http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-people-are-less-inte...
My wife turned me on to this story several months ago and inasmuch as I completely agree with the findings, I had this nagging feeling that something was being overlooked. After all, there is a small percentage of intelligent people that still believe in a personal god. Then, I found this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Suddenly I realized this is what I had been missing. This is a fascinating piece about how people of lower capabilities tend to overestimate their abilities and people of higher capabilities tend to underestimate. What's particularly interesting though is the rare instance where a person of higher capabilities does overestimate their abilities and I believe this is where the issue lies. This would perfectly explain why there is this small percentage of highly intelligent scientists that remain theists.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin
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That certainly explains why we have so many pseudo-physicists arguing on this site. So, a subset of the Dunning-Kruger effect might be labeled Quantum Woo-Woo Effect.
Precisely, and the argument that intelligent people believe, isn''t an argument.
Just to give some credit: The Dunning-Kruger effect have been mentioned by Travis Hedglin and Nyarlathotep several times before in this forum.
Great that you found out about it and brought it up again. It can't be mentioned too much...
Another psychological effect that people should be aware of is compartmentalization. The ability to hold conflicting beliefs at the same time, switching back and forth. This is what seems to be needed for highly intelligent/well educated people to be able to stay a believer.
It also accounts for the odd smell of lemon juice we get around here from time to time.....
Humility.
1. Lack of it, and
2. Too much of it.
or -
1. "Hell, anyone can do that", and
2. "If I can do it, anyone can."
Old as the hills, gents.
Dudes got a Nobel prize for this stuff?
Oh, it was an Ig Nobel Prize.
Regarding the scientific scholarship apologists, explain them any way you think you need to. At some point they received indoctrination and simply cannot let it go. I don't think we need to make a study of it for yet another paper and/or pending award in academic achievement. People believe what they will and as they do. A man may know everything there is to know about baking but are we lacking understanding of him and, therefore, some sense of academic achievement because he believes in a god?
I find it wholly unrewarding to spend a moment's worth of time asking myself questions about the rationale for another man's theism.
Granted Pitar, when it comes to those I have no affinity for, you raise a prudent point (as always). However, when presented with an argument from someone close to me that suggests a lower cognitive capability is the reason I don't agree with their beliefs, it inspires me to find a more scientific explanation.
i come from a poor background but now i`m middle class, i`m 61 years young and i`m vibrant and you may ask why? it`s because what my saviour jesus christ did for me at the cross, and how he over came death.i have studied quite extensively .both questions and i come away with best thing i ever heard was jesus and his love for humanity.how god loved humanity so much that he sent his son as a sacrifice for our sins.you see in the book of genesis adam and eve fell since they were our first parents the whole human race soon suffered to.we can`t save ourselves because of original sin of our first parents so it to a sinless god to come down in the like of jesus christ to pay for our debt.those who call on the lord will be saved acts 16v31.is your life lacking meaning or vitality blow the dust off your bibles and read the greatest story ever known.then start a personel relationship with lord.the lord expects 2 things from us and that is to love him with all our mind strength and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves,tell me people do you think you can do that? do you want to care for your neighbor?or is this culture and its degrading life choices the path you will go?
skeptical christian: I think I will just ignore you from now on.
@Skeptical
"original sin of our first parents"
Everyone is born innocent. Your original sin idea is one of most evil lies ever inflicted on the human race.
The bible the best story ever written? Are you serious? It's dull, confused and depressing with zero redeeming content. It manages to be violent, corrupting and pornographic without being exciting. Try Gulliver's Travels, Canterbury Tales, Tom Sawyer, Harry Potter, the Hobbit, Jane Eyre, Tom Jones, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Icelandic Sagas, 2001 A Space Odyssey, the Aeneid, the Tale of Genji...
algebe the bible is one love story, if everyone is born innocent then why birth defects? no algebe there is original sin present here thats why where not perfect. that`s why jesus had to come to us to redeem mankind.he is the great salvation it`s through our lord that there is truth and peace.at the end only one thing really matters and that is how are you going to life your life.Will it be for jesus or not and are you willing to accept the consequences for your decision.if you decide against jesus.the lover of your soul.just think at what he did for you nobody will show you in your life time that kind of love he went to severe pain and ridicule for you and me, that should of been me up there on the cross.But because of gods divine plan he took it upon himself.he new that why should the children who came after adam face hell, they were innocent and because of his great love we can reach paradise one day.don`t you think he deserves to be praised and honored for that, i can say i will always be thankful to him.
@Skeptical
"if everyone is born innocent then why birth defects?"
You've hit a new low with that comment. Are you suggesting that babies born with spina bifida, Downs syndrome, defective hearts and so on are somehow being punished for sins? Those babies are innocent victims of genetic accidents or damage during birth. They and their parents deserve sympathy, support and love. Take your original sin and shove it.
