It always comes down to intelligent or moral reasons a person becomes a Christian or not. Which one are you?
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If Christianity were true, meaning god being proven real, then I would still say no. I would acknowledge that I was wrong in being an atheist but I would still not worship the christian god because this does not take away from the fact that he is a dick.
Re: OP - "Which one are you?"
I'm an immoral moron who also happens to be a bit masochistic, and I get really pissed off when I hear of innocent/defenseless people and animals being abused/mistreated.. What's your point?
Re: "If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?"
As I answered in the other thread: No.
NO
The christian god is an immoral and cruel thug.
A lot depends on which version of christianity you are talking about.
Maybe you should define that first...
@Vasily Dimitrivich: I'm not that fucking stupid.
DO YOU KNOW HOW TO AVOID FALLACIES OF LOGIC? "It always comes down to intelligent or moral reasons a person becomes a Christian or not." APPARENTLY NOT.
Other Christian motivators would include, FEAR (THREATS OF VIOLENCE), COMMUNITY, IGNORANCE, PROMISE OF REWARD, SOCIAL PRESSURE, and ENVIRONMENT (FAMILY UPBRINGING).
Morality has nothing at all to do with Christianity. Most Christians have no idea at all what the word means. Following moral dictates is not moral. It has nothing to do with being moral. You can not be moral by only acting out of fear of punishment or hopes of reward. That is greed and not morality. Certainly we are in agreement on the lack of intellect. It takes a certain ability to avoid intellectual discourse and ignore facts to become a Christian. Intelligence certainly has something to do with it. Boiling it all down to a black or white fallacy is just an ignorant way to look at things.
Christianity?
Which Christianity?
You mean what Yeshua taught?
No-one actually knows what that fabled rabbinical teacher taught. The bible has been so thoroughly rewritten, edited and mangled, since your god supposedly inspired men to write it, all sects of the Christian religion follow only what they think he said. Its simply not possible to pinpoint anything Yeshua actually said. The Gospel of St Thomas has a great deal of quotes attributed to Jesus, but why is it not included as scripture in all versions of the inerrant Holy Bible? Maybe because of the stories where Yeshua killed a playmate and blinded people when he was a kid. Of course they are not very nice stories to tell about a loving god born of the flesh. Did the Christian God, or the Jewish God, inspire someone to write the apocryphal accounts, that amount to being early Stephen King story lines?
Maybe you're thinking about Pauline Christianity, which became popular with the gentile Greeks and Romans because it excised the unpleasant Jewish rituals out of the mix, like circumcision for adult male converts. Paul was desperate to be known as an apostle. He knew he had a potentially massive gentile following, if he just basically removed all the Hebrew observations and rituals that the gentiles didn't like, despite them being what Yeshua supposedly taught. But saving your dick from mutilation was the slippery slope to eating pork and bacon, shellfish, and prawns, and lobsters, and eventually, the exquisite sin of wearing clothing of mixed fabrics.
Paul wasn't thinking about the canons of the Catholic Church, or the Greek Orthodox, because they hadn't even been formed before he died in the late 60's, and in fact I rather think he might have favoured the very spiritual Gnostic faith, as Tertullian, and many other early faith leaders did.
These days just these two religions are so vastly different it leaves me wondering where the Holy Spirit was. How come the HS didn't inspire the correct thinking and understanding, and produce the revelations, that were supposed to reaffirm the unity of the early church of Yeshua?
Now, all of the above took place well with in the first 100 years after Yeshua died, and the alterations, disagreements and schisms that have led on from those first few changes to whatever Yeshua originally taught have grown in number and variety, so much so that I doubt even Yehsua himself, were he here today, would be able to identify the religion named after him. What would he have thought of Joseph Kony's Army of God in Africa? Or Joseph Smith's Mormonism? He would have wept.
Whatever solid edifice of organised faith and worship you believe in Vasily, I have serious doubts that it is anything like what Yehsua had ever intended. As I understand it, Yeshua originally just wanted Jews to be nice to each other and to stop to sacrificing furry little animals and be strict vegetarians. The gentiles did not seem to matter in his apocalyptic vision of the world. With Paul's psychotic ambition to be a holy man, the gentiles managed to plunder the attraction of the original teachings.
Would I embrace Christianity if it were proven to be true?
No. I've read too much history not to be sceptical about, not only this religion, but all religions, and all claims for truth, because of their close proximity to the minds of men. We can be such a bunch of unconscionable liars and ignorant dupes.
