being a christian was a requirement for the German SS, who of course ran the extermination camps?
Or the point about a 1939 census showing over 94% of Germans were Christians?
Each time you repeat this point and ignore these facts reinforces how dishonestly your approaching the topic, to satisfy your own bias against legitimate criticisms of christianity.
Then there is the bible depicting a deity that performs and encourages its followers to commit, ethnic cleansing and genocide, and sex trafficking women and girls. And of course the bible, and even Jesus's endorsements of slavery?
Then there was your claim to believe based on logic, and evidence,, yet you have provided no evidence, just anecdotal claims, and you have refused repeatedly to acknowledge the endless logical fallacies you have used when they are pointed out.
fact
noun
a thing that is known or proved to be true.
belief
noun
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
Come on now Jo, beliefs can be held as the affirmation of a claim for which there is no objective evidence whatsoever, such as theism, and they can be held because there is overwhelming objective evidence that puts them beyond any reasonable or rational doubt, as is the case with scientific facts like species evolution through natural selection.
Lets not forget that you, and the other theists here, are the ones setting a biased double standard for belief, where the only beliefs you hold without any objective evidence are your religious beliefs.
Whilst I don't agree with the claim, even if it were true how would this make them any less valid than your beliefs which are based on exclusively on unevidenced claims and opinions? To be honest Jo most religious apologists don't even seem to realise that's all they're offering, and you are certainly no exception.
To be clear here Jo, you do accept that all of the thousands of other religions are man made, all except yours of course? Now if you can't see the dishonest bias is yours there, then that's hard to believe. However please do enthral us with precisely what you are basing this belief on? You have already told us you can demonstrate no objective evidence, only anecdotal claims for personal experience that all other religions lay the exact same claim to.
@New Skeptic: Oiling session, That fucktard. He is such a slut. He will let anyone oil him. Ratty showed up the other day with his hair all sticking out and stinking of oil, said he had been to the beach. Old man came by stinking of oil and said he used it for his bike. All lies. Tin just likes getting the rubdowns. Once he spots a sucker, he hits them up over and over and over again. Hell, you will give him a good oiling in the morning and then he will forget it was you and ask you for an oiling in the evening. He is an oiling pervert. He needs group therapy. Oiladducts anonymous. The only thing worse than Tin's oil addiction is Old Man on his trike, riding about and telling people to pull his finger.
Hey Cog....pull my finger *giggles, farts and rides away*
@Cog Re: "He [Tin-Man] is such a slut."
Ahem!... I prefer the term "Opportunist", thank you very much. (It looks better on a job application.)
To anyone who is interested in the facts, here is the evidence to show that I have not done what the OP has claimed.
The OP asks, “How long are you going to ignore my point that being a christian was a requirement for the German SS, who of course ran the extermination camps?”
Please see the forum “There is no evidence for abcense” post #70 where I ask the OP for a reference to his claim. He has never given one. I asked the OP “You previously said "only christians were allowed to join the German SS."
Now you say, "All SS soldiers were required to swear an oath to Hitler before God."
“I know what he would say if I had done that.
The OP claims that I have ignored “the point about a 1939 census showing over 94% of Germans were Christians?” I have not ignored it. In fact, I addressed Nazi/Christianity at length in the above forum. The OP has missed the fact that if 6% were not Christians, then how could all of the SS have been Christians?
The OP claims “Then there is the bible depicting a deity that performs and encourages its followers to commit, ethnic cleansing and genocide, and sex trafficking women and girls. And of course the bible, and even Jesus's endorsements of slavery?”
The OP's apologetics are not objective.
I have addressed the claim of racism in the Bible on numerous posts.
I have also directly addressed this type of claim at length. Please see post #5 in the forum Omnipotence and ALL-POWERFUL - difference?
The OP makes these statements.
“Atheism has no dogma or doctrinal teachings, so beyond the lack of belief in a deity an atheist may believe or disbelieve literally anything. Thus what one one atheist does has no bearing on atheism.”
“Christianity has long established dogma of antisemitism over centuries, and that is the context under which the Holocaust was perpetrated in a central European country that was almost entirely Christian at the time and had been for centuries, in a continent that was itself majority christian for centuries.”
Please notice how he changes his reasoning between the two statements.
