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@ziani
NO
The evolution of the universe from the singularity is not as you describe. If you wish for me to go into detail, I can. But your version is very inaccurate.
David Killens@
Sir with respect ,consider that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got much closer, the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away, the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible. Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun, plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us?
The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around the earth keeps the harmful ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us?
We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun’s energy and its light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cool of night and we need the lights to go out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?
ziani,
"We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun’s energy and its light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cool of night and we need the lights to go out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?
Mohammed thought that when the Sun went below the horizon that it went into a muddy pond. Why didn't Gabriel/Allah explain to Mohammed how the solar system really works?
In all galaxies with life, the things that are essential for life exist, therefore life is able to exist. This is necessarily so - there is nothing remarkable about it. What would be remarkable would be life existing despite not having the conditions necessary for it to exist.
These conditions did not happen by chance. They were determined by the laws of nature, and thus were certain to happen.
@ ziani
Nothing was planned, this solar system formed because of how gravity and dust interacted. This planet's position was nothing but luck, Earth fell into that golden zone. We are a product of the environment, it was not created for man.
You have fallen into the "purpose" trap, one that cannot be sustained.
If you are walking outside one day, and see a puddle in the dirt, do you assume that the shape of the hole that embraced the puddle was created just for that water, or do you assume that the water filled in the hole?
@ziani
Surely, you would not expect to look up and discover that the sun is fatally close! No, any being who looks up, anywhere in the universe, will always find his sun at the right distance to support his civilization--unless there has been a catastrophe. That must be true whether Allah exists or not. Therefore, it is no proof of Allah or any creator.
How is it that you believers of the Quran make so many errors of reasoning? Seriously, you need a course in sound reasoning with emphasis on the scientific method.
@ziani,
This is the old game of 20-20 hindsight. When a book has marvelous passages of modern science that cannot be known until scientists make the actual discoveries, whereupon translations are twisted as needed and highly creative interpreting applied, then BEWARE! It seems like in the Islamic world this is practically a collage industry. I answered a number of them thrown out by Tasnim.
None of that demonstrates objective evidence for a deity.
copied/plagiarized from https://www.islam-guide.com/purpose-of-life.htm
Cog,
I haven't been around long, and don't post much, but I think I've found my doppelganger in thought. Great post.
I don't see anything positive in Islam, just a brutal cult of personality.
NewSkeptic@
hello sir and thanks for your reply , I’ll be conservative: There is a lot of misinformation about Islam in the media,Unfortunately most of atheists don't know the truth about islam just what they heard and just what they read in the media and news channels ,.Any human being with even little common sense can understand how much Media can influence people in a way they want! Its pity to see that even literate people falling for that.Understand Islam by your own self. Those names on the news channels you see have nothing to do with Islam and more to do with media, propaganda, there is completely something else is going out there actually.If you want to talk about Islam, first, you need to know the basics of Islam,most Muslims are sunk in earthly enjoyment. They have distanced themselves from Islamic knowledge. Therefore, it is not right to compare with them
sir please don’t fall into the trap of trying to understand Islam from a media that don’t care about truth. I have many non-Muslims friends who completely changed their views on Muslims and Islam, just by reading a simple book about the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or any other book about islam , please focused on reading actual articles and books, rather than news aimed at sensationalizing our hate towards what one or two Muslims did.
, My dear Atheist God(Allah) praises people who use their mind ,islam is not a religion of “blind faith” but is a religion that strongly calls on man to use his logic, reasoning and intellect ,God(Allah) praises people who use their mind,islam stresses the importance for people to think, to reason and to use their mind and intellect,You have been given a brain to research, to reason and to analyze the facts. Faith is not to be accepted blindly. It must come from knowledge, logical reasoning and conviction,On the other hand, islam strongly rejects certain mentalities that are driven by myths, illusions, absurdities, ignorance, blind imitation of others, assumption (conjecture), prejudice, whims and desires
@ Ziani
And still no answers to me questions.
Old man shouts@
Sir with my respect to you im alone against around 30 Atheist
@ Ziani
I asked some simple questions. Instead of quoting scripture just answer. It really is simple.
I will ask again
What sect of Islam do you identify with?
Do you support the Jizra or tax on non moslems. That is a form of coercion to convert to Islam.
Then we can have a discussion. As it is you are interpreting the Hadith and Qu'ran, and just typing them out. We have all heard all that before.
And did you not enter this forum without anyone holding a gun to your head? What did you expect with such wild claims?