@Vasily Dimitrivich
"It always comes down to intelligent or moral reasons a person becomes a Christian or not"
Are you attempting to imply that intelligent and/or moral people are drawn to christianity?
Have to state upfront that I believe it to be damn near impossible that any version of Christianity is correct.
Then, given the question of whether I would follow it if true, I make the assumptions then that eternal heaven and hell are in play as they exist in my head, hell being eternal torment and heaven being eternal worship of this God. My rational choice at that point would be to avoid the eternal torment although the eternal worship is only moderately more enticing.
Yes, I would swallow my moral outrage at the monster that is the Christian god in order to avoid eternal burning.
VD, you asked, “If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?”
No. I think I’m too kind, loving, accepting, and generous to accept membership in such a damaging organization (in any of its permutations).
If the Christian god were demonstrated to exist, I would believe his existence (I'd no longer be an atheist), but I would not become a Christian.
Worshipping the genocidal, misogynist, homophobic, slavery condoning being depicted in the Bible, is an anathema to morality. If the Bible is a fair representation of his actions and his nature, he's an immoral thug.
@VD
No.... IMO, I think that theists miss the possibility that if there is a God that it could actually not be part of any religion.
@In Spirit
Which of the near infinite possibilities of such a "god like entity that requires no evidence," that means the odds that any religion got it anywhere near close to correct, is EXTREMELY remote.
And that of course assumes that there is some sort of "god like entity" at all. Of which we have no way of calculating the odds of such an abstract idea as the various god ideas humans have come up with.
No actual evidence, the "god" idea remains just that, just an idea, of which no action should be taken on that idea except perhaps to look for actual evidence on it if desired.
What people write or say is not evidence, unless what they say can actually be verified. Which excludes any "evidence" I ever heard any religious apologist come up with.
I'm going to say no. The god of the Bible (Yahweh/Jehovah) is a war god. If I'm going to worship a war god I can think of a few that I'd rather than Jehovah.
@Lostlocke
Like Ares lol? It is the only god of war that I know of...But he'd probably been slayed by Kratos so...
@ Talyyn
Celtic gods of War:
Agrona,
Alaisiagae,
Andarta,
Andraste,
Anann,
Badb,
Bandua,
Belatucadros,
Camulus,
Catubodua,
Cicolluis,
Cocidius,
Macha,
The Morrígan,
Nemain,
Rudianos,
Segomo,
Teutates,
Greek gods of War
Alala, spirit of the war cry
Alke, spirit of courage and battle-strength
Amphillogiai, goddesses of disputes
Androktasiai, spirits of battlefield slaughter
Ares, the main Greek god of war, despised by all the city-states except Sparta
Athena, goddess of wisdom, war strategy, and weaving, more beloved by ancient Greeks than Ares and tutelary deity of Athens, Sparta's rival
Bia, spirit of force and compulsion
Deimos, personification of terror
Enyalius, god of war; in early periods apparently an epithet of Ares, they were differentiated later
Enyo, goddess of war, sometimes appears to be identical to Eris
Eris, goddess of discord and strife
Hera, in the Illiad she has a martial character and fights (and wins) against Artemis; however, this warlike aspect of her appears nowhere else in the surviving corpus, suggesting it was dropped early on
Homados, spirit of the din of battle
Hysminai, female spirits of fighting and combat
Ioke, spirit of onslaught, battle-tumult, and pursuit
Keres, female spirits of violent or cruel death, including death in battle, by accident, murder, or ravaging disease
Kratos, personification of strength and power
Kydoimos, spirit of the din of battle
Makhai, male spirits of fighting and combat
Nike, spirit of victory
Palioxis, spirit of backrush, flight, and retreat from battle
Pallas, Titan god of war-craft and of the springtime campaign season
Perses, the Titan of destruction
Phobos, spirit of panic, fear, flight, and battlefield rout
Phonoi, spirits of murder, killing, and slaughter
Polemos, spirit of war
Proioxis, spirit of onrush and battlefield pursuit
Every culture has/had its war gods, aspects of war gods, and "ex" war gods like hera. YHWH was not even in the top league of gods in the Sumerian pantheon.
See wiki for a list of a thousand more or so gods....
@Old man shouts...
Ohh Yeah! And this is only a list for Europe/Middle-East.
If I had to pick off the top of my head, I'd go with Horus. Party because of the conflicts between Christianity and Ancient Egyptians. ;)
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Me too.
