Alright so my phone crashed the first time I tried this. It is now almost 2am so you can see how determined I am to get this out.
I'll start off by saying that I am not here to offend anyone, but to simply share my extremely pessimistic view on life. So if this ends up reiterating someone else's previously shared view, I apologise.
Now I'll ask a RHETORICAL question to the theists here that they have all probably heard a thousand times: do you believe in heaven? Do you believe in hell?
If someone offered me irrefutable evidence that hell exists (not specifically mentioning WHERE, but more that it is exists in general), I would say that it is not beneath us (or in another realm), but here, right where you're standing.
Right now we live in a world where men are being tortured, women raped, and children slaughtered. Sons and daughters die in pointless wars while their mothers, brothers, and sisters are being abused sexually and physically by strangers, friends, or even family.
People are dying of starvation, cold, and disease, while governments count their money and silence anyone who would dare speak out against them.
We think of hell as the worst place imaginable, a place of eternal torture, pain, and suffering, but right now I can't think of anything worse than this.
Perhaps we have the wrong meaning of 'eternity', because as long as we humans exist, there will always be torture, pain, and suffering, so if our species lasts for an eternity...
So my question to the Catholics, Christians, Muslims, etc.... Why continue to believe you can go to heaven, if we've already been sentenced to hell?
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Nice
In the bible hell is a place without god, making earth a place with god, and how god lets all these horrible things happen would make no sense, so maybe this is the christian hell ;)
@john - Imagine a man goes and steals a TV. As he is walking out of the store police show up. He is guilty of second degree robbery, and in some states the penalty can be up to 15 years. So let me ask, is there anything he can do to escape the penalties of his actions? Can he whip out some cash, give it to the police, and be like "Yeah I tried to steal it, but look, I just paid for it, so I'm not guilty?" What if he promises never to steal again, and vows to not only pay for every TV he ever wants, but pay double for it? The judge will only say good, you can start as soon as you're out of jail.
It's strange you should use this example here. Now what if some dude shows up during the court proceedings and declares. Execute me for this man's sins and in return this man shall be given a mansion to stay in and all the luxuries life has to offer but he must call me his god.
I suspect the judge would still sentence the robber and probably send the new character to a mental hospital. How can the human sacrifice of one man be the ransom for the sins if humanity. And how can believing that that act was gods will grant me salvation? It is insane.
Oh and by the way when did god create hell ? He very descriptively narrates creation of heaven and earth. Why didn't he create hell. Was it always there, eternal?
Finally you mentioned if we do what we are commanded we deserve no special commemoration, and while that's true we also deserve no punishment. Imagine your servant is asked to bring you a cup of tea and he does and the tea is well made and you enjoy it but still chose to beat him and abuse him mercilessly.
A good Hindu even if he does not deserve heaven at the very least dies nit deserve he'll.
And like the master if god was to torture innocence he is a sadist as he derives pleasure from torture or at the very least neither just nor merciful and not even close to good
@john - Imagine a man goes and steals a TV. As he is walking out of the store police show up. He is guilty of second degree robbery, and in some states the penalty can be up to 15 years. So let me ask, is there anything he can do to escape the penalties of his actions? Can he whip out some cash, give it to the police, and be like "Yeah I tried to steal it, but look, I just paid for it, so I'm not guilty?" What if he promises never to steal again, and vows to not only pay for every TV he ever wants, but pay double for it? The judge will only say good, you can start as soon as you're out of jail.
It's strange you should use this example here. Now what if some dude shows up during the court proceedings and declares. Execute me for this man's sins and in return this man shall be given a mansion to stay in and all the luxuries life has to offer but he must call me his god.
I suspect the judge would still sentence the robber and probably send the new character to a mental hospital. How can the human sacrifice of one man be the ransom for the sins if humanity. And how can believing that that act was gods will grant me salvation? It is insane.
Oh and by the way when did god create hell ? He very descriptively narrates creation of heaven and earth. Why didn't he create hell. Was it always there, eternal?
Finally you mentioned if we do what we are commanded we deserve no special commemoration, and while that's true we also deserve no punishment. Imagine your servant is asked to bring you a cup of tea and he does and the tea is well made and you enjoy it but still chose to beat him and abuse him mercilessly.
A good Hindu even if he does not deserve heaven at the very least does not deserve hell.
And like the master if god was to torture innocence he is a sadist as he derives pleasure from torture or at the very least neither just nor merciful and not even close to good
Yea god created hell for the people he predetermined would burn in he'll forever. . . . . . . Thank God hell does not exist lol
Yea god created hell for the people he predetermined would burn in hell forever. . . . . . . Thank God hell does not exist lol
@John...
No ! ....Sorry.......probably just a slip up on your part....but ....
"A Gentile is someone who is not Jewish/Christian.".
No.....a gentile is someone who is not a Jew/Jewish....
Im afraid christians are gentiles....
(although some mormons hold a different view ,believing non mormons to be gentiles.....this of course makes no sense ,rendering as it does jews as being gentile by their definition.)
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gentile
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gentiles?s=t
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentile
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/gentile_1
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gentile
watchman - "No ! ....Sorry.......probably just a slip up on your part....but ...."