"Unfortunately most of atheists don't know "
>>>Why do theist think they can make these sweeping unevidenced claims? Hitchens's razor applies. This is also a fallacious appeal to authority.
"Any human being with even little common sense can understand how much Media can influence people in a way they want! Its pity to see that even literate people falling for that."
>>>As opposed to Muslims who mainly live in free democracies where they are not subject to indoctrination or propaganda you mean, do behave. As biased as the 'free' western press can be, it's asinine to claim the average westerner has less access to 'truth; than most Muslims, that's an absurdly silly generalisation.
"Understand Islam by your own self."
>>>I understand that like all other religions Islam can demonstrate no objective evidence for the existence of their deity, and unlike Muslims I apply the same open minded standard to all claims.
"most Muslims are sunk in earthly enjoyment. They have distanced themselves from Islamic knowledge. Therefore, it is not right to compare with them"
>>>That's another common logical fallacy, it's called The No True Scotsman fallacy.
"islam is not a religion of “blind faith”
>>>I disagree, but by all means demonstrate objective evidence that your deity is real.
"You have been given a brain to research, to reason and to analyze the facts. "
We evolved this way, are you denying the scientific fact of species evolution after your grandiose claims that Islam insists you think for yourself? Now that would be fairly ironic.
" islam strongly rejects certain mentalities that are driven by myths, illusions, absurdities, ignorance,"
So you don't believe Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse then? You don't accept the absurd and ignorant Koranic creation myth either one assumes, but rather use reason and logic to accept the scientific fact of species evolution? You can't make claims for logic and reason and claim to ignore myths and absurdities then favour myths and absurdities over the logic and reason of science.
Sheldon@
>>>I disagree, but by all means demonstrate objective evidence that your deity is real.
Think of complexity you’ve seen in your own study or life and ask yourself where it came from? Pause for a moment and just think. Can there be a book (complexity) without a writer? A building without a builder? A painting without a painter? Code without a coder? Can we even have Stonehenge without an intelligent being behind it?
Everything i.e., Sun, earth, plants, animals, sense organs, intelligence, memory, imagination, human beings, war, violence, pain, sorrow, sufferings, nuclear bombs, smart phones, driverless cars, supersonic aircrafts, super computers, etc. came into existence accidentally by natural processes and by blind laws of physics without any kind of involvement of an intelligent designer or Creator.
If not, then how can the universe, its balanced systems, its finely-tuned constants, its complex laws, not have intelligence behind it?
>>>We evolved this way, are you denying the scientific fact of species evolution after your grandiose claims that Islam insists you think for yourself? Now that would be fairly ironic.
The theory of evolution says that man evolved from the ape, rather than being created by a Creator. Although this theory has no academic or scientific substance, it gained favor with so many people because it appealed to the doubts they had about the God that they were told to believe in. This is not surprising. If you give an educated person a description of a Creator that is illogical and unreasonable and then ask that person to believe in Him as his God, he would refuse. This unfortunately is the situation right now, especially in the west.
copied/plagiarized from https://plfilm.net/v-22-reasons-to-stop-believing-in-god-OddQmMEYhvY.html
ziani says "Think of complexity you’ve seen in your own study or life and ask yourself where it came from?"
Yes the argument from the appearance of design, christians find this compelling as well. I'll list the flaws in bullet points if I may.
1) The appearance of design does not evidence design, neither does complexity, we infer design from evidence.
2) Complexity in biology is evidenced by the fact of species evolution, and explained by the scientific theory of evolution.
3) By comparison to the enormous amount of objective evidence to support evolution, there is no evidence for creationism or a creator.
4) Asking yourself where life came from does not evidence a diety or creator, it's an argument from ignorance, which is a fallacy in informal logic. Look up argumentum ad ignorantiam.
5) you are listing things we know are designed, but ignoring how we know, as we know they are designed not from complexity but form the evidence. Note there is not a single instance of any of your examples occurring in nature.
----------------------------------------------
ziani says "Everything came into existence accidentally by natural processes and by blind laws of physics without any kind of involvement of an intelligent designer or Creator."
1) Straw man argument firstly as no one has made the claim you are refuting that natural processes are accidental, they are not, and neither can we claim this for physics.
2) Again you're begging he question by implying it is a choice limited to either your straw man claim, or a creator. This is not evidence for a creator, but an assertion that one is needed. You have yet to show any evidence for this assertion beyond the logical fallacy of pointing out we can't explain things, the logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam again.
--------------------------------------------
ziani says "If not, then how can the universe, its balanced systems, its finely-tuned constants, its complex laws, not have intelligence behind it?"
