There are many things you cannot do if your judgement is impaired.
You can't operate a motor vehicle.
You can't be in charge of children.
You can't operate machinery.
You can't legally do anything that is dangerous or will endanger you or anyone else.
And it isn't limited to a current state. Background checks are made to see if you have a history of being impaired that result in being denied jobs or access to certain people, places, and travel.
Having a clear SANE mind is essential to functioning.
Why do we allow people that obviously have impaired judgement vote, teach, hold office and other important even dangerous jobs?
If you believe in any conspiracy theory without a shred of evidence is impaired judgement. It illustrates the lack of judgement, the lack to think critically and logically.
Believing in a deity is impaired judgement.
For example, if a law enforcement officer just started arresting people because he/she guessed that the individuals they arrested would commit a crime sometime in the future, we would naturally consider that person mentally unfit to serve in that capacity. He/she might even shoot someone on a whim rather than having any factual justification to do so.
God believers, conspiracy theorists are no different. They only have a guess that there is a god, yet they impose laws, brainwash children, even arrest people based on that guess.
They vote for people that take that "leap of faith" to operate civic offices that rule over our lives.
Society should take a long look at this situation and come up with a sane and solid plan to prevent people with impaired judgement from having any control over the society.
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I would like to agree with all that but unfortunately it oversimplifies. It raises two points. One point is that two groups differ.
"God believers, conspiracy theorists are no different"
In many respects but they differ in two important ways. Unlike conspiracy theory, belief in god is usually motivated by superstition, partly if not entirely. Secondly, religion is usually indoctrinated into a child almost from birth by their most trusted protectors, such as parents, relatives and teachers.
Both religionists and conspiracy theorists think they are being reasonable, rational and analytical. However, both believer types have personnel with various motives from being honestly devout to a cynical wish to control or criminal wish to exploit. Motives vary from the JW at your front door saving your immortal soul to pedophile priests. Mental illness is sometimes a factor with both types of believer, but a minority.
Both are motivated by strong beliefs but there is more chance of shaking conspiracy beliefs as they are only afraid of being wrong and looking foolish. That is due to being publicly over-invested in a particular theory. Their reputation and self-esteem is at risk. Religionists defend what they have been taught to think of as "sacred". They fear losing faith itself. They not only have the reputation and self-esteem problem of over-investment in falacy, but they think that having religious faith is at their core. Religionists are also likely to pay a higher emotional price if they leave the group or tribe.
The second point is their right to vote. They are not allowed to vote. In a free democracy they have that right. Voting is not about getting the right leadership or the best policies. It is about keeping the peace. Brexit and Trump are terrible mistakes but nothing that cannot be rectified as long as peaceful, law abiding society is maintained. Much harder in countries where democracy, freedom of speech and expression or compromise aren't sufficiently valued, such as Syria, Lybia, Afghanistan, Turkey or (if certain policies aren't changed) potentially even Spain where the independence of Catalonia isn't considered by central government to be a legal or politically acceptable aim.
I think Mykcob's post hits one nail on the head. There is always a danger in being mistaken and especially dangerous is being over-invested in falacy. Perhaps that's why it is better to be an apathist than an atheist?
How do you go about rectifying these discrepancies that you state? people are allowed to vote nobody that I know including myself here is screened for any conspiracy or mental illness. That would be injecting limits on the constitution itself. you see in north Carolina and some other parts of the USA that there having a hard time getting voter verification cards implemented. The courts say that the people responsible for bringing this idea up are in violation on the voters bill of rights. So you see Myckob it isn`t so simple as just suing in a court case some times it goes all the way to that states supreme court or to the supreme court in Washington DC. Who decide against enacting reforms. Why don`t you write or call your local congressmen or representative about these matters.
Haha devout
I was merely pointing out that believe in something that there absolutely no proof of is impaired judgment. That is the point of the thread. I don't really think nor want any form of voter restriction, but I do want people to think and recognize that believing in a god without having any REAL proof of which is not sane or displaying good judgment. Even worse is trying to get other people to do so shows a particularly harmful form of irresponsibility even a crime if it is forced or coerced.
Every day on this forum or somewhere in my life there is someone trying to convert me or someone near me into believing in a god. They don't have any proof of this god, they don't even have a good reason for believing in this god. they just do and they push their myth on everyone else. They even try and force it on everyone through the government. That is utterly insane.
How many stories have you read where a christian group has implemented some sort of organized belief in a school or a court? It is a complete abandonment of common sense. A rational person would not base their life on anything so sketchy.
If I'd ask you to take your life savings and just give it to me, and by doing so you will be rewarded, would you do it?
Hell know you wouldn't. Even if you thought about it, you'd ask a lot of questions and you'd demand solid answers. Questions like what reward, what guaranty would I have that you aren't just scamming me? Questions like that. Yet you and millions of others are so sure about your god that you not only base your life on it, you want to FORCE your god on us, me.
