Hello everyone, I would like to thank the people who have been patient with me as I try my best to answer some of the hardest questions I've ever been asked. It's extremely hard to intellectualize spiritual matters. Personally this is completely out of character for me. As when I was agnostic I could care less, and as the case with most believers is, we have found the one answer that works, so we really don't need anymore answers lol. We just go where we are led. Easy as pie. I never came here to preach to anyone or proselytize. Like I've said multiple times, I gain nothing from what anyone believes in or not. But, if God does exist? Then I'm curious to know, by what other means do you think will it have to reach you? Angel's in the presence of God, chose to go and do whatever they wanted. Humans in God's presence, chose to sever the connection and go do whatever they wanted, no matter the consequences. So, for some reason God knows the only way it will work is to not force it's presence on us but rather let us search our hearts for what we really want. Most of us will struggle with the order that God has placed on truth. And I don't have the ability to command God to give you the evidence that you require for belief, (as if sustainable life in an unimaginable universe isn't enough)? But, I will do my best to answer to the best of my humble ability. If anything, I've learned more in just a few posts from you fine people than I ever could from decades of going to a religion. So thank you again for your patience and willingness with me. Remember, if you truly want to know God? All humans can do is point to God, it's up to you to go to make "the jump." I've learned that life isn't in the answers, as much as it is in the quality of the questions. So let's have some fun.
I haven't been able to stop thinking about the summary of it all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only two options of possiblity. Either there is a mind behind this creation or there is not. Right? There is nothing else. No middle ground here. So if there is a mind behind this creation? Then it's on the individual to seek and understand it. Not the other way around. Looking outward and at others will never work if the inward connection is not established. Correct?
If there is no mind behind it? Then it's all completely random and this is just what protoplasm does at this temperature. With no mind to observe it. Leading to believe that existence has no purpose. There is no need for this conversation either.
Did I miss anything?
Ps @Sheldon I just found out a week or two ago, that they made a TV show about Sheldon's younger years and I have been watching some of it and it's hilarious. I think of you the whole time lol. Do you watch it? I would literally die if someday we get to hang out and you actually turn out to be Sheldon for real hahaahahahhaha that would be great : )
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Great Hope: "intellectualize spiritual matters." No! It is not possible to intellectualize spiritual matters without sounding like a bumbling fool. It all boils down to 'ONE' and only 'ONE' position. "I can not explain it in any other way, THEREFORE, spiritual!" There isn't even a working definition of the word "spiritual" unless of course you substitute "I don't know."
JUST PROVED MY POINT:
"But, if God does exist? Then I'm curious to know, by what other means do you think will it have to reach you? (OR - I CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHER POSSIBLE WAY GOD COULD REACH YOU, THEREFORE, SPIRITUAL.) Horseshit. God could just show up for dinner. It's frigging God. Is your god so damn stupid he can not figure out how to reach people? Seriously?
SEVERING CONNECTIONS BY ANGELS AND PEOPLE:
1. Prove there is a connection. *Ignorant assertion that completely lacks evidence.
2. Prove the existence of angels. *Ignorant assertion that completely lacks evidence.
MORE IGNORANT ASSERTIONS WITH NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER!
"God knows the only way it will work is to not force it's presence on us but rather let us search our hearts for what we really want."
" Most of us will struggle with the order that God has placed on truth. "
HUMBLE?
Get a fucking grip. You have just asserted that you know the answer to life, the universe, and everything. You know God's mind and his reasons behind all his actions. You call that "humble." Seriously, only an inmate in a Psych Ward would make such glaringly hypocritical comments. Have you lost your mind?
POINT TO GOD MY ASS: YOU HAVE POINTED TO NOTHING!
"All humans can do is point to God, it's up to you to go to make "the jump." Still waiting for the facts and evidence that can lead us to this God of yours. YOU ARE POINTING AT NOTHING! Please prove otherwise.
EITHER A GOD EXISTS OR A GOD DOES NOT EXIST: If you are using God for Mind, okay. Either a god exists or it does not exist. I think we are all fine with that.
