First of all, I want to tell anyone here an happy new year. I am writing this post in response about another thread about western secularism and "pouring muslims".
As for me, i can say that i'm willing to give a muslim what we call as "innocent until proved guilty" card. I can trust a few ones but never an entire community, like the Ummah.
What are your thoughts on this?
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
There are Muslims around where I live. I know this because of their dress - they dress like Muslims. I have no reason to distrust them.
There may be lots of Muslims living in my area, who do not dress like Muslims, they dress as "westerners", so I can't tell that they are Muslim, (if such exist). Again, I find no reason to be distrusting.
This is not to say that we are not aware of a potential threat from radical Muslims in my country, but I wouldn't know a radical from a moderate. I live in Australia.
Mu.
P.S. Happy New Year to you too, Talyyn.
This is this same problematic that make me wrote this post. The problem is, which "muslim" do you decide to trust.
Meh. "muslims" ..."ethnics" ....."blacks". "gay"......why should I trust/distrust anyone for what they are? Would I distrust a Coptic Nun anymore than a woman in a hijab? When I wear my kilt (most days) should I be more or less trusted than anyone else in my street?
As a community I dislike the morning call to prayer, it offends my cat , I don't like church bells on Sundays. Otherwise if you want to believe in what you believe , like the Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Pentecostalists; just pay your taxes, vote for policies not religion,then, I do not have a problem.
I agree with you, these cases are plentiful. But i was talkng more about the doctrines itselves, not the rites.
Are they humans? Until they demonstrably do or say something harmful...
rmfr
I would really like to be open minded; however, I have read the quaran. "There will be a one world religion and it will be Islam" The quaaran acutely asserts death to all non-believers. It's teachings are Old Testament torture and death to the non-believer. Here are some of the biggest problems. I won't make this too long. Just giving you something to think about when you see those nice Muslims.
Taqiya or taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear"): A Muslim is allowed to lie about their religious beliefs to the infidel. If sharing their belief could do them or their religion harm, they can lie.
Another term for this concept, kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission. They need not share anything of the true teachings of their faith with outsiders.
Muslims can lie in business deals and in contracts. They can lie to a non-Muslim.
O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)
READING THE QUARAN SHOULD CHANGE YOUR MIND.
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89\
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221
"Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151
Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
he disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah. 4:104
Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Allah will destroy non-muslim cultures. 7:138-9
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 8:55
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. 9:12-14
Don't be friends with with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers. 9:23
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Disbelievers go to hell. 9:49
Stay away from non-Muslims. They are all liars. 9:107
Disbelievers are wicked and have diseased hearts. 9:125
Disbelievers will have a boiling drink and a painful doom. 10:4
Allah has destroyed entire generations. 10:13
Denying the revelations of Allah is the worst sin imaginable. 10:17
Allah drowned those who disbelieved his revelations. 10:73
Those who do not answer Allah's call will go to hell. 13:18
"The disbelievers would not be tolerated." 15:8
Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29
Allah destroyed entire towns. 17:16
Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
Disbelievers will not be successful. 23:117
Disbelievers are miscreants. 24:55