I'm fond of Thor, although not strictly a war god (that was Tyr)
I'm also fond of this joke:
Norseman to christian missionary: " Let me get this right. YOUR god was nailed to a tree?"
Christian "It was a cross actually"
Norseman: "Whatever. -------- Thor, MY god carries a bloody great hammer"
@Vasily Dimitrivich If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?
Before I can answer this question, you'd have to tell me what Christianity is so that I can determine whether or not it's true.
One true thing I know about Christianity is that it's a generic term for a sorry collection of old myths and belief systems that have brought endless hate, cruelty, and misery into the world.
Another truth about Christianity is that hats are very important.
It's also true that Christianity has better dress sense than most other religions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMQ4JicUs1A
If Christianity is true the God you worship is a lying asshole with the mind of a 3 year old. Absolutely not. Every time he gets pissed at a group of people he kills them. If you don't do what he wants you to do he kills all your neighbors. Fuck That!
@Cognostic: he kills all your neighbors
Well that may be the only good reason for worshiping god. Neighbors can be hell.
@Algebe: I stand corrected!
@ Vasily
Did you mean, if the Bible was true, would you become a Christian?
I think Christianity is to general of a term and can mean different things to different people.
You asked a great question, just trying to make it a little more clear.
By my calculation, 88% of those who responded, said NO.
Even if Christianity were true they would not become one.
I think that is very revealing.
So much for no bias or opinion on the matter.
Looks like 88% have already decided, and would not change, regardless of the evidence.
Yet they would say that Christian are the one who will not change, even when presented with compelling evidence.
If the Bible is true, than the characterization the 88% made of God is not objective.
They have shown that they already have a belief that they are fully committed to, even when it is opposed to all the evidence.
I don't think that 88% of fundies would say no, if the Bible was shown to be false.
Maybe the two have more in common then they have in differences?
/edited for spelling.
@ Jo
You know how hilarious that comment is, right?
Did you not take into consideration that the '88%' you loosely quote would not want to be associated with such a racist, misogynistic, bad tempered murderer as your god? Even if proven true?
@Jo Re: "Looks like 88% have already decided, and would not change, regardless of the evidence."
... LMAO... WOW! Just when I thought you could not possibly out-do all the other bumblings you have already made, here you go proving me wrong!... LMAO... Yep, I admit I totally underestimated your ability to warp what others have said. Because I am quite certain I have stated several times on this site what my stance would be if your god/bible were somehow proven to be true. One, I would obviously no longer be an atheist. I would have to believe in your god if it were somehow shown to be real without any shadow of doubt. However, that does not mean I would worship it. Because if it truly were the god depicted in the bible, I would more likely flip it off and tell it to kiss my ass. So, in that respect, I suppose you could say I would refuse to be a Christian. And by simple default, I would also no longer be an atheist.
I still find it amazing how you are not able to understand such a simple and elementary concept after all the time you have been here. At this point, one is forced to believe you are purposely refusing to listen and comprehend... *chuckle*... Once again, though, thank you for making our (atheists) efforts to help people see the adverse effects of religion so much easier.
@ Jo
"Looks like 88% have already decided, and would not change, regardless of the evidence."
I would not follow christianity because it is controlled by a vindictive, petulant, bloodthirsty psychotic god. If you can provide new evidence that the christian god is not the one depicted in the bible, then I would be open to changing my opinion.
I always follow the evidence, that is why I have asked many theists (including you) to provide evidence. If no evidence is provided, then I will not change my mind. If valid evidence is provided, then I will definitely give the topic very serious consideration.
Jo, I doubt you can dig yourself any deeper in the cesspool hole you have created, but by you, a theist, stating what atheists think, is just plain stupid, arrogant, and offensive.
@Jo
And as usual, you have missed the point we were making.
None of those 88% are saying they would remain an atheist. Only that we would not become a Christian. There is a difference that you may be too dense to discern.
Oh bloody hell, you are certainly dense.
We are unbiased when it concerns our atheism.
Yes, we would change. We would no longer be atheists.
I have stated this to you many times, I am completely willing to accept that a god exists given demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to support the claim. If the Christian god was demonstrated to exist, my intellectual honesty would force me to to accept his existence.
But there is a difference in becoming Christian and believing the Christian god exists.
If the Bible is an accurate depiction of the Christian god, I would not want anything to do with him. He ordered the Hebrews to slaughter entire towns and had them keep the virgins for themselves, he condoned slavery, he created rules to subjugate women, kill homosecuals, he ordered people working on the Sabbath to be killed, etc, etc. The Old and New Testaments are loaded with immoralities. And any god responsible for them, does not deserve worship.