What is the point of these statements?
Is it a guilt by association fallacy?
He presented Christianity as being monolithic and universal.
How many thousands of Christian groups are there?
What do all Christians have in common but some vague affinity for Christ. If that.
Why am I not addressing the OP directly?
Because he does not go by the rules, he so rigorously enforces on me.
He is generous with his judgments of my posts.
Yet repeatedly ignores misquoting me.
Please reference post #282 on the forum "A question for theist".
I asked him 4 times (now 5) to respond to this.
He has avoided addressing this, all the while inspiring a choir of condemnation to accuse me.
@Jo
Can you think of no other possible plausible scenario here for the 6% ?
Like perhaps they were barred from joining the SS because they were not christian? Do you really think that was not a possible scenario? Additionally, is 94+ % representation not enough to say super strong christian majority? That christians do get to own this even if ~5% of those in the SS were not?
Are you saying christianity is not universal? Well you heard it from the "horse's mouth," christianity is not universal, it is limited, and their god is limited. How limited? Who knows, but it is obviously as a follower representative here says, not universal. Hey it seems like you are making progress Jo. So not only is christianity not universal, but it was close to universal for the SS. Wow what a picture you paint for christianity!
Nice of you to point out how vague and diverse within christianity it all is. Everyone supposedly worshipping same god and some sort of son of god/trinity etc. Some all mighty god that can't even get major details correct among its own religion subsects.
@ LogicFTW
It was not me who mentioned that Hitler was a Christian
It was not me who made the claim that only Christians were allowed to join the SS.
See forum "There is no evidence of abcense" post #62 and #66.
What is the point they were making? Guilt by association?
Is that what you mean by "christians do get to own this".
The OP has not reference his claim.
The fact is that about half of the SS were not even ethnic Germans.
There was a Muslim division and a Indian Division.
Here are some references.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Ha...(1st_Croatian)
https://ww2gravestone.com/most-members-of-the-waffen-ss-were-not-german/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts
Do the facts matter?
@Jo
Would not expect you to. So I will ask, do you agree/disagree that Hitler was christian? How about that Nazi Germany leadership was majority christian?
Basically yes, we see all the time people hopping into these forums and saying Hitler was atheist. Reality is, Hitler, and the SS had a HUGE christian presence, as you point out in your wikipedia references. And these references only point to the Waffen SS. Examining nazi germany leadership I imagine we will find even higher percentages of christian.
I think they do, they are very important to me. Fact remains that much of nazi leadership was christian, including Hitler himself, and he used lots of christian ideas in his propaganda. I actually don't really care, it does not surprise me some religion idea is behind yet another atrocities, this one being world war 2 and the accompanying genocide. I just get annoyed when the un-informed spout that hitler was an atheist, when the opposite is true, that is THEIR religion, their crazy god idea that hitler was following, using, etc. Because the facts do matter.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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@ Logic FTW
Yes, Hitler always identified as a Christian.
Yes, 94%, or maybe 100% of the Nazi's identified as Christian.
But what does that have to do with me?
Am I somehow guilty or responsible?
When someone who identifies as X does something wrong.
Does that indict everyone who is an X?
The Nazi's were also Socialists. Does that indict all Socialists?
They were also of European decent. Does that indict all those of European decent?
Have you ever been to an allied cemetery and seen the rows of crosses?
Did you have any family members fight and die during WW2? I did.
Yeh, I know the word appears in the name of the party; but your statement that the Nazi's were socialists is ridiculous; in fact they were often refereed to as anti-socalists. But I guess this statement of yours is not as ridiculous as when you told us that Nazi's can't be Christian, imo.
@ Nyarlathotep
I know you would not let me get by with it, so...
Are you saying they were not TRUE Socialists?
No, I'm saying the party got that name long before Hitler and his crew joined. I'm saying it is a misnomer; a label that perhaps made sense when it was originally attached to the organization; but by 1933 was no longer a meaningful description.
For example: I happen to have a bachelors of science degree; despite the fact that I'm not a bachelor or a scientist. Not unlike the Holy Roman Empire; which wasn't very holy, certainly wasn't Roman, and certainly wasn't an empire.
/e Being a fan of Orwell, I'd argue the word socialism has no meaning; but let's leave that for a different thread.