Your right to be irrational and have impaired judgment and believe in a god is purely an INDIVIDUAL right. Just because you want to be insane does not give you the right to demand that everyone else join you.
You don't have any rational reason to believe in a god. No facts, no evidence. At best you offer sketchy testimony that isn't reliable nor verifiable. Your collective logic is so fucked up that you christians just make up shit and claim it as fact. Hell, you can't even agree on a bible or even who actually wrote it or EVEN when it was written or WHERE for cryin' out loud.
So I wrote this thread to illustrate the insanity of not only believing in a god in the first place but the sheer absurdity of forcing others to believe in a god.
Devout, you have come here and proselytized several times. You've spewed scripture as if it really meant something. You've called for converts. In my mind that is a criminal act if there ever was one. It is demanding people be obedient to something that just doesn't exist. And there is no justification for this at all. You say it is for eternal life, but YOU can't prove that. You don't even know that to be true.
And you may think it is harmless, but it isn't. That kind of mindset, the kind that abandons rational skepticism, allows populace nationalism to rise. Allows dictators to tell the masses to act in an irrational manner. Just like the popular preach that proclaims that hurricanes occur because we allow people to be gay. And although you may not agree with that particular preacher, you do believe in a particular set of ideals professed by some singular interpretation of your bible. The thing is that there IS NO singular interpretation of any of all the bibles written rewritten, edited and modified.
A member of the forum is a devout catholic and believes in a strict catholic doctrine. But there has NEVER been an objective catholic doctrine.....EVER. That is the case with every form of christianity and religion. It is absolutely insane! You have muslims terrorizing people because they all of a sudden believe that is "the will of god". And yes the islamic god is the exact same one as YOUR fucking god. What's worse is that you have rightwing nuts denouncing all of islam, not because ALL religions and belief in a god is insane, no they are denouncing islam for basically not being christian. Demonizing 1/3 of the world when only about 60,000 terrorist misrepresents their faith.
I am sick of religion. I am sick of populist nationalism. It is insane and is nothing more than impaired judgment.
I do want people to think and recognize that believing in a god without having any REAL proof of which is not sane or displaying good judgment.
I agree with you, @Mykcob4, religious beliefs are not displays of enlightened judgment: I think of this like a world where most adults still believe in Santa, and as someone famous said, religion is a temporary suspension of critical thinking.
But if I have to be fair I'd say it shows lack of critical thinking only to certain matters, meaning not every believer is necessarily irrational or doesn't apply critical thinking in other aspects of their life; and to be even fairer, not every atheist applies critical thinking in every aspect of their life either, yet based on my experience I'd say it's more unlikely the latter. Most atheists tend to be skeptical in other aspects of their lifes as well.
(edited)
@Flamencabot
You think that people that base their life on a myth actually compartmentalize their thoughts. I dare say not. In fact, I think it has been the mission of charismatic evangelical religions to decompartmentalize the entirety of life for EVERYONE!
I think it has been the mission of every religion to use the rules of said religious sect as a guide for every aspect of human endeavor.
"Let's go to Mars"
"Would jesus go to Mars?"
"Well, no, jesus hasn't even come back to Earth."
"Then we better not go to Mars."
It is decompartmentalizing of thought and function that leads right into radicalization and extremism. From there it is a short step to populace nationalism which is essentially a pep rally to spur these idiots into crimes against humanity and thinking that they are fully justified. This has always been the bane of humanity. One sect demonizes another so that that one sect can assume more power and control.
You may think little miss homemaker doesn't participate in all of this but that is where you are wrong. Little miss homemaker is precisely the problem. She controls the ideals of the next generation. She passive aggressively controls her spouse. She determines how the society works.
The most powerful voting block in history even before they could go to the poles were the wifes and mothers of all of mankind. And where does little miss homemaker get her information, her guidance? From the local church, mosque, synagogue.
So yes I don't believe that ANY god believer is a rational sane person. I see them as sleeper cells waiting to awake and act with the same irrational function as their misguided uneducated thoroughly washed brains!
Christian moms carp and complain about islamic terrorists is just lighting the fuse for a knucklehead to start a race/cultural war. Muslim women complaining about oppression caused by pop culture is just winding the time bomb of a terrorist attack.
Religion is the fuel for atrocities of every shape and kind, and the control nozzle is commanded by the women of the world and enacted by the men.
Let's face it men are basically stupid. Women have never been given power because men were and are generally stronger. But that hasn't stopped women. they have learned over millennia to assume power through covert action. They do it automatically now.
It isn't an accident that Freud always associates abnormal behavior with the particular relationship a person has with their mother.
I am not saying that the god-believing women are the only ones with impaired judgment. I am saying they are the only ones with impaired judgment that matters. And that impaired judgment is NOT compartmentalized.
