Guys,
I was a back-and forth agnostic, means.. 4 years ago i was an agnostic, then came back as moslem, then 2 years ago an agnostic again, then embraced christianity, and now i’d like to call myself atheist. To think about it, after i left islam >> agnostic >> christian >> atheist, i’ve never been a full time christian. I feel like my own mind keeps challenging this new belief system (christianity). I must admit that what impressed me the most about christianity is the figure of Jesus.
Let me start first with moral law. His moral tenets were and are just truly benevolent, eventhough he’s quite radical in his teachings. without further examination, i embraced christianity. But through some periodic of time, i realise that i’ve never been fond of Old Testament. Even in NT, my most favourite parts are those verses when Jesus speak by himself, a.k.a the Gospels. Moral law becomes my fav. and like many christians, i also read mere christianity, i haven’t finished reading it and i don’t plan to, but i get the point ; in order to have objective moral law, god must exist. When i was still a christian, this was so refreshing though, untill i gave myself time to examine morals in old testament, and i couldn’t help but were in rage. If God is the standard of moral law, all-knowing and all, how could he bent his moral by killing thousands of innocent canaanites just because they’re infidels ??? why’d he need to choose the genocide ? was he incapable of doing another much less evil action if he deems canaanites were harmful ? Not to mention slavery, rape, etc. They’re so loud about chastity, but when subject like massacres, genocides, rape being part of bible brought up on the table, they’ll always go classic like “it’s the context of the era”. All i can sense is that their God (abrahamic religions) is not all-knowing, omnibenevolent whatsoever, what kind of Almighty standar of moral law that goes violate and breach his own standard ? This is menacing for me.
Does any of you go through this moral acrobatic to become atheist ?
Next i wanna speak about Jesus. yes i’m aware that there’re very few evidence that can prove Jesus was ever to exist, but what i want to discuss is his moral tenets & his end of life. I agree with dawkins, that if such person like Jesus ever existed, he’s indeed a great (and radical) moral teacher. and for being so radical in that time about morality where society he was in were so familiar with disgusting book such as OT, it’s understandable that his life ended like socrates ; death sentence. Socrates was also a man of wisdom & knowledge unlike sophists, resolute, and he refused to give in his tenets that made him paid it with his own life. I in the slightest way, consider that probably Jesus was just also a man of wisdom and very knowledgeable of OT, that his radical teaching was deemed as heretic and thus he was nailed. Even if Jesus never existed, i think i’d like to keep his tenets to my own likings just like how i like socrates. Do you guys have any other thoughts about Jesus ?
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If you mean there is no evidence for the existence of either, you are correct. If you mean they are both imaginary religious figures that modern Christians insist actually lived and rose from the dead by means of magic. You are barking mad. Okay, let's go see what you have to say....
I HAVE SOME BAD NEWS FOR YOU:
@ "I was a back-and forth agnostic, means.. 4 years ago i was an agnostic, "
You are still agnostic. Agnostic says nothing at all about what you believe. My assertion is that everyone is agnostic. Agnostc - A = Without Gnostic = Knowledge. I have never seen any Christian belief, God, or gods stand against critical inquiry. You may have been an Agnostic Theist or an Agnostic Atheist but you were not ONLY agnostic. Agnosticism has to do with what you know. Atheism is about what you believe.
RE: "What impressed me the most about christianity is the figure of Jesus."
Why? There is less evidence for the story of Jesus than there is for Muhammad. There is NO evidence what so ever, contemporary to the life of Jesus, that supports his existence. And, we have evidence for 6 other prophets who also did miracles during the life of Jesus that actually were written about. Look for Jesus and like Moses and the rest of the Christian Patriarchs he is not there.
RE: "Let me start first with moral law. His moral tenets were and are just truly benevolent,"
You are deferring to Jesus - right? You can not possibly call him moral.
Luke 14:25 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (This is the Law of God, The old testament. Jesus is God.)
Matthew 5:7 Sermon on the mount: Leave your family, think not of tomorrow, follow me. Do not worry about your wife, children, the rent, food, or clothing. Drop everything and follow me. Why? Because you are more important than a flower and God will provide. BULLSHIT
Matthew 7-6, Do not cast pearls before swine. Swine are nonbelievers and pearls the teachings of Jesus; Jesus was an open bigot.