@Jo
Thank you for answering my question.
You mean besides the obvious? That you are here debating/preaching christianity as correct, where we are pointing out that hitler and nazi germany used and was influenced heavily by christianity. Do I think you are guilty or responsible? Of course not! Do you really think I or others here would think you were somehow responsible? You likely were not even alive! Hitler would be 130 years old if he was still alive today.
Wow it really does seem like you feel like we are saying you are responsible. Well let me again reillustrate, I do not hold you accountable for what hitler/nazi's did. I would consider myself a FOOL if I did. I do hold christianity accountable for the part it played in hitler/nazi germany. Its "another nail in the coffin" for christianity. It is one of my favorite points to bring up, because the particularly uninformed religious apologist out there like to say hitler was an atheist, when in reality, Hitler and nazi germany identified FAR stronger as christian.
Now you may want to run down the street of: "well something as large as christianity can't be responsible for all members and how people subvert it." But in reality that is a slap in the face of your supposed all good all powerful all knowing god idea. It delegitimize the whole religious idea if anyone can go commit atrocities in the name of christianity, there is no power or wisdom at the top preventing the religion idea subversion. In fact this sort of stuff is right in line with the long blood history of christianity.
It is more compelling evidence that there is no god. Additionally it is more evidence that god is a human created idea.
I will let Nyarl's response handle that.
Yep, same here. I imagine most of us do. What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying because you have family members that died in ww2 you somehow have a stronger more authoritative position on this?
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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@ Logic FTW
"I do hold christianity accountable for the part it played in hitler/nazi germany."
If they had been Atheists would you use a different line of reasoning?
I am not saying they were Atheists.
They were 100% (not 94%) all Germans and all Men.
Do you blame all men or all Germans?
Was it European culture that was at fault? They were 100% European.
I am trying to show that correlation does not equal causation.
It is a Post Hoc, or Faulty Cause Fallacy.
Yes, there were Christians and Christian Churches that were antisemitic.
Yes, there have been many evils done in the name of Christianity.
There have been Atheist, Agnostics, Deists, and Disbelievers who have also done evil.
Do you use the same standard to judge them?
"But in reality that is a slap in the face of your supposed all good all powerful all knowing god idea."
Are you saying that God should not have given people free will?
Because people have free will there is no good God?
You think God should not allow people to think or act evil?
What should he do?
The first sentence is a direct contradiction of your earlier claims? The second sentence is again trying to make an analogous comparison between the behaviour of an atheist and atheism, atheism doesn't have any dogma or doctrine, thus the two are not analogous. European Christianity held antisemitism as part of its dogma for centuries, and this was the context under which the Holocaust occurred in a christian country, perpetrated by the SS, who were all required to swear an oath before God, its asinine to assume this was not the Christian deity for the German SS who controlled and ran the death camps.
You have also now contradicted your earlier claims where you cited Nazis as atheists. Hitler was a lifelong catholic, albeit with an unwillingness to devolve any power in his regime to the RCC, but did sign a concordat with the RCC, this alone is a shocking indictment of the largest Christian church at the time.
Again an absurdly dishonest and stupid question, is antisemitism an inherent dogma of either demographic of being a man, or being a German? Note again that no one here has suggested all Christian's are culpable for the centuries of antisemitism inherent in European christianity, this is a dishonest straw man Jo keeps repeating.
Hmm, you seem to want to argue both positions, unless this again is a repetition of the dishonest claim that anyone here has assigned culpability for the Holocaust to ALL CHRISTIANS. Come on now Jo, you've lost your original position so completely and dishonestly this is becoming farcical. You can't simultaneously argue christianity was culpable, and simultaneously not a contributing cause.
Yes, every single time, but since disbelief doesn't have any doctrinal teachings or dogma then this is their culpability alone, whereas you have just admitted that christianity has taught antisemitism as part of its dogma. It was part of European christian dogma for centuries, and therefore a contributing cause to the Holocaust. Let's not forget the bible portrays a deity that commits and endorses both genocide, and ethnic cleansing, can you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you deny causation here? Just as southern christian plantation owners used the bible to endorse slavery, so it is obvious Nazi Christian's used the bible and christianity's centuries of antisemitic dogma to help justify the Holocaust. In Mein Kampf Hitler outlined his plans for the Jews of Europe, and claimed he was doing God's work, and to be clear he declared himself a Christian, even right at the end when all political mileage could reasonably be expected to have been lost to the claim.