Yes, the belief I already am committed to, is that the Bible depicts an immoral god.
I am not committed to being an atheist. My atheism is a result of theists not being able to meet their burden of proof to support their claim that a god exists.
Once again, if the Christian god were demonstrated to be true, I would no longer be an atheist. But (here it is spelled out for you), believing the Christian god exists, does not equate to becoming a Christian.
So...
If the murdering Muslim version version of the Abrahamic god were demonstrated to be the true god, and the Quran were proven to be true, would you become a Muslim?
Edited for spelling
@ Simon Moon
Your apologetics are not objective.
If Christianity is true than God is good, and not evil, as you characterize him.
"My atheism is a result of theists not being able to meet their burden of proof to support their claim that a god exists."
Previously when I asked you about theist being unable to meet the burden of proof.
You told your story of how you went form a theist to an atheist.
What was the "demonstrable and falsifiable evidence" that led you from theism to atheism?
Have those who believe God does not exist provided "demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to support the claim"?
Has any Agnostic ever "given demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to support the claim"?
Have you given any "demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to support" your previous claim that "Their (Theist) so called evidence and logical arguments are ALL flawed"?
I cannot answer your question about the Quran because it is not rational. It is kind of like asking, would I follow a bad God if he was shown to be good?
@Jo Re: Response to Simon Moon post
Great goobly-fucking-goob, Jo! Seriously??? All the time you have been on this site and have had this explained to you exhaustively by pretty much every-damn-body here in basic terms even a three year old kid could understand, and YOU STILL continue to TOTALLY IGNORE the very simple definition of atheism? Holy Christ on a stuffed jalapeno pepper! You have GOT to be kidding me. Just a little word of advice... If by chance you are attending some sort of class/school to learn this garbage you are spewing, you might want to seriously consider getting a refund. Because your instructor is a complete fucking moron. However, he is laughing all the way to the bank to deposit your money. (Hmmm.... On second thought, maybe your instructor ISN'T such a total brain-dead idiot... *scratching chin*...) On the other hand, if you are actually "home schooling" yourself with the tripe you peddle in your posts.... well.... hey, at least you are saving on tuition fees... *shrugging shoulders*...
Ya know, not that it really matters much to you, but when you first joined the site and started participating in the discussions a few months ago, I actually had some amount of respect for you, despite our difference in beliefs. Now, though, it has become increasingly clear to me (and likely most everybody else here) that you are doing nothing more than trolling, with no desire or intentions of having an honest discussion. Up to this point, I have actually been trying my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, Well, not anymore. Because it is fine and understood that you (as a Christian) feel compelled to make attempts to "enlighten" those of us who do not share a belief in your God. I was once in your shoes, as a matter of fact. And Christians and those of various other religious beliefs are more than welcomed to join us here for open and honest discussions in an effort to learn about the views of each other. And even though I might not agree with an individual about his/her religion, I can still hold a great deal of respect for such a person if he/she represents his/her particular faith in an open, honest, and positive manner. Sadly, you are now failing miserably in that area.
Here's the thing, though. It is bad enough to make yourself look like a foolish and bumbling dishonest idiot. Fine. Whatever. Who cares? But the worst part to ME is that you are here representing your particular faith, and your behavior on here is such that you are portraying your faith in an embarrassingly negative light. And you CONTINUE doing so DESPITE having this fact pointed out to you multiple times. And at this point after all of this time, one can only conclude your are INTENTIONALLY attempting to betray those of your own faith. To put it more simply and more to the point: You are PURPOSELY fucking over your own teammates. And in my world, that is something a person DOES NOT DO. I actually have more respect for common criminal thugs I have arrested before than I do for a person who knowingly and willingly undermines and sabotages the image of those of his/her own team.
Anyway, I have said it before, and I will say it again: Jo, you are doing yourself and your own religious faith a severe injustice by continuing to spout the nonsense you seem to believe makes some sort of sense. Also, once again, I write this knowing it will likely have no effect on you, nor any meaning to you. Still, there are those who read these threads who might hopefully benefit from having somebody point out these things which they may not be able to notice for themselves. Your move, Slick...
@ Tin-Man
I said nothing to Simon about the definition of Atheism.
Why do you say that "YOU STILL continue to TOTALLY IGNORE the very simple definition of atheism."
Is it because I asked him:
“What was the "demonstrable and falsifiable evidence" that led you from theism to atheism?”
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