1) Again begging the question, show evidence the universe is finely tuned for a start, we only have one universe so how exactly can you demonstrate this assertion?
2) I am making no claims, so I don't have to demonstrate anything, but I will point out yet again that you imply an intelligent creator in your argument for a creator, so a fallacious use of begging the question again.
3) So far all you have offered are flawed arguments and logical fallacies, no evidence objective or otherwise. The exact same flawed arguments we have seen christians use time and again.
------------------------------------------------
ziani says "The theory of evolution says that man evolved from the ape, rather than being created by a Creator."
1) No it doesn't, the scientific theory of evolution makes no claims about fictional creators at all.
2) The taxonomy of humans is that they are apes, this is a fact supported by a weight of evidence that is beyond any reasonable objection. The family of great apes includes gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans, gibbons and humans. You need to study evolution rather than simply parroting false creationist propaganda.
3) Again this a flawed argument and not objective evidence, and I am getting the familiar impression that you're another theist who doesn't know the difference.
---------------------------------------------------
ziani says "Although this theory has no academic or scientific substance, it gained favor with so many people because it appealed to the doubts they had about the God that they were told to believe in. "
That's simply a lie. It is a scientific theory that explains a scientific fact, with nothing but substantive scientific evidence, and again you're not offering objective evidence for your deity, as you claimed you could, but lying to deny scientific facts.
-----------------------------------------------
"If you give an educated person a description of a Creator that is illogical and unreasonable and then ask that person to believe in Him as his God, he would refuse. This unfortunately is the situation right now, especially in the west."
1) No it's not, you are woefully ill-informed I'm afraid.
2) So not one shred of evidence objective or otherwise despite your grandiose claim at the start.
You need to do a lot of research as you're parroting the worst cliched propaganda of creationism. They're woefully ill-informed, and completely incorrect. You should try the talkorigins website as it is quite comprehensive and will disavow the worst creationist lies that you seem to have accepted as true in denial of scientific facts. You might also benefit from looking up common logical fallacies as you use these a lot in your arguments.
These should help you make a start if you really are interested in an objective appraisal of your beliefs and claims.
1) http://www.talkorigins.org/
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
You have no objective evidence at all? So I can't assess it, only point out that you have used the most cliched creationist propaganda to attack science, and offered common logical fallacies as deeply flawed arguments. None of that is evidence let alone objective evidence, and your constant implication that atheism is derived from ignorance is something of an own goal given you're parroting the worst religious apologetics, most of which we have all seen posted here by christians many times before.
Try starting form a position of objectivity, and giving people the respect you implied you would. The atheists on here are all better informed than your posts imply you are, I'm sorry if this offends you but your posts demonstrate this to be a fact.
Sheldon@
Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude? Would you think that someone dropped this watch? Or would you suppose that the watch came by itself? Of course no sane person would say that the watch just happened to emerge from the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the metals that lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer. If a watch tells accurate time we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent. Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.
But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and sunset. Their timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the sunrise and sunset times in your daily newspapers. But who regulates the timings of sunrise and sunset? If a watch cannot work without an intelligent maker, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?
Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got much closer, the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away, the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible. Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun, plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us?
The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around the earth keeps the harmful ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us?
We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun’s energy and its light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat, we need the cool of night and we need the lights to go out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?
@ziani
[[Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude?]]
It's not the complexity of the watch that tells us that it is man-made. It is the fact that it is out of place in nature, there being no known way for mother nature to produce such watches. A formless, blob of pure aluminum would also require manufacture since nature does not produce pure aluminum. How complex is a blob of pure aluminum? Thus, we can conclude that a watch or a spoon was man-made, even a blob of pure aluminum, but we cannot conclude that grass or a tree has a creator. They are not out of place in nature.
[[But who regulates the timings of sunrise and sunset? If a watch cannot work without an intelligent maker, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?]]
The timings of sunrise and sunset are a simple consequence of the conservation of the angular momentum of a rotating Earth. Entirely natural. Nobody regulates them! (Where do you Muslims get these weird arguments?) Yes, it does occur by itself. You can't compare the watch and the sun; one is out of place in nature and the other is not.
[[Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance? Without the sun, plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us?]]
Surely, dear ziani, you would not look up and discover that the sun was at the wrong distance to support civilization! Barring a catastrophe, anyone anywhere in the universe will discover that their sun is at the right distance to support their civilization. That's necessarily true whether there is a creator or not. Therefore, it cannot be proof for a creator. (Once again, you Muslim conservatives need to bone up on your basic reasoning skills.)