WAHT? NO MIDDLE GROUND? YOU HAVE ASSERTED TWO PROPOSITIONS THAT ARE UNRELATED TO ONE ANOTHER. COMMON SENSE SAYS YOU MUST TAKE THEM 'ONE AT A TIME'
1. Proposition One: "God exists. " Okay, prove it. If you can not prove it, there is no reason to believe this proposition. I, in fact, do not believe you as you have provided no facts or evidence. This in no way implies that there is no god. Only that I do not believe your claim. If you tell me the number of stars are even and I tell you that I do not believe you, I am not asserting they are odd. You have not provided evidence for your claim and I do not believe you. We are still left with "The number of stars are odd or even." We are still left with God exists or it does not exist. You must prove your claim. Then logical position is not to believe any claim until it is proved.
2. Proposition Two: "God does not exist." Can you prove that? How do you prove that something which does not exist, does not exist. Actually, science does this all the time. A lack of evidence is evidence for a lack of existence.
Bear Analogy:
A bear is said to live in a cave and I want to find out if it is true. I set traps in front of the cave but never catch a bear. I bait the cave with food but the food is never eaten and just rots. I look for bear prints but none are to be found. I yell into the cave and only my own echo comes out. I send a small sheep into the cave and it comes out later unharmed. I put a video camera on the cave and watch it for 6 months, I see nothing. We can pretty much conclude there is no bear in the cave, and if there is a bear, it's dead and gone. We have been watching the Religious caves of the world for 7000 years and have seen not a frigging damn thing. NOTHING! The only logical conclusion is that there is probably not a bear in the cave.
RANDOM:
Do you actually sit up nights and think of this shit? Did you really think this is a dichotomy? Really?
"If there is no mind behind it? Then it's all completely random." NO! There is nothing random about the formation of a snowflake, it is a natural occurrence. Randomness is not a property of anything. Things are made or they occur naturally. We have very good examples of both. Where in the hell do you come up with randomness. Quantum Physics perhaps?
THE MIND BEHIND CREATION:
"So if there is a mind behind this creation? Then it's on the individual to seek and understand it. Not the other way around."
This is quite literally one of the stupidest assertions I have ever heard. If a Damascus Road experience was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for the rest of us. We aren't even killing Christians. Do we, like Paul, have to kill Christians before we are worthy? If you have a frigging all powerful mind behind everything and controlling everything, why is it so frigging incompetent that it can not let itself be known to the world,. It's our responsibility? "IN YOUR FRIGGING EYE!" Not in a million years. It is not our fault your God is an idiot who completely lacks social skills.
"NO NEED FOR THIS CONVERSATION."
As enlightening as it as been with one obtuse assertion after another, I think we have found a point of agreement.
DID YOU MISS ANYTHING?
What in the hell do you imagine you got right? You simply made unsubstantiated assertions and basically missed everything in front of your face because you live in a fantasy world. You have to OPEN YOUR EYES, if you don't want to miss anything,.
A CLOSING NOTE:
You have been on this site long enough to have every one of your inane assertions debunked 10 times over, and now you just repeat them. You know, the definition of insanity is "DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT."
Firstly I feel your pain, and I agree wholeheartedly with your post.
If the author of the thread "knows" a deity exists then all he has to do isvoffer a cogent explanation and demonstrate objective evidence for it.
He can do neither as we have seen here yet again, and yet again we see a theist who's failed to properly evidence his belief, assert that this is somehow the fault of those who don't share that belief.
He could try praying to his deity to show me it exists. If I remain an atheist then either his deity doesn't exist, or it wants me to remain an atheist.
Either way the burden of proof remains his. I mean look at all deities he doesn't believe are real and it's the same number as me with just one exception. So what evidence can he offer for this one that all the others can't, because I'm not seeing it in anything any religious apologist has offered.
Hello!
I want to start off saying that sometimes religious debates get heated and that I don't mean any of my statements to be disrespectful. Just not my MO, I prefer to be as respectful as possible. So here goes my responses!
