John 61x breezy
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John 6IX Breezy,
You're making the usual mistake about the Ten Commandments. The laws that you think are the Ten Commandments are not the real Ten Commandments, which are found in Exodus chapter 34:10-28.
Even if I was, the only mistake here is with the labels, not the laws. You still cannot murder, and that is still a basic and universal rule in the bible, regardless if you label it the ten commandments or not. I disagree with your claim, but even if you were right my statements still stands, and so does my argument
John,
If you cannot murder then how is god justified with commanding people to murder?
As for slaves... if god commands to kill all men children and women that have known man, then take the virgins for yourselves, how is that indentured servitude?
You cannot quote one law that says to not murder then ignore all the murder that GOD commanded.
Your arguments are silly.
I will say this, when it comes to evolution sure you have good points ( none that disprove evolution) but good points. But when we talk about your actual beliefs your arguments fall apart. I have said this before, go and read your bible, then have a talk about what it says. If you think man played a part and twisted things against gods will... well I have a argument for that as well.
People have told me "why are you mad at god?"
A) I do not believe he exists. So why would I be mad at a fictional character?
B) I am mad that humans are ignorant enough to believe and make laws based on this silly book.
C) religion relies on the ignorance of its followers!
D) people have died either because of the Bible's immoral commands or they have died for the Bible's immoral commands.
See I have no care in the world what you personally believe, but when you also have the ability to vote for laws that affect me and my children, now that's where I decided to fight back.
I haven't ignored anything. The murders you say I'm ignoring were simply not part of this conversation. The "God endorses slavery" argument and the "God Is a genocidal maniac" argument are separate topics. We can discuss the latter after we've discussed the former
"the only mistake here is with the labels, not the laws. You still cannot murder, and that is still a basic and universal rule in the bible, regardless if you label it the ten commandments or not. I disagree with your claim, but even if you were right my statements still stands, and so does my argument"
So how is this not relevant to the conversation?
Did I not cite exodus??? Did god allow you to kill your slave/ servant as long as they didn't die within a day or two?
“And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.”
Exodus 21:20-21 KJV
http://bible.com/1/exo.21.20-21.kjv
Please again I ask you go actually read your bible, you obviously have not!
Like I said you seem to have good questions when it comes to evolution but every time you speak of the Bible your arguments are sad, silly and fall apart!
He does not allow you to kill your servant. He does not allow you to harm them. He does not allow your cattle to harm them. He does not allow your servant to work on the Sabbath. He does not allow you to kidnap and sell people into slavery. He does not allow you to buy slaves that were kidnapped. He does not even allow you to return a runaway slave. That means if a slave feels oppressed or mistreated, they can literally just walk out and nobody can stop them.
You cannot ignore these verses. To suggest you can kill your servant, so long as they die after two days, but no later and no sooner, is incoherent. You cannot exaggerate what is written.
Previously I pointed to the ambiguity of the verse, and how different translations render it differently. I will withdraw that argument until I receive word from a rabbi I asked about the translation. In the meantime I want to emphasize a key point that stands regardless of the proper translation. These verses are concerned with punishments. They are not discussing what is permissible, or what you're allowed to do. They are discussing the consequences of wrong behavior.
I find it interesting that the verses preceding the one in question bear many similarities:
“If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed, if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed."
These verses are telling you the punishment for hurting someone to the point he is bedridden for a few days. The punishment is money. You must pay them for their lost time. However, the question then becomes what happens if it's your servant? Again money. Except that in this case the servant himself was your income. Hurting your servant is like shooting yourself in the foot. The time they spend bedridden is your own loss of money. This is why translations rendered thus make more sense: "but they are not to be punished [with death] if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their money."
However, even if it is rendered the opposite way, "if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished [with death]; for he is his property." It is still not condoning murder, it is not allowing it, it is not giving permission, endorsement, or support to it. It is telling you the punishment for it, which is monetary loss.
We can argue about whether or not the punishment is too light. I myself agree it does seem too light. But to argue the Bible approves of murdering of your slaves, is not substantiated by the verse. Killing your servant, killing anybody, is off limits
So just to understand your understanding...
Killing is not ok and the verse is only about punishments if you do happen to kill your slave the money you lose is punishment enough? That means that killing is wrong?
Hmmmm seems a little off to me.
How much do you feel another human is worth?
Another couple questions I have for you personally:
-do you think it is ok to own another human being as property and pass them down to your children?
-do you think it is ok if you give your slave a wife that she and any kids she bears are yours?
-do you think that it is ok to own another human for life because he wants to keep his family together?
Correct, the verse is only about punishment. It should also be noted that it doesn't tell us the circumstances of the death. Previous verses distinguish between people that "scheme and kill someone deliberately," and deaths "not done intentionally." This verse does not specify if the servant is struck deliberately or unintentionally. It may be the case that the first part refers to deliberately killing the servant, at which point you're punished by death; and in the second part, the slave surviving a day or two, implies it wasn't intentional, thus why you're not punished by death.The life of another person is priceless. These verses are not setting a price for a person, since no amount of punishment can bring the person back.
-Scripture doesn't say they choose slavery because they want to keep their family together. It specifically adds because they love the master and the master's family too. Scripture also doesn't tell you where the wife came from. It could be the master's own daughter, another family member, or another servant. If the wife is another servant, the same rules apply, she must be released after the sixth year. Once the husband's time expires he goes free, but she remains in servitude until her time is up, then she goes free too.