John 2;15 - "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;" So it is moral to beat people instead of talking to them. Especially when you are the son of god and have the gift of gab. BULLSHIT.
The only way you can possibly get to the idea that "Jesus is moral" is by ignoring 80% of the bible. Remember Jesus is part of the trinity for most Christians so JESUS IS GOD. He is directly responsible for all the death and disaster that occurs in the OT.
AND THIS IS THE SMARTEST THING YOU HAVE SAID! AT LEAST YOU ARE TRYING TO WAKE UP!! KEEP ASKING THE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS. IF THERE IS A GOD, WHAT HAS HE GOT TO FEAR???? "If God is the standard of moral law, all-knowing and all, how could he bent his moral by killing thousands of innocent canaanites just because they’re infidels ??? why’d he need to choose the genocide ? was he incapable of doing another much less evil action if he deems canaanites were harmful ? Not to mention slavery, rape, etc."
If Socrates existed at all, it really doesn't matter. He did not start a religion. No one is worshiping Socrates in fear of eternal damnation or life. It makes no difference if Socrates existed. None at all. Now... if Jesus did not exist,,, well..... ????
@cognistic
so actually i’ve been an agnostic-theist till now i finally an atheist. To think about it, it actually doesnt need a long time for me (or probably anyone) to become an atheist though.Damn when i read again those so called holy books it surprises me that it took me a year to leave it -_-
what i mean by similar is that there’s possibility that jesus died as a martyr. I doubt it though.. now that i have looked more into NT, i agree that his moral teaching is just nothing but a mankind approach - not divine. Hell it doesnt even exist.
Now i have to find a way to slowly retreat from my congregation, i’m like “lost sheep found” for them, too bad they lost me again, lol. If only i wasn’t too rush to be so active in church activities, these people wouldn’t even notice if i’m gone from their church. Now I’m currently constantly dealing with people from my congregation asking : where have you been ?, dont you want to serve our lord ? could you please join christmas services ? etc etc. I am damned. Ugh.
You were an Agnostic Christian. You did not know God existed but you went along with the idea and believed he existed anyway. This is "Pascal's Wager"
@ "Now i have to find a way to slowly retreat from my congregation..."
This is not an easy task. You have so many survival skills that are now connected to religion and your congregation. Prayer relieves your stress. Meeting others in the congregation help to meet your need to be social. You identify love and caring, emotions that belong to you, with an act of magic and a holey being. You think peak experiences have something to do with the Holy Ghost. You have learned a thousand survival techniques to help you to fit in with this group. Moving out of it is like moving to a new country.
Imagine what it is like. You see some lady drop her cane on the street so you pick it up and hand it to her. She says "god bless you" and you cringe. Intellectually you know she is just being nice, so you say "thank you" and move on. But as you walk along you can't help but wonder why people insist on wallowing in delusion.
You see a preacher on the street who is telling you of the Love of Jesus, and in the next breath telling women that they have painted faces and dress like whores. He tells people they will burn in hell unless they think like him. As offensive as his talk is, he sees it as giving you a loving message, and you are a loving person without Jesus so you just leave him to his street preaching and avoid contact.
How do you get through each and every day as an atheist. When do you speak out and when do you hold your tongue. You need a whole new set of survival skills. It's not easy. Joining a site like this can help. Finding communion with other atheists in your area can also help. Take advantage of the massive amounts of YouTube videos. Watch the debates. Richard Carrier, Matt Dillahaunty, Sam Harris, the late Christopher Hitchens, and Bart Ehrman are among my favorites.
As a new atheist you might like something like "non-stamp collector" it's a great place to begin your journey and have a giggle at the same time. Quiz Show is one of my favorite episodes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
Stick around and join the discussions. See you in the funny pages.
The New Testament Jesus said that those who did not follow him would be tortured in hell for eternity. In my subjective assessment, if he actually did say that, it would make him one of the most immoral people who has ever lived.
Jesus also endorsed slavery, instructing slaves to "obey their masters, even the cruel ones." So I have no idea why people think he was an example of moral ascendancy, if he existed then he was anything but moral.
@ OP
We had a user here who once wrote up a the BESTEST summary of the Bible I have ever seen:
rmfr
There is nothing to respect or follow in the teaching of jesus, with the exemption of "love they neighbor".
This jesus character consorted with some tough guys (fishermen, carpenters, laborers, one thief) and a prostitute. IMO he was more of a pimp/crime boss than a prophet. He was unable to hold a job or family, was nothing but a rabble rousing discontent who got whacked by those in power.