"Either there is a mind behind this creation or there is not. Right? There is nothing else."
I agree. Either there is an intelligence behind the universe or there isn't.
"So if there is a mind behind this creation? Then it's on the individual to seek and understand it. Not the other way around. Looking outward and at others will never work if the inward connection is not established. Correct?"
I don't agree. If there is some intelligence out there, then I can see it having on of three viewpoints:
It wants us to find it: If this is true, it makes sense for this intelligence to provide clear evidence of it's existence (popping in to say hello, for example)
It does not want us to find it: In which case it will attempt to hide its presence.
It does not care whether it is found.
In the first case, seeking it out is unnecessary, it will make itself known if it wants to. If I want someone to find me, I'mma make some noise.
In the last two cases, in one of those, seeking it out is against its wishes. If the being doesn't make itself known to me, I would assume it doesn't want to be discovered and respect its wishes to stay concealed.
"If there is no mind behind it? Then it's all completely random and this is just what protoplasm does at this temperature. With no mind to observe it. Leading to believe that existence has no purpose. There is no need for this conversation either."
I would say that in order for a thing to have purpose, there should be an intelligence behind it to assign a purpose. Since I don't agree that there is an intelligence behind humanity's creation, I don't believe there is some objective overriding purpose behind our existence.
But I'm intelligent (well, debateable, but intelligent enough). I can assign purpose to my own life. I strive to be happy, to advance society in some small way, to bring joy to the people around me, and minimize the harm I cause because this is the only life we have and what I do here matters.
There is a need for this conversation. It was important enough to you to post it and that indicates there you have a need for this conversation.
Just my two cents!
@ TM
Ranch Dressing Stat. Oh wait...make that blue cheese.
@ Great Hope
Are you serious? I've seen tastier waffle mix at McDonalds. It's extremely hard to intellectualize spiritual matters.
It is ridiculous to intellectualise fairy tales, mental process, bagels or imaginary friends. That's it. I end my comment here.
@Old Man Re: "Ranch Dressing Stat. Oh wait...make that blue cheese."
Mmmmm.... Yes, blue cheese dressing is great, especially on a big chunk of Iceberg lettuce wedge.... *drooooool*....
@ Tin-Man Re: "Blue Cheese Dressing"
Also try mixing a little bit of some good Italian dressing with it. Mmm...
rmfr
Hey there, GH! Long time no see. How ya been?
There is one thing that stood out to me overall in your OP that I would like to address real quick. You said...
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only two options of possiblity. Either there is a mind behind this creation or there is not. Right? There is nothing else." Along with...
"So if there is a mind behind this creation? Then it's on the individual to seek and understand it."
Here is my personal perspective on that. For the sake of this discussion, let us pretend for a moment there may actually be some sort of "higher mind" behind the creation of everything we know. Now, keep in mind, we would be talking about an entity that would be vast enough to create the entire universe as we know it, correct? Meaning the "size" of this being would be way beyond our limited scope of imagination. And at the same time, by comparison, this little planet of ours alone would barely rate as a single atom in relation to the size of our own body. And with that being said, any individual human being on this planet would be multiple scales even SMALLER. Therefore, imagine yourself trying to pinpoint any individual atom (our planet) in your own body (the universe). And then imagine trying to single out any individual "human" on that atom-sized "planet". Getting the picture here?
Okay, so with that in mind, even IF (big, big, big "IF") some type of "mind" created our universe, my bet would be that it is very unlikely it even knows we exist. And any attempt to "communicate" with it on an individual level would make about as much sense as trying communicate with an astronaut on the moon by standing on your front porch and yelling at him. And even if it did somehow know we exist, why would/should it give a single drop of concern about us. In the grand scheme of things we would be less than a mosquito buzzing around the front porch light. To that being, the few hundred thousand years humans have been around would likely be no more than the blink of an eye. How do you propose we would/could ever "communicate" with something like that? How can people be so arrogant (and delusional) to believe that such a being like that "communicates" with them on a personal level?