That is a incredibly sick thought....There was a study done that suggested that chimps were able to recognize other chimps that had done wrongs to them, and punish them for it(effectively monkey justice). They didn't just lash out in anger, they targeted the specific monkeys who had committed the offenses. If monkeys can recognize the difference between those and those who haven't done wrong why can't god? Aside from that you could have definitely used some stronger language here algebe.
please alegebe i can see that you were hurt by my comment but you used kind of strong language at the end there.but as it turns out thats why because of the sin from our parents, i know it seems harsh but that is the way it goes, because when you read genesis it shows very clearly that adam and eve were made perfect, But once they sinned against gods law they became corrupted. it states very clearly the punishment given for the sin.i`m not saying that the bible is.sure the parents deserve sympathy and love and thats what jesus offers them.he knows all to well about suffering in this life, We can turn to him for condolence ,He said come to me all who are laden and heavy with burden and i will give you rest.Yes alegebe there is one who understands and that is jesus.
@skeptical Christian
"strong language"
Are you serious? You think that was strong language? You say something so incredibly vile about innocent babies born into all kinds of suffering, and you complain about strong language? Yes I'm hurt. Take your original sin, and your bible, and the cross, including the damn nails and the crown of thorns, and shove them all sideways.
why the animus, why do you react with utter disdain when i mention jesus christ.what did jesus christ ever do to you? All that he ever did was save me and give me a chance of the heavenly bliss some day.Can you honestly be against that? don`t you want the best for your life? in naturalism this life is all there is,where doomed in the heat death some day.With christianity this life goes on from mortal to immortality.yes, no matter how we subjectively feel we can`t change the objective situation.that there is a GOD and jesus christ was that god in the flesh.oh for that old rugged cross i died to sin and was made alive.Please reconsider today, For now is the time of salvation none of us know when will be the last moments that we breathe, So time is of the up most importance.
@Skeptical
"why do you react with utter disdain when i mention jesus christ."
I never mentioned Jesus. I reacted with utter disdain to your suggestion that babies with birth defects are somehow being punished for original sin. Are you so addled by your sky fairy myth that you can't see how offensive that is?
for me algebe christianity along with over 2 billion people world wide is not a myth, present day christianity and recent scholarship on the matter virtually agrees that jesus once lived he is a fact not a myth of history.i`m sorry if it sounds offnsive but thats what i interpret from the bible and been taught.you can`t say the color red looks like the color is blue.just because you want it that way.you have to accept in life the way things are.i think where out dispute arises from is that you go and live your life by naturalistic means while I believe in the supernatural state of affairs.it`s not only the basic 5 senses to hear to see to smell to feel etc,but there is such a thing as a spirit of life in a person.i believe in basic christianity as cs lewis prescribed.and i could list to you all my arguments for gods probable existence but it all comes down to faith, Not only the arguments.
@Skeptical
"i think where out dispute arises from is that you go and live your life by naturalistic means while I believe in the supernatural state of affairs."
No. Our dispute arises because I have empathy, and my heart breaks when I see an innocent child afflicted with a severe birth defect. As a father and grandfather I empathize deeply with the parents of such children. Whereas you just keep on spouting your toxic nonsense about original sin.
You really believe that we are all born guilty because of this superstitious crap about Adam and Eve and the apple?
tell me you stated you have a family do they go to church? i love humanity i follow jesus teachings why is it so hard for you to accept jesus christ, is it your arrogance are you comfortable in your job as a teacher you know you may have some knowledge but your arms are to short to box with god.adam and eve were our first parents do you have proof otherwise? yes algebe there is a thing as original sin that`s why the world is in the condition it is.tell me are you so sure that when it`s your time to leave us where will you end up? turn to jesus he will forgive you sinner for all that you said about him,because he has mercy upon your soul.he loves sinners like yourself turn from your evil ways to jesus christ, read the bible.
@Skeptical
I'm not a teacher. I'm a translator. I think in two languages and I have my feet planted in two diametically different cultures. That gives me certain insights into the human condition and the myths that people let into their lives. For many years I lived in a non-Christian country where on the whole people seem to behave better and treat each other more kindly than in the so-called Christian countries I've experienced. They also experienced Christian missionaries a few centuries ago. Their conclusion: the only things that Christians brought us were satan and tobacco.
None of my family go to church. That's because we all have fully functional brains. My little grandchildren still claim to believe in Santa Claus, but they've already seen through the myth of what they call "the old man in the clouds."
"tell me are you so sure that when it`s your time to leave us where will you end up?"