If Earth didn't have the necessary processes to support you, then you wouldn't be here asking questions!
The fact that you can even ask these questions implies that the processes are in place, and that's true whether there is a creator or not. Therefore, it is not a proof of a creator. Can you understand that?
Ziani says "Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude? Would you think that someone dropped this watch? Or would you suppose that the watch came by itself? "
>>I just explained that we infer design from evidence and the fact there are no examples of designed things occurring in nature. Yet you ignored what I said and repeat Paley's watchmaker fallacy, even though it's been thoroughly debunked. We have objective evidence that watches are designed, complexity has nothing to do with it, and what the grains of sand in that desert, were they designed? If so then again you're contradicting your fallacious claim that design is inferred from complexity.
-----------------------------------
The rest of your post is the same endless repetition of your fallacious argument from the appearance of design, by pointing to complexity and claiming it must need a deity to create and regulate it, but you offer no objective evidence to support your claim, none. Once again then complexity does not donate design, evidence does.
We evolved to survive in the earths environment, it was not created to suit us. This is evidenced by science beyond any reasonable doubt, and the scientific theory of evolution explains the fact of the natural phenomena species evolution. Your claims are unevidenced and they are denying scientific fact.
Again go to the talkorigins website and learn about the facts of species evolution, as you're woefully ill-informed.
@Sheldon
Nice post! Great resources!
Unfortunately, you can lead the fanatic to mountains of evidence but you can't make them think. They live in a little bubble that shuts reason out.
It is impossible for something to come from nothing. As Lavoisier said: ""Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed." Therefore nothing is truly created.
The laws of nature are eternal, and define why everything is the way it is. Attributing intelligence to nature is a supernatural claim, which is not falsifiable.
Sapporo@
A good professor is one that does not give you the answers to the exam, rather, the professor provides you with the tools and information and lets you analyze, interpret and apply that information to reach a conclusion on the exam question! If the professor were to give you the answers to the exam, it would violate the purpose of the exam. If Allah were to give you proof of his existence it would violate your purpose in life-to worship Allah without proof of his existence. Instead, he gives signs and hints that point to his existence!
In conclusion, the Quran explicitly states that Allah refuses to give proof of his existence and rather he wants humans to reflect upon the signs he has given to choose whether or not to worship Allah. In which case, it would be required, In order to maintain the structure of the test, for the signs to be clear so that it compels those whose hearts are open,. A good analogy would be a professor giving you hints and information on the exam that don't reveal the answer to the exam for those who didn't study, but sufficiently guides those who truly studied in getting the right answer.
@ziani
[[In conclusion, the Quran explicitly states that Allah refuses to give proof of his existence and rather he wants humans to reflect upon the signs he has given to choose whether or not to worship Allah.]]
So Allah wants people to worship him without adequate evidence. This is so incredibly stupid! Perhaps Allah wants to associate with morons in heaven! All the smart people, the rational people who draw sound conclusions based on evidence are of no interest to Allah. Sorry, I just can't wrap myself around such a theology. A caring father doesn't play hide-and-seek with his children. This is a frightening example of how religion twists one's mind.
" If Allah were to give you proof of his existence it would violate your purpose in life-to worship Allah without proof of his existence. Instead, he gives signs and hints that point to his existence!"
Nonsense, that's just a feeble rationalisation for believing something you have just admitted you have no proper evidence for. The christian theists on here have used the same tired cliche to defend their blind belief as well.
@ziani,
[[The theory of evolution says that man evolved from the ape, rather than being created by a Creator. Although this theory has no academic or scientific substance, it gained favor with so many people because it appealed to the doubts they had about the God that they were told to believe in. --ziani]]
This is a classic example of Islamic backwardness in science! The basic idea of evolution is a fact of science, as much a fact as is the roundness of the Earth! Go to any respectable university (not under terrorist threats) and talk to the professors, look at the websites of major universities, or examine the leading scientific journals and you will see where real scientists stand. Basic evolution is a fact of life and Darwin's great contribution, that of natural selection, is its main engine. Wake up and smell the coffee!
Your profound ignorance of biology, due to religious bias, is exceeded only by your insulting attack on scientists! You seem to have this fantasy, no doubt common to many Muslims, that scientists take up evolution because it casts doubt on god-belief. Nonsense! Damned nonsense! Many evolutionists are religious, some are even Muslims. Biologists, paleontologists, and other scientists don't go into those fields to refute some silly religious ideas. They enter these fields because the fields are fascinating, challenging, fruitful, and offer deep insight into reality. Biology would collapse into a pile of loose, descriptive facts without its core of evolution.