But, like I said, though, that type of being would be a really big "IF". So even IF that type of being does actually somehow exist, I am certainly not going to waste my time "searching" for it and hoping it will "fill my heart with love and peace." Personally, I have better things to do with my time, and I am quite competent in filling my own heart with love and peace without the aid of some imaginary entity. Just something to think about, big guy. Hope you are doing well.
@TinMan
Hey buddy, I've missed our conversations. I'm doing well and hope you are as well. Because we humans have limits, and we don't know the "ending" we can only speculate on what's really going on with all of this. From my want to know, if there is a Creator behind this? It has led to undeniable experiences that has opened me up to awe and wonder. Now if a Creator doesn't exist? Then I have absolutely no idea, how any of those experiences have happened. And sure it could be one of the most powerful delusions, that has provided unimaginable results, maybe being the ultimate goal in the law of attraction? I still don't know for certain. I think that's what makes it fun and exciting. When I cross the threshold of death. It will be so incredible if it was really true. And if it was just an amazing delusion? I won't even find out.
Now as far as the size of God goes. You're right, it's hard to wrap the mind around the relativity. So while we are entertaining God's existence. That means it's the "all in all" when we were formed, we were just a shell until the breath of life was introduced. It appears that God is in the breath as God would be life itself. We might get caught up in only the physical left brain logic to see there is vastly more unexplored to life and the inward universe of the heart, mind, and soul. Hence the lack of "objective evidence". I really would like someone on the planet to have anything that could intellectualize such things. But they seem to be polar opposites. Yet to only cling to one side or the other could prove unbalancing, causing blind spots.
I have mentioned before that I have an eccentric mind. And have a lot off fun diving in to belief. I really wish that I could devote all of my time to a season of life, to writing. With all that goes on with me, I only get to give my friends here a trillionth of a fraction of what God has done with my internal universe. Text seems so primitive and slow. Nevertheless, I love our conversations about what we don't know but time will tell. I can hardly keep my eyes open right now. I'll come back in a couple hours. Thanks for your kindness TinMan as always.
PROVED CORRECT AGAIN - WHY DON'T YOU STOP DOING THIS - "ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE FALLACY"
"Now if a Creator doesn't exist? Then I have absolutely no idea, how any of those experiences have happened.
TRANSLATION: "I have absolutely no idea how any of those experiences happen (I can not explain them.) THEREFORE - MAGICAL CREATOR MAN IN THE SKY. STOP! STOP MAKING IGNORANT STATEMENTS.
MORE INANE ASSERTIONS WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER:
1. " when we were formed, we were just a shell until the breath of life was introduced. :
2. "the ultimate goal in the law of attraction? " AS IF SUCH A LAW ACTUALLY EXISTS.
3. "God would be life itself." PROVE IT!
4. "I really would like someone on the planet to have anything that could intellectualize such things. But they seem to be polar opposites." NO - THEY ARE NOT OPPOSITE. CAN YOU NOT READ ENGLISH? THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE YOUR INANE ASSERTIONS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN PEOPLE BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE.
5. "I have an eccentric mind." EXCENTRIC: unconventional, uncommon, abnormal, WRONG AGAIN;. Your mind is void of logic and rationality just like every other believer that imagines they are going to enter the site and convert the evil atheists. Your posts are void of logic, smothered in arrogance and inane assertion. There is nothing eccentric about this.
6. I'll come back in a couple hours. (FUCK!)
6} Fuck!
LOL
@cog,
I can't fathom how you make such effort to answer Great Hope.
@Great Hope,
You have nothing to intellectualize, and what you have can't be thought in that way. I'm sorry to tell you that, but you have offered nothing worth of debate here.
I generally get in one or two posts early on and then just give up and leave the rest to Sheldon, Sapporo , Nyarlathotep, or Logic... some others, You won;t see me in those 300 comment posts unless I am just playing about. It only takes a couple of posts to address the issue at hand and then it is either way off topic, irrelevant, or the OP has completely expressed his or her inability to argue honestly.... Such as the case with our friend GH. One can lead the ignorant to knowledge but can not make them think.