Yes, It isn't that religionists are incapable of critical thinking, it is that they never apply it to their religious beliefs. Mykcob's correct, there is no rational basis to religious superstitions any more than to daft conspiracy theories.
Religionists indoctrinate children and some even mutilate their own child's genitals.
At least 50% of the population is insane and all of the other ones are nutty (that includes us).
@mykcob4
Pretend each card in the attached picture has a letter on one side and a number on the other side. Which two cards you would turn over to test the following rule: If there is a vowel on one side, then there is an even number on the other.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
My answer (hashed to not give it away yet):
4b110604865b013dd13d9ce3f66046f2
@Breezy
Why? What will that prove?
I guess and it is strictly a guess that I would turn over the letter "K" thinking that the letter or vowel might be consistent with letters instead of numbers, but it is just a guess.
Ok, now try this. Same scenario, except each card has an age on one side, and a drink on the other. You're a police officer, and have to determine if this rule is being followed: "You must be over 21 to drink alcohol"
Which two cards will you turn over, to make sure the rule isn't being violated?
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
If you wanted to be a stickler; you could argue that there is only one card that needs to be turned over to verify the rules aren't being broken; by rejecting "beer = alcohol".
What was your hashed answer?
md5("E7") = 4b110604865b013dd13d9ce3f66046f2
I'm not playing anymore Breezy.
Impaired judgment is just that.
Here's my point:
The adjective "impaired" almost certainly implies that something outside of the individual is causing the impairment. Alcohol can impair your judgment, evident by the fact that many crimes are committed while under the influence. Injury to the front of your brain can also impair your judgment. Even tumors can impair judgment: I recently heard of an elderly woman that randomly wanted to divorce her husband, move to L.A. and be discovered as a star. About a week later she had a seizure, and upon inspection she had a tumor pressing against her brain.
So sure, people with these problems shouldn't operate motor vehicles. But someone that believes in a conspiracy theory doesn't have their judgment impaired just for believing in it. You are vilifying those you disagree with, for no other reason than because you disagree with them.
Most brains function the same, they make decisions the same, they make judgments the same, and apply knowledge the same. Had you played my "game" you would have seen that the first set was considerably harder than the second, despite both being essentially the same concept. Why? Because most people find it easier to manipulate concepts that are familiar, than those which are abstract. Cognitive psychologists have done a great job at understanding how people make decisions and judgments.
So my point is this: Your judgment is no different from those which believe in conspiracies. You both think you are right, you both have your reasons, and you both think you know more than the other person. You think they are brainwashed, they think you are brainwashed.
The only dangerous idea I see here, is thinking you are cognitively different from others.
@Breezy.
I disagree just because the brain functions the same way doesn't mean it isn't impaired by an outside influence. Believers in a conspiracy have an irrational concept of reality in the same way that people on drugs do. That is impairment.
The concept is solid but unfortunately the filters are not in place to effectively employ it. I agree that imagining and factually proving a point diverge legally but not all is comfortably seated in that logic. The spiritual aspect of man's psyche is very strong in him. I truly believe its where George Lucas' Star Wars script line "The Force is strong in him." originated from.
Man's spirituality knows no logical boundaries despite the so-called separation of church and state. Theological logic is an oxymoron but weighs heavily in man's judgement of all things secular. Allowing it to play an integral role in deciding outcomes of significant importance slays the entire argument for objective, critical thinking. Yet, there it is residing as an accepted norm in the current psyche at large.
To say one man has only partial command of his objectivity because he is a theist would have such a profoundly polarizing effect on the human condition that no one can imagine the fall-out from it. It would reverberate in all walks of life. If people think the current governing 2-party systems in place now are divisive they would see a much more invasive impact into their daily lives if theists were decidedly unfit to hold public office or like employment.
That said, coherency claims from theists would retaliate loud and long to the argument that it is they who hold the higher ground of objectivity, by sheer weight of numbers alone, and deep-pocket (votes) their stances into the mainstream as they've always done. If you can't bewilder them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. I can't think of any undertaking in life that more perfectly aligns itself with that mantra than the various religions. It's a "beat it to fit, paint it to match" kind of philosophy religions champion.
Today's psychological back drop embraces theology as one of many accepted conditions describing a normal person. Tomorrow that may change. For now, society still needs theology so it will stay as long as humanity feels it rounds out a normal life. When that changes, humanity will naturally expel it from the psyche.
I may be late to the party but this actually makes no sense to me. Christianity did not stop the invention of the automobile. It did not stop Darwin from coming up with "Selective Mutations." Admittedly a God belief can create some impairment but it will not stop a rational or logical mind even when the mind has to do loops around the God concept to make a point.
There are pedophile priests and pedophile non-believers. You are mushing a whole lot of stuff together and muddying up any point you are trying to make.
I would just like to add because there is some confusion here, impaired vision is far different than impaired judgment.