How can you say, with a straight face, that biological evolution has no academic merit or scientific substance when every introductory university textbook (usually about 1100 pages) treats it as a fact? How can you say that when biological evolution supports whole fields of research? How can you say that when biological evolution is the ultimate explanation of mountains of assorted biological facts? Dear ziani, you have divorced yourself from reality on this matter!
@ziani,
You are uninformed. Many atheists know more about Islam (and Christianity and Buddhism and every other religion) than those who practice the fairytales themselves. We are not ignorant of what is taught by religion but, on the contrary, many atheists evolved from religious origins. How? Why? We took off the blinders, asked the questions, saw the myths, falsehoods, hypocrosy, recognized the spin, and escaped the insanity.
Take away your book and you are ignorant of anything and everything. Just because you've memorized or can quote words from a manmade book does not mean those words are true any more than someone who memorizes and can quote Star Wars books speaks about historically accurate events.
In a thousand years when space ships traverse the universe - will Star Wars be looked upon as divinely inspired simply because its fictions became reality?
Tell you what - defend your faith, prove the existence of your god, defend your own beliefs - not your books version of belief - without that stupid book transcribed by people who could write listening to stories about meeting a spirit creature while not doing his job sleeping in a cave, from an ignorant shepherd who could not write.
Look at the world around you - take off the blinders - view the reality in which you live through lenses other than that delusion you call Islam or religion at all and your eyes will be opened to truth.
Ignorance of reality displaced by perpetuation of myths and fairytales as real, is not a good starting position for credibility and defending an ancient book lacking any virtuous quality is not expressing truth, it's a sad expression of grasping for respect that could easily be obtained by showing your ability to think rather than accepting what you are told to think and repeating it like a good little drone.
Why are you here? Do you wish to show us all how your fairytale is truth and do you want to show us how repeating memorized or referenced verses from a violent, man written fiction is how we can attain enlightenment?
Do you want to show us, people who do our own thinking and our own research and who ask the questions you yourself are afraid to even articulate, how your quoting a dead book with more errors and ignorance than facts in it, is the right way to view the world and reality?
Do you want to show us how murdering factions of a fighting religious sects who cannot agree on anything regarding even ONE BOOK and who kill each other over stupid words is virtuous over life, living, logic, reason and rational thinking?
Do you want us to believe that you, a person who has yet to write one original, personal thought, can present any argument of reason that could possibly influence any of us, who do our own thinking and research and who, likely, have studied and know more about your religion and faith than you do because we are brave enough to question and we do not fear retribution from invisible imaginations or punishment from ignorant people too afraid of the truth to let others have it?
You are in the wrong place... and you're arguments are carried in buckets with no bottom - they cannot hold water.
Give any rational argument from anything but ignorance - stop quoting a book nobody here respects because we know its origins and understand its ignorance and maybe, just maybe, we'll at least engage you with some degree of respect. Keep talking from your ass and that stupid book we all know is a fiction and bullshit - and you'll keep getting the same responses.
Proselytize elsewhere... we are not ignorant enough to be your target audience. We are not fearful of your invisible deities. We do not care about your sect or your authorities because we are not under your laws or rules. We do not fear your thinking police -and we'll fucking keep being more educated than you about truth.
Live in your ignorance all you like - that is your personal choice, but let those of us who do our own thinking who have escaped your asylum be free of your delusions. Life outside is good and truth has set us free... remain in your prison if you like or join us in living life, here, now, in this reality. Dive right in, the water is fine!
DragonBonz@
This feeling of doubt and confusion about the presence of a Creator must be quite painful because it deprives the Atheist and the Agnostic of tranquility, security and peace of mind. The unbelievers do not have credible answers to the purpose of one’s existence. And thus they say that man lives for himself and for the pleasures of this life. Those who only believe in the material world and who do not believe in a Creator only believe in sensory data. They say that this universe and everything in it came by itself. All its order is simply due to blind coincidence. They say that man is simply like an animal or a plant and that he will exist for a short period and then end like any other animal or plant.
So what happens when life turns sour? What happens when one goes through hardships? It is no coincidence then that the largest number of suicides takes place amongst Atheists, Agnostics and people who do not know their purpose in life. Do you know which country has the largest number of suicides? It’s Japan. In the year ending March 2017, there were 33,000 suicides in Japan. That is 91 suicides per day or 1 suicide every 15 minutes! This despite Japan being the second largest economy in the world wherein people do not have to worry about providing a roof over their heads or about food or medical care.
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