Are you saying your deity doesn't intervene for the benefit of its adherents when they pray and have faith? If it does why allow the Holocaust, but help someone win at sports or the lottery, or heal a lame beggar? You can't excuse the barbarity inherent in an omniscient deity doing nothing about the holocaust with the lame excuse of allowing free will, then insist it intervenes and negates free will to perform miracles.
Again you are cherry picking arguments from religious apologetics that are demonstrably contradictory, as and when it suits, can you really not see how woefully hypocritical such arguments are? That's astonishing.
@Jo
No. But I would be very surprised if atheist were behind hitler/nazi germany, atheist do not tend to organize as groups, certainly not at that level. It would of been really unprecedented, where as its "par for the course" for christianity.
I think it would be fair and justified for women to blame the men involved in their role of nazi germany and accompanying genocide. And I think most all of us blamed germany as a whole unit for their part in all of it. But am I saying all german men alive today should be punished for the actions of their grandfathers? Of course not, this is why I used the words: "accountable for the part it played" If you are a devout christian do I blame you for world war 2? No, that would be stupid on my part. But do I think christianity had a large role in ww2, any group that thinks they are better then other humans (this is what religions do!) needs to be held accountable for their actions. And they did. Nazi germany got utterly destroyed. The whole point here is, christianity, not atheist played the large role for nazi germany.
I agree correlation does not equal causation. But I disagree that there is any fallacy occurring here. I think it would be ignoring huge libraries of fact to say that christianity played no role in nazi germany, and it is even worse when some christian apologetics try to say hitler was an atheist and try to imply nazi germany/holocaust was actually an atheist thing instead of their own religion being the one that was clearly at play/involved.
I would like to think I do. I have made over 3000 post on these forums. Never had anyone say that I used different standards to judge atheist versus theist that I am aware of. I think it is safe to say in my writing here, that yes I use the same standard.
You do realize when you bring up the whole "free will" argument, you are simply pointing out huge hypocrisy in your god idea right? "God" of your particular religion idea wants you to believe/worship him and only it, or you will not get into heaven with it. And depending on which variation of your particular religion idea, if you don't you will burn for an eternity in hell. That is NOT free will. If you were to take such a ridiculous assertion of heaven/hell at face value, it is worse than someone holding a gun to your head and everyone you care about and forcing you to do as they say. Especially because its so "vague" about it, you dont even know exactly what to do to please your god idea except to worship it without reservation or questioning.
Then as soon as something fucked up happens in religion, say, nazi germany, its... oh we have free will, god gave us free will to do horrible things!
WTF!
How does this not sound like something humans came up with 1000's of years ago, in effort to control people, instead of: some sort of good, almighty god?
This is getting off topic, but what is free will? Do we even have it? An argument can be made that we have no free will, (none of us,) that is just as solid as the counter argument that we do all have free will. It unfortunately is not something we can really test. We can go down the free will debate, but just realize it is getting way off topic of what we are talking about here.
No. Free will does not preclude the hypothetical of your god idea. Nor does it confirm it. It actually does nothing for the various "god" arguments. I am happy to argue that every god I ever heard of, is not a "good" god. But again that is getting off topic but happy to talk about that if you want.
If there was an actual "god" anything remotely as depicted by the various religion ideas, said god has a lot of explaining to do. Especially if it wants to pass it self off as "good" for the human race/planet. I personally can not think of any possible explanation that would work for the various god ideas, perhaps you can? (That is not: "god works in mysterious ways!")
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Probably the fact you have denied Hitler was a christian, and claims Nazis couldn't be Christian's, using the No True Scotsman fallacy, which several posters pointed out, and which you then denied.
It also drives a bus through the unevidenced claim for moral ascendancy that theists, including you make for theistic beliefs. The old without a deity we can do anything we want argument, when this example you've just accepted shows that believing in a deity, christian or otherwise doesn't remotely improve the believers morality. Morality is a subjective choice, simple as that. Objective morality doesn't exist.
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