I am on the same policy with you then... It becomes very rapidly tedious and we talk about the same thigs over and over.
"It's extremely hard to intellectualize spiritual matters."
Its a defining characteristic of all fictional ideas that there is no intellectual explanation for them.
You certainly do come here to preach and proselytize, as you have done again in that post, what a risible denial.
There is no objective evidence for any deity, so it's pointless to ask "how it could reach us if it wasn't fictional." What objective evidence can you demonstrate it exists at all?
"found the one answer that works, so we really don't need anymore answers"
No theists have any answers or they could demonstrate the validity of them, and they can't. As for not looking for any other answers that is the very definition of closed minded.
"All humans can do is point to God, it's up to you to go to make "the jump." "
So that's not proselytizing I suppose? Jesus but you're funny.
"only two options of possiblity. Either there is a mind behind this creation or there is not. "
What creation? As usual you're starting with a known common logical fallacy called begging the question. To show either of those are 'possibilities' would require you evidence a creation first.
"Did I miss anything?"
You miss everything, and will continue to do so as long as you fail to understand claims require evidence, not mere assertions. Or that claiming to want debate after you've just stated you're not looking for any answers is asinine.
My avatar is meant as irony, as I've stated before.
Great Hope. Been awhile. How's it hanging?
OK. Give it a shot. I have seen anyone do it.
I don't know. Ring my doorbell and introduce itself. Answer my questions I shall ask it. Submit itself to 1,000,001 lab experiments to prove it true.
Ah, the free will thing. If this intelligence wants us to find it, then why does it remain in hiding? This intelligence created the universe, then it would know how to make itself known to everyone. But it does not. Why?
Then it would know how to make itself known. And it would not use those obsolete, irrelevant, barbaric, savage, abhorrent, offensive, and unsubstantiated immoral Bronze and Iron Age religious texts.
Yes, there are only two options: Yes||No, On||Off, True||False, Is||Is Not.
"There is nothing else. No middle ground here." Absolutely correct.
And no. It is NOT on the individual to seek and understand it. If it wants to be known, It should make itself known. Not the other way around.
I exist. Right? If I want to make myself known to others, what would I do to make that a possibility? If I choose to remain hidden, then how would anyone else know I exist? Think Critically about that.
Yes, you missed everything. Existence just is. Existence itself has no purpose. Purpose is what you make of your existence. Cannot be made any simpler. Think Critically about that.
rmfr
@arakish
Hello my leafy lovin freind. I dwell on our conversations much when I take a break. Your posts make me think about what could I say to the younger me when I was in so much pain I could barely breathe. The only thing I can ever come up is, the more it hurts, means the more you fearlessly Loved unconditionally. And that is worth more than anything on the planet. So cheers mate. Wear that pain like a badge of honor! "In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you." Buddah saying that I came across that helped me a little. Life can sure throw a punch sometimes, but like Rocky said "
It is a very mean and nasty place and it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't how hard you hit; it's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward." I love you bro and I hope the best for you.
This stood out to me as I read your post.
"If it wants to be known, It should make itself known. Not the other way around."
Does not everyone on the planet have some questions or concerns and or belief or disbelief in it, with many avenues and facets? Sounds like God is known by all. The choice to engage in faith by design, or to deny it completely, will always be the debate.
@ Great Hope
One thing really stuck out like a sore thumb.
In actuality, I would re-word this to say, "Sounds like God is known about by most." Mainly due to the fact that not all "know" God, but actually may "know about" God. Then there are some indigenous "indian" tribes about the world that still know NOTHING about your God, or any God for that fact. To them, "nature" is all there is.
Exactly like "life" and "existence." Life just is. Existence just is. "Life" and "Existence" have no purpose other than what you make of it.
Wrong. There are only two avenues of belief: faith or facts.
Or another way to put it: The only two avenues of belief are to believe the lies, or follow the truth.