Jesus also specifically stated that he followed literally the old laws of Abraham and Moses. And those laws included slavery and other horrors that were sanctioned by god.
Matthew 5:17/18/19
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.
18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…
@ Matthew 5:17-19 (Cherry-Picked, so scream all you want theists)
Just these parts:
(WEB) “I did not come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets, but to fulfill them. But whosoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”
(AV1611-KJV) “I am not come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets, but to fulfill. But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
So yeah, read this way, without all the bullshit, even to this day, as the Religious Absolutist Christians are always saying the Bible is as relevant today as it was over 2000 years ago, with that kind of thinking, we should still be practicing:
Damn it. Just too much to try and dig up...
You get the picture...
As said above, you Religious Absolutists (all religions) scream about us cherry-picking the "bad" parts. Just what the Hell are you Religious Absolutists doing? Sorry <censored> pieces of human <censored> and filth that should be <censored> <censored> from the gene pool.
rmfr
@pixie unicorn
I personally was always atheist, just did not realize I was atheist until I was old enough to properly understand it, I incorrectly called my self agnostic only for a while. (Agnostic actually means without knowledge, or in this case without knowledge of god.) So I went from, agnostic to agnostic/atheist to atheist to now atheist + anti-theist)
So I did not have to do any moral acrobatics to become an atheist, I always knew (as I suspect all of us do) there is no such thing as some sort of universal moral code enforced from on high, as people do what most of us consider highly immoral things all the time. I certainly in my college years as I began to refine my critical thinking skills did have a minor crisis on: "what is the meaning of life" with a bit of reading and thought was able to get to a satisfactory answer on rather quickly.
I certainly think it is likely the "jesus" character in the bible is probably vaguely based on a real person of a very different name that was a well regarded religious leader of early abrahamic religions that ended up being a martyr. And that tale like so many others grew in each retelling until it became legendary and ended up being one of the major basis upon which the various bibles rely. And certainly, like even a scam self help book or seminar, there are going to bits of solid, greater truths that we should all strive towards. Same stuff we already knew and have been talked about in different variations over and over, but these nuggets of "truth" are just used to lend legitimacy and feel good feelings to help complete the overarching "con."
Just like you do not need to spend $2000 dollars on a weekend self help seminar to learn a few basics about how to better yourself that you can also learn from the comfort of your home by borrowing the right book from the library for 2 bucks, you can even ask a librarian to point you to a good book to start with.
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@pixie unicorn
"Does any of you go through this moral acrobatic to become atheist ?"
For myself, it was the opposite. The more I examined my teachings, the more stupid they appeared to be, and I could easily discard almost all of it as pure crap. As I transitioned from being a theist to atheist, things simplified, and got a lot simpler.
For myself, I began with the assumption that all of it was written by men. Then things quickly fell into place.
Pixie, you wrote, “Do you guys have any other thoughts about Jesus ?”
Yes, I do. I think the notion of jesus, real or imagined, is too frequently invoked as a weapon. The word jesus is used in thousands of different ways...to suit the the needs/wants of the person employing it. It, too frequently, is used to elevate one over another or to punish someone who is different than the user of it.
I dislike the word. I dislike the notion. I dislike the way it is used.
@ OP:
Moral acrobatics to become atheist?
No. I have always had only one question that decided my morals for me. It was taught to me by Isaac Asimov: "Will this action, or its inaction, cause any harm to any other living thing?" I got it from his robot laws.
Do you guys have any other thoughts about Jesus?
Yeah. Why can't anybody pronounce it correctly. It is pronounced Hey-soos. I had a childhood friend with that name, so I ought to know how it is pronounced. I just cannot understand why the stupid retarded Religious Absolutist Christians cannot pronounce it correctly. Those dumb ass retards...
***tree shaking its boughs as it rumbles off***
DAVID: "There is nothing to respect or follow in the teaching of jesus, with the exemption of "love they neighbor".
Can't tell you how glad I am to hear that. Chalie Manson and I are having a BBQ tomorrow night. Did I mention we bought the house next to yours. Hope you can make it. Bring Tin Man along with you. Jim Jones, Ted Bundy, and William Bonin have all confirmed. Anyone who is anyone will be there. Bring Your Own Knife.