I don't think it was a slip up, considering the next paragraph. I guess we will see.
@John - "the Bible talks about the idea of debt." Then you go on to give two metaphors on debts one about your student loan and the other about a king and his subject.
You really do need to think your metaphors through.
First let me address your metaphor. 1) your metaphor of you taking a student loan which was co-signed by a guaranteer. - 1) I did not take a loan. 2) I certainly didn't have any guaranteer. I did not ask any one to step in on my behalf.
2) India had a long tradition of landlords we called zamindars who became land owners through loansharking. What they would do is give loans at exorbitant prices and then to recover their loan and interest would usurp the land. At times they would falsify loans given when none was and then claim the land as collateral.
This reminds me of your king in the second metaphor. He was obviously above the station of the subject and could have falsified the loan given (it had to be false because as a subject I do not remember interacting with this king - kingdom of heaven, or even taking this loan.) and then he decides to sell off the subject , his wife and child as slaves (another barbaric act, befitting only of a god) and finally forgives this fictitious loan but says the deficit will remain.
Sounds to me this king is nothing but a loanshark, zamindar, scoundrel.
What debt do I owe any god. This concept of debt in the bible is just that a concept, philosophy, like karma or any other philosophy. It sounds nice but is baseless.
If this debt is the original sin then obviously I am not liable as I did not commit it and if these 2 characters Mr & Mrs Adam ever did exist you will have to prove lineage and the act. Your word for it is not enough.
secondly this demonic god destroyed the world before attempting to wipe out humanity in the case of noah, then he favoured one tribe on earth, the rest he called as gentile. Thus he showed favouritism. Whatever debts were owed. mass murder, genocide and prejudice against races more than makes up for it.
for Gods sake (I use that ironically). Adam and eve ate a fruit to which this dude goes bonkers on a murdering genocidal rampage. its a weird loan.
Let me put a metaphor here. you take out a loan but your business tanks and you cannot pay it back. does the bank let you declare bankruptcy or do they send a hit squad after you, your family, your kids, your neighbours and everyone you know and then chase you down generation after generation. I would assume only a psychopath would behave like this.
Im afraid I've always considered the whole Garden scenario to be nothing more than the tattered shards of a lost Canaanite/Levantine myth cycle.....
perhaps built ,piecemeal by the hebrews ...... in their inimitable "pick & mix" approach to neighbouring cultures and myths.
Consider.....it is God/ Yahwey /El ...who places the prohibition on the created pair .... but it is only a ban on the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" ...there is ,it appears another tree..... "the tree of life" ...but that appears to be fair game...at least at this point......
Now we know that serpent gods and godess' were common throughout the ancient world.....what if Eves serpent is a vestigal remnant of a serpent deity....gifting to his/her priestess (Eve) knowledge ...
But this scenario would mean that "God/ Yahwy /El" was not the only god...but one of several at least.....this of course is not proven ,yet......but consider..Genesis 3:22.-23...
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,"
Now I have to ask...who is the God character talking to ?
man is become as one of us ??? US ??
The answer may well be in the name of the serpent deity....
"In Minoa, the Snake Goddess was addressed as A-sa-sa-ra-me and was related to the Hittite Ishassara, the Khmer Apsara and the Canaanite Asherah."
link
http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/tracing-origins-serpent-cul...
See that ?
Ashera....now there is a name we know....
so ........ back to the books
This kid is too brainwashed. He needs to be deprogrammed. The bible isn't a good source for anything but John persist in using it for his arguments. His mind is closed and shut off from critical thinking. The pollution that invades him is great and damaging. He is of an age of militant christianity. He talks about abortion with all the hallmarks of someone that has no idea of conception or the actually biology that takes place.
I don't know whether to agree with you, point a stick at you saying people his age and below(I.e:me) "Don't know anything.", or both. You have me genuinely puzzeled as to what my reaction should be.......
"and I'll be back ".....
We'll see......
Nothing more needs said...... Wait. I just said more....... (looks down in shame)
Yes everything you say actually DOES hinge on the validity of the bible. Since the bible isn't in any way shape or form valid nor has it ever been validated and never will, I take your latest post as ceding that you have no way to PROVE anything. Perhaps you have questions about your faith, anyway your poor excuse about "test" when there is no school in session only further demonstrates your deceit.
Yes take a break. You need one. Take time out and actually try LOGIC instead of what I think you will do which is to go to one of your fellow propagandist for reassurance.
If only I had your aggression, myk. No, that's not sarcasum.
I'm not talking about you. Don't take things so personal. I was talking about John in the first place. As for age. The average age of christian radicals is around 24. Christian radicals live in a bubble. They are fed bullshit and anger. At some point they act out. Usually it comes in the form of indignant rants, but sometimes it becomes violent. They don't have the benefit of experience or even reality. So don't take what I am saying as being about you.
My apologies for taking it personaly and misunderstanding.
I agree mykcob4. but its not just the christians. all religions tend to inspire nut jobs that become violent.
Religion seems to be a source of perpetual dissent.
I have enjoyed engaging with John6IXBreezy.
Dispite his points being moot by default because he based them on the Bible.