Perhaps offensive, but it should be because it is the truth: “Definition of ALL Religions: Knowing the facts, seeing the facts, but still believing the lies.” — Arakish. Something I said over 40 years ago in a high school philosophy/debate class.
rmfr
I wouldn't have phrased it quite that way, but I largely agree with the sentiment of that statement. It seems a rather ridiculous view on the surface---even to me---but this is the one that has the evidence on its side.
Is this world view wrong? Probably; but it works like a champ!
Wow, thank you all for such fast responses. Bear with me as I don't have the time to answer everyone. And as stated, I don't have any satisfactory answers\evidence anyways. No one will. Thank you for making that pertinent. Only God coming over to have dinner on a Tuesday night to have blue cheese lettuce wedges and medium sauce buffalo wings. Will be satisfactory lol. Duly noted.
@Great Hope Yes, he would have to show up in some fashion before I begin to change my mind. He doesn't have to have buffalo wings, chicken tenders will do nicely.
Honestly, "I feel like he exists" will never sway me. If you have had some personal experience that convinced you, great. Until I have something similar, you have to admit that my position of disbelief is reasonable.
@Skeptical Kevin
Yes I completely understand the position of disbelief and think it's quite reasonable. I used to not like the way it works so much that I was willing to kill myself. Not really sad or anything I just did everything I wanted to do and was over it all. Didn't really care to continue, nothing was as good as everyone places it to be kind of thing. So yes, it was in those moments when I realized that God really does exist. Because there is literally nothing else. So as an extremist, I engaged in belief, that led me to the order of truth (that I totally had backwards). When I connected with that, I was led into all sorts of experiences that are nearly impossible to deny that this connection (whatever it is) is working. My life has never been the same since. So you see, we don't need to "know" all the answers. We just need 1 question. If God exists? Would I want to know? Because if you do, then by default. We must do it by it's design. And I can totally relate to everyone that doesn't like this order lol. You're right about the Chicken tenders, they sound delightful right now. @old man shouts, should I pick you up some ranch at the store or would blue cheese dressing suffice for our lettuce wedges?
We get an awful lot of theists on here, who like you seem to think that being dissatisfied with reality justifies deluding themselves that a deity exists, and that this deity has a plan that is entirely created for the benefit of one species of great ape that evolved a 150k years or so.
The idea is too risible to justify debate, even before we acknowledge there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any of it.
"Yes I completely understand the position of disbelief and think it's quite reasonable."
Come on now GH, neither of those claims is remotely true. Your endless assertions about atheism show in this very thread you don't understand it at all, and why would you claim to be holding an opposing position (theism) to one (atheism) you here claim to find reasonable ? That's absurdly silly...
Great Hope: "Only God coming over to have dinner on a Tuesday night to have blue cheese lettuce wedges and medium sauce buffalo wings."
Medium sauce? Uhh... Then you ain't never had my Buffalo Wings. For me, they ain't Buffalo Wings unless they were made with "nuclear" sauce. Sauce so hot it burns so bad you just can't stop eating them. Then when you are finished, you have to change clothes due to being soaked in sweat from eating my Buffalo Wings.
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "For me, they ain't Buffalo Wings unless they were made with "nuclear" sauce."
Hell yeah! I'm in! I'll even bring my own celery sticks. Can't have hot wings without celery.
Hey, GH! Time to step up your game a notch or two and leave that medium stuff at the kiddie table. And feel free to invite Jesus. If he is man enough to show, then I'm sure we will all have much to discuss in between sweat and tears... *chuckle*...
@arakish
Well medium is my go to with extra sauce. Just because it's delightful and on the regular. But I eat all manner of wings. The really hot ones are good and fun and release tons of endorphins. I just don't do them all the time. Where do you get your nuclear sauce from? I would like to try it and tell you if I even break a sweat lol?
@Great hope
hmmmmm...
HMMMmmmmm....
HMMMMMMMMMMMmmm!
Does all this leading, lack of answers, searching our hearts (really you look to your heart for answers?) and making "the jump", does that ever worry you? Ring any alarm bells? You said you were agnostic once, what about then?