@Cog Re: BBQ
Hey, I happened to run across Hitler on my way there. Mind if he joins? Oh, and a little caveat to that little "Love thy neighbor" spiel. It's really good advice and all, just DON'T ever let her husband find out. Wow! Some guys get really cranky about that for some reason.... *rolling eyes*....
Hitler is a frigging Christian. Who in the hell wants to listen to him all night? When he showed up at the last party I went to he could not keep his mouth shut.
"I am now, as before, a Catholic, and will always remain so." (Letter to Gereld G Engel 1941)
"For God's will gave men their form, essence, and abilities." (Mein Kampf, footnote 2)
"I believe my conduct at this party is in accordance with the will of the almighty creator,"Mein Kampf, footnote 3)
" I am having the slogan "US WITH GOD" written on all the belt buckles of my soldiers. Bla bla bla...."
"Fuck that German Free Thinker's League. I'm going to outlaw the whole damn thing. Damn Atheists. I am shutting that place down tomorrow and converting into a Christian Church Outreach Center." (Footnote 5, Mein Kampf)
It was a horrible night. You might as well let Ray Comfort tag along.
I was watching the Hitler Quiz Show the other day. Excellent. Hitler Was An Atheist!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP_iNCGH9kY
@cognistic & all
i actually have managed to keep a little distant with people from my congregation since 2 months ago, but my peak is last month and in the next months for sure. As for stress release by praying, before i turn to be atheist i’d been off from doing such thing for quite some time since i didn’t feel significant thing with praying or not praying. i can’t tell them now that i’m an atheist, i cant imagine the level of curiosity & question that will be bombarding me. But, i also cant imagine myself attending sunday service/saturday congregation just to serve my face to them sitting still listen to BS for some time. What a life.
Just FYI, i live in a country where the people in here are so obsessed with religion. They breath religion, hell there’s even a poll that shows youth of my country think the most important thing is religion. Can you guess where i live ? Indonesia.
around 80-90% moslem, and the rest majority is christian. My family members 99.8 % are either conservative or fundamentalist moslems, or i guess some even both/extremist, idk. I get headaches almost all the time here since favourite subjects of the people in here is religion. Even the ones who are educated, well exposed to international environment (e.g work in multinational corporations/engage with expatriates/studied overseas) still quite obsessed with their religion stuff. Heck i even find challenges in dating pool though. Given that most people are so religious here, i’ve found (and met) that mostly men in here expect religious-submissive partner. Some even retreat completely once the religious topic brought up to table because of my response, LoL.
They say i’ll be damned to hell, well it already feels like hell though.
@ pixie unicorn
Do what you must. I have told others to "pretend" and "fake" it if you must.
Anytime you just need to dump a load of BS, we are here for you. Hell, this site has helped me more than anything else. I can understand where you are coming from. I have a whole family of Religious Absolutists that love to gang-bang me at family get-togethers. They abuse the knowledge that the accident that killed my family has also slowed my mind down considerably. They abuse this fact by each one taking turns belittling my atheism before I can get a word in edgewise. Only me mom seems to have tempered her religious beliefs enough to let me be. We have an unspoken rule about no religious discussions. However, the other family members, besides my one uncle who is indifferent does not care either way, just love to make wise cracks about how stupid I am to not believe.
OK. Enough. I feel a rant coming on.
Just know we are here for you to dump whatever you need to dump. Hang in there. And keep yourself safe above all other priorities.
rmfr
@arakish
wow that’s plainly evil to shut you up with a tragedy that happened with you. this also adds another horrible things done by religious people. the apologetics and cognitive dissonance that they commit is appalling though.
By the way i’d like to know your view about our existence. this also apply to all of you guys.
I have this exciting-eerie shift from theist to atheist. what i mean by exciting-eerie is the fact that how magnificent the universe is and how it all works out is just breathtaking..but the fact that i’ve been living my life in a myth-for believing god make me quite perplexed to then become an eerie feeling. i was so consumed with the idea of afterlife, the idea that i’ll have “anothet shot” in another life is somehow quite relieving. But now as i dont believe it at all, as i believe that i’m just a dust whose existence plays a nano part in the universe is disturbing. The way i should live my life, the thought that i’ll be just like one of those pre-historic homo sapiens who will turn to nothing, these keep flooding my mind. Another positive point of view that i decide to see is that since we have short life expectancy and that our existence will come to nothing once we die, this should make us do all the best & maximise every seconds that we still have (sounds cliche i know,lol). But still, those eerie feelings of “become nothing” still bothers me.