-There's lots to say about passing down to your children. So I'll leave that for later.
This isn't not just cherry picking, this is flat out lying in order to prove your point.
So it's ok for a father to GIVE his daughter to his slave? Does she have a say? What if she doesn't want to be with him? Can she say no? If she does is her punishment death?
I don't know if she has a say. Many societies have arranged marriages, but that does not mean the parents don't care what the children want. I think its wrong to always assume the worst whenever there is silence or ambiguity in a verse.
However, I'm not flat out lying. I'm deducing. Scripture doesn't talk about who the wife is, and we know the contrary is true: "If he selects her [a slave] for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter." If a son can be given in marriage to a slave. I don't see why a daughter cannot be given in marriage to a slave as well.
Well first I will ignore the whole give the daughter issue that can be another topic on another thread...
You are lying about the loophole to enslave your fellow Hebrew for life..
"He says he loves his master and his masters family"
“If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.”
Exodus 21:4-6 KJV
http://bible.com/1/exo.21.4-6.kjv
If he doesn't say I love my master than he loses his wife and children! How do you deduce that? I am all up for debate but when you out right lie and deceive what the scripture actually says you are a liar and your credibility is shit. So as I keep saying this please read your bible and then come talk to me.
I don't see where I have lied. I just didn't allow you to ignore important factors. Such as the wife, if she is a fellow servant, was still to be freed after six years by law. Other verses give more detail: "If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with a wife, his wife is to leave with him."
There is no incentive to keep the wife unlawfully, unless she was already under contract. No mention of divorce if the husband chooses to be free. After all, divorce is frowned upon in Scripture.
Again you have ignored the verse so let me put the whole thing up for you since you seem ok with not addressing this issue! You said that the slave says he loves his master AND HIS MASTERS FAMILY"
“Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.”
Exodus 21:1-6 KJV
http://bible.com/1/exo.21.1-6.kjv
So you are saying that the 3 year old is an indentured servant?????
Oh and to add to this... you are only talking about Hebrew slaves. So what about non-Hebrew slaves?
I was only talking about Hebrew slaves. I said earlier we could discuss others (those inherited by children etc.) when we focus on that.
No, 3 year olds are not indentured servants. If anything, they stay with the mother, obviously, because she nurses them. When I said "he loves his master AND HIS MASTERS FAMILY." I was quoting from Deuteronomy.
Verse?
Also we were talking slavery as a whole in the Bible. Forget giving slaves to your children what about buying non-Hebrew slaves?
Deuteronomy 15:12-18.
The only verses that talk about non-Hebrew slaves are found in Leviticus 25:44-46. This is the only place it specifically mentions foreign slaves. Read through it, and reconvene tomorrow. Just remember all the slave laws and protections we've discussed still apply to them. The only one that doesn't appears to be rules about Jubilee. The question becomes why.
"He does not allow you to kill your servant. He does not allow you to harm them."
Exodus 21
20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.…
Try again....
" You still cannot murder, and that is still a basic and universal rule in the bible, "
This simply is not true, the bible endorses murder again and again. Both by god, and endorsed and encouraged by god. It's absurd to make an arbitrary claim like yours that cherry picks some texts and ignores others to try and dishonestly validate the claim.
Do you think it is morally acceptable for instance to torture a new born baby to death just because you are annoyed because it's parents conceived the baby in an adulterous affair? The god of the bible did precisely that according to your bible, why would anyone think such a being moral at all, let alone worthy of worship?
How many babies did god kill in his genocidal global flood in the Noah myth, according to the bible?
"slavery back then was contractual. More similar with itinerant servants, than the enslavement of African Americans."
Is it ok to own another human being ever, because that is what the bible endorses, and it does it quite specifically. Is it ok to beat a slave to death as long as they don't die within 48 hours, because that is what the bible endorses. Apologetics tries to interpret meanings that beyond merely subjective, and ignore the actual text. Hence the frustration when you decide the questions are not "relevant" and dismiss them. Bearing in mind according to that same bible this is a deity that found time command people not to covet things, a fairly innocuous and ubiquitous part of human nature, and not to eat shell fish or wear blended clothes. To condemn consenting adults from being in love with each other and having a physical relationship because they happen to be born gay, but the best it could manage on slavery was to set out rules on how people should buy, own and beat them.
John 6IX Breezy,
I'll bet galley slaves and salt mine slaves didn't have contracts in ancient times.
Jon, you wrote, “You’re talking to the wrong theists.”
How in the wide, wide world of sports do you tell the difference?
I will volunteer to moderate. And Breezy, before you say I'll be biased, let me share this point of data: The other day BYB (yes,the one you are being challenged by right now. ) was objecting to a theist's logic and his objection was wrong and so I corrected it.(In fact I told the Interlocutor that he was in fact correct on many points despite out disagreement on the god issue.) Why would I do that? Because I seek truth not vindication. If someone evades a question or is dishonest I have no problem pointing it out. (Plus I pay for premium internet connection).
Suggestion: you can do it in the forum as well. It would give time for each side to look stuff up, true, but evading questions and being dishonest would be rendered nearly impossible. Others could comment but a rule would be that they would be ignored... Others' input would be irrelevant to the debate. I would then focus primarily on watching the exchange.
And you could set up rules such as no links, word limits or whatever you agreed upon. I think it's a good idea.
I do not object to this it sounds reasonable to me
Don't debate here. Start a new thread. One called: contest. Save your points.
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