I would like to correct your wrong. Religion likes to make it easy, binary, yes and no, right and wrong. Nature very rarely deals in binary and simple two option scenarios. Even something as simple as "male" and "female" will have exceptions to the "rule" (even if is quite rare.)
Also: you spelled possibility wrong, not really a big deal just kind of humorous to me to get that word in particular spelled wrong.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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@LogicFTW
Okay, let's just say that it's possible to have the complete understanding of God and all creation within a human mind. And that person was able to summarize it all into text and post it on a forum. Would that leave you much of a hearts desire to choose love for what we already don't like? The debate would be over and your choice rendered down to non-existent. I didn't realize it when I wrote the op. But it's funny now, how intellectualizing the spiritual is a trick statement. Yet it's exactly what athiesm demands from believers. And already, several comments have established that it is not a pozzibility. Please tell me that you can see that y'all are asking me for more than my ex-wife did lol. Athiesm is asking for special treatment to go outside of design to get the choice removed. Love by definition must be freely given. If you can't choose to love God through faith? You will never choose to love in it's presence.
Atheism demands nothing from anyone, it is simply the lack or absence of belief in a deity or deities. Nor has anyone asked you for anything, you came to us to proselytise, as you did the last time. It's as if you think we won't notice you make endless claims, can evidence none of them, then try to pretend it is atheists here demanding answers when they point this out.
There is no design either, as there is no evidence for it, and you certainly can't offer a shred of evidence for it, you have even admitted as much in this thread. Nor can you or anybody else demonstrate any evidence for a deity, and faith is worthless, as one could use it to believe in Thor or Apollo, just as easily as Allah or Yahweh, and one would be no more or less valid than the other.
You are also a liar I'm sorry to say, as you are now proselytising by preaching full tilt at us here..." If you can't choose to love God through faith? You will never choose to love in it's presence."
Alright...this is where I have to say something. I've read the whole thread, so far, and figured that, while you're deluded, at least you're not entirely out of your tree...
Then, I read this:
"Athiesm is asking for special treatment to go outside of design to get the choice removed."
That's not even remotely correct and is, to be honest, the worst thing I've read in this entire thread full of bad things. Atheism isn't asking for anything. Nothing at all. Most atheists go through their daily lives and don't think about religion at all. It's only when someone makes a god-claim that we ask for anything and that thing we ask for is not special treatment. There are no special pleadings or other shenanigans here.
The only thing we ask for is:
Evidence.
That's all. Evidence. Real, demonstrable, tangible, testable, falsifiable, honest to goodness EVIDENCE. We don't want, or need, anything that is not demonstrable, tangible, testable, or falsifiable and when/if you try to hand us that malarkey, we're going to call you on it.
"I think that guy MUST have robbed that liquor store!"
"Why?"
"Because his name is Bob!"
Bullshit.
And that's roughly equivalent to the "evidence" we get from theists who come around making their god-claims, when we ask for it.
"God is real!"
"Why do you say that?"
"Because the bible says so!"
"And why is the bible a reliable source?"
"Because it's the word of god!"
"How do you know that?"
"Because it says so in the bible!"
or
"God is real!"
"Why do you say that?"
"Because I look at all of the things and I see that only god could have created all of the things!"
"How do you know it must have been a god?"
"How else could all of the things be here?"
or
"God is real!"
"Why do you say that?"
"Because I feel him in my heart!"
"How do you know that's god you feel in your heart?"
"Because he made me feel it!"
"How do you know it's god that made you feel that?"
"Because why else would I feel him in my heart?"
"Nuclear buffalo wings backing up on you?"
"You're an asshole!"
It's all circular reasoning and argument from ignorance with theists...And this crap generally only comes up when YOU THEISTS try to force your god-claims on atheists. I don't know a single atheist who walks around yelling "god doesn't exist, prove me wrong!!" (though it may happen...I just haven't seen/heard of it).
We don't ask for anything but evidence, dude...And you have none. No theist does. If any theist did have real evidence, guess what, Sparky; There wouldn't be many atheists in the world.
Really, man...you're embarrassing yourself here.
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