Mind to share your thoughts of it ?
@pixie unicorn
In my view our existence is: "complexity." Our sun and our planet are "engines" of different and change in our tiny corner of the universe. In a vast universe of mostly near nothing, a few highly spread out hydrogen atoms nearly inert at near absolute zero in 99.99+ percent of space, we have spaces where enough "matter" got together clumped up with the force of gravity and started the fusion/fission reaction that became "engines" of creating complexity, more complex atomic structures then the near absolute zero basic hydrogen atom. Almost in a run away chain reaction, complexity created more complexity given enough time and interaction along with "fuel" from our sun and our planet, eventually complexity reached the stage of basic life, and that basic life complexity eventually reached highly complex life, which eventually reached human brain complexity where we can begin to become dimly "self aware" and begin to understand our surroundings. Humans also developed language and written word, that like the dna strand allowed ever more complex thought and understanding.
In short I view our (humans and all living things) existence an almost inevitable byproduct of complexity.
Agreed it really is quite amazing.
Makes sense, we have enough self awareness and awareness of death we can easily be consumed by the thought of it.
Very understandable, it is only natural to struggle with it, we never experienced "nothing" with our stream of consciousness, the closest thing is when we are in deep sleep or "knocked out." And even that is not a good match as those stints of no consciousness has an end, and are not really nothing.
We try to quantify death, fear it, and even I still erroneously add the "conscious" sense of loss to death, I almost cannot help it as it is a concept we simply cannot relate to. When you are dead, you won't be sad, happy, hurt, or experience in any way. There is no consequences in death either, we do experience loss in others when they die, and I think many of us somehow with lack of anything else remotely similar tend to transfer those sense of loss to our own death when that is simply not the case. There is no transfer.
One thing that helps me a lot with scary thoughts of death is this:
We are 99% the same as anyone else in the world, sit down next to a random person on an international flight, no matter what color our skin is, our beliefs, our heights, gender, etc we are at least 99% the same. Our collections of trillions upon trillions of cells working in concert is at least 99% the same as the random stranger you sat down next to. Now evolution powered by change and efficiency has deemed that we have a finite lifespan even with the absence of outside forces as the "re start nearly from scratch with dna" is much more efficent than immortality, (and thus nearly all life is based upon a renewal/restart process with only dna information surviving.) In that sense the cycle of life that we are does not end, only a particular instance a collection of cells end, and more importantly our "consciousness" our collection of memories and thoughts ends.
I actually more recently took it a step further, a lot of people talked about "we live on through our children" I say we achieve this as long as there are other humans, even bits and fragments of our conscious lives on. I could get hit by a bus this afternoon, but my thoughts written here will remain, a piece of my consciousness. My particular body in the cycle of life will die, but highly similar bodies to me will live on, starting with my direct blood related family, but really the whole of humanity. Even if humanity gets wiped out, perhaps even the typical domestic house cat survives, a domestic house cat shares ~90 percent of our DNA.
So when we die, we do not become nothing, just our particular consciousness in a very mortal shell comes to an end, we become food for the cycle and they cycle continues on, and like I said even our consciousness can live on in pieces and fragments with us being in memories of others, or written works etc. We are a "cycle" and that cycle is actually very resilient. That is unless tRump and/or Putin decide to turn earth into a nuclear wasteland where almost no life will survive at all. There is something to fear, if you fear "the end."
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@ pixie unicorn Re: "About Our Existence"
I shall live on forever. How? Upon death my body shall be return to the Great Almighty Universe to be transformed into something else. Then that something will live, die, get returned, transformed, repeat for eternity. Thus, physically, I shall live forever.
As for my mind, or soul, well... Not so much. Once my physical body finally gives up, kind of like the adage, "Gives up the ghost," mu mind, or soul, is gone.
Attached Image: This is a graphic I designed as the back cover of my Wild Tangents 3: A Compliation book I am still working on. Takes a long time converting from ODT to XHTML for eBook. Especially 400+ pages, being broke into smaller segments.
Everybody's Fate
Ultimately, I shall live forever. Just transformed many, many, mnay times before the ultimate end.
As for the time I spend here, I just do the best I can no matter how insignificant or if it will ever be remembered.
rmfr