LOL. Are you trying to plant doubt in my mind? How about you? How sure are you really? Is there a circle of hell for arrogant, sanctimonious prigs? What do you know about my "evil ways"? I boxed with god when I was 15. First I knocked out all of its teeth, and then I kicked it into the toxic waste dump. It's never bothered me since.
And I'll say again, your "original sin" idea is the most evil, obnoxious, moronic lie ever perpetrated on the human race. You said that children with birth defects were paying for our original sin.
if there wasn`t evil in the world why the pain and suffering you see every day, the bible says that after adam and eve ate there full from the tree of knowledge that god gave punishment, i`m not saying that the bible is.So how is it evil obnoxious, moronic lie.I`ts a fact of history.Sin has caused all kinds of misery in peoples life, you see we can`t save our human condition that`s why jesus came to earth to remedy the situation.other wise we will die in our sin like he stated in the gospels.you should be glad that there`s a way out for humanity,you should show some gratitude towards GOD, I`m only trying to help here, i`m sorry and i agree with you algebe about what took place in shameful Ireland that`s not the type of christianity that i mean.the real christianity is like what`s taking place over in Haiti now the relief efforts by secular and religious organizations.those 500 people who died so far i pray for there soul because of what the bible says.
"if there wasn`t evil in the world why the pain and suffering you see every day"
Does evil exist? Yes. Does its overly convoluted cousin sin exist? No.
"The bible says that after adam and eve ate there full from the tree of knowledge that god gave punishment"
Symbolic translation: God punished Adam and Eve for pursuing knowledge. Wasent the alternative to that living forever, but not being able to see? Yeah, I'll take knowledge over eternal ignorance.
"m not saying that the bible is."
In all of my 6 months of studying, I never came across one piece of historical, archeological, or otherwise form of proof of anything the bible says. And there is no such thing as a self validating document.
"So how is it evil obnoxious, moronic lie?"
See all of the above.
"I`ts a fact of history.Sin has caused all kinds of misery in peoples life, "
Yes, the imaginary idea of sin has caused people misery. From the Salem Witch Trials to the Crusades, to the Catholic church persecuting other religions for "sinful heresy". And that's not all.
"you see we can`t save our human condition "
I have far more of what you would call "faith" in my fellow human beings than I do Contradiction Man/Sir Sky Fairy.
"that`s why jesus came to earth to remedy the situation"
I also never found any proof of the existaince of Jesus in my study's either.
"other wise we will die in our sin like he stated in the gospels"
I'm pretty sure we die no matter what. I'm also quite certain that the imaginary "sin" has nothing to do with it.
"you should be glad that there`s a way out for humanity"
So you recognize the value of solar system colonization and technological augmentation as well?(Psst, that was a rhetorical question)
"you should show some gratitude towards GOD, "
Should I show some gratitude to the leprechauns in my backyard as well?
"I`m only trying to help here,"
You don't have any chance of converting anyone here. Surely you realize this by now.
"Haiti now the relief efforts by secular and religious organizations"
Note the word "Secular" in there.
Just to make sure you understand the implications of the word secular,:
sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/Submit
adjective
1.
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
@skeptical
"if there wasn`t evil in the world why the pain and suffering you see every day"
Hurricanes, earthquakes and disease cause all kinds of suffering in the world. You'll notice that they're called natural disasters not supernatural disasters. The world is dangerous, not sinful. There's also suffering caused by people, such as wars, crime, and of course, religion. As Sartre said, "Hell is other people." We're aggressive territorial animals, but lacking claws and fangs, we fight with our brains. That makes us more dangerous than any other species. And throughout history we've hurt each other a lot. Religion has played a big part in that right down to recent times. Did you know that Enola Gay was blessed by a Catholic Priest before it flew off to Hiroshima?
The good news is that the world is getting less violent. Despite all the terrorism and mayhem that you see in the headlines, there hasn't been a really big war since the 1950s. We're also getting on top of hunger. Every major country, including the secular and non-Christian ones, has relief systems in place to fly food, medical supplies and personnel to disaster zones. We've seen smallpox eliminated, and polio and malaria will be next, if religious lunatics in Nigeria, etc., don't get in the way.
All of these good things are happening at the same time as global decline in religion. Do you think that's a coincidence?
"what took place in shameful Ireland"
Those things also happened (and continue to happen) in America, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Latin America, Japan.... Don't blame Ireland, blame your church. Thanks a lot, god. I may be a godless, amoral, atheist, but I find child abuse of any kind absolutely unforgiveable.
you and me algebe have a different view point of dangerous and sin, as for natural disasters they were caused due to the fall of humanity, jean paul sarte was avowed atheist who taught nihilism i put no validity to his writings.what did you expected the united states to do with the war going on even longer and millions more of american lives would have been lost.No Algebe america did the right thing in protecting the homeland, remember they started the war with a attack on pearl harbor we lost thousands of americans on december 7th 1941 a day that would go down in infamy.i was in the navy and we have chaplins there as for the priest blessing the gay it sure was the right thing to do.according to the christian faith one has the right to protect one`s homeland.so where do you get the notion that the world is getting more secular with the continent of asia especially china and south and central america includind africa the gospel is growing so i challenge your assumption that the world is getting more secular.who is saying that child abuse is okay, The church loves children it baptizes them into the church it educates them they have scholarships given to them they go on to become our priest lawyers doctors etc etc.it was only 1% of priest who were accused of sexual misconduct a rather small number.it is unfathomable all that the christian churches have done in building housing giving monetary help relocation assistance and i can go on and on, It is right there in the record for everyone to see.God bless the missionary the priest the aid worker the catholic hospitals and universitys the catholic charities saint vincent de paul society, the knights of columbus yes algebe the world is a better place in away because of the fine institutions.
"as for natural disasters they were caused due to the fall of humanity, "
Tornados are a result of two air currents of differing temperature reacting violently with each other. Earthquakes are the result of, amoung other things, plate tectonics. As are volcanic eruptions. Tsunamis, too, are the result of earthquakes. That, my friend, is all scientific. Nothing to do with the bible, or religion, or Sir Sky Fairy for that matter.
"you expected the united states to do with the war going on even longer and millions more of american lives would have been lost.No Algebe america did the right thing in protecting the homeland, remember they started the war with a attack on pearl harbor we lost thousands of americans on december 7th 1941 a day that would go down in infamy.i was in the navy and we have chaplins there as for the priest "
RED HERRING ALERT! RED HERRING ALERT!
And, in my personal opinion, atomic and nuclear weapons are the true scourge of mankind, no matter the reasons behind their creation.
"especially china"
China is recognized as the most atheistic country in the world. Need to check your stats.
"The church loves children"
Ohhh, we know that ALL to well.
"was only 1% of priest who were accused of sexual misconduct "
Really. And were did you get this convenient little statistic from? Perhaps watchman's post could do with a re post.
"It is right there in the record for everyone to see."
I've checked the records for America. Doesn't line up with your glorification.
"God bless the missionary the priest the aid worker the catholic hospitals"
You lost me at "God bless".
" And god bless Americas......secular society?"
-JonTron
"the world is a better place in away because of the fine institutions."
And it will become even better once separation of church and state and secularism become the norm.
"where do you get the notion that the world is getting more secular"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-zuckerman/religion-declining-secula_b...
"it was only 1% of priest who were accused of sexual misconduct"
Did the pope tell you that?
"who is saying that child abuse is okay,"
Successive popes, by their silence. Various cardinals, archbishops and bishops, by their inaction, and by their actions in hiding/transferring guilty priests. By extension, everyone in your church. And it looks like the cases reported so far are just the tip of a giant iceberg that's going to sink your church.
"as for the priest blessing the gay it sure was the right thing to do"
I never heard anyone say that before. Even the priest himself regretted it. He went to Hiroshima in the 1980s and tried to apologize, but the locals didn't want anything to do with him. I'm surprised to hear an avowed Christian quoting those numbers about lives lost/saved. I thought every life was precious. Was god on your side?
"remember they started the war with a attack on pearl harbor"
Do you really think World War II was that simple? Read some history about colonization in Asia, and the Perry Expedition of 1864.
"God bless the missionary the priest the aid worker the catholic hospitals and universitys the catholic charitiess"
Any good they've done is far outweighed just by the harm caused by your church's policy on contraception and condoms. Is it a coincidence that countries where your church is strong tend to be economic basket cases with corrupt, dictatorial governments?
Skeptical Christian,
When I was fifteen I was diagnosed with a metabolic disorder. I lived for three months with a faulty metabolism that was releasing poisons into my blood and slowly killing me. I was searching for god at the time, starting with the Catholics and Methodists before eventually moving on to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. When the doctors told me that I would have to administer a hormone via syringe into subcutaneous tissue every day for the rest of my life in order to not die, I didn't think twice.
So this is my question: If you found out you had a disease that required you to inject yourself with a needle up to four times a day would you go against god's plan and stay alive or would you trust in god and die?
dear kataclismic so to hear about that disorder but me as a christian was never told not to go to the doctor, i now at 61 years old have diabetes so i know all about testing my self and being sure to take my medicine.God uses doctors in fact doctors take an oath to uphold and sustain life.It comes down not to are you going to obey god or not,of course God wants you to always be obedient to him i trust in God working through my health care specialist , that i will have the proper treatment.So it does not come down to the two alternatives that you describe.That sounds more like a cult then basic christianity.i hope you feel okay and my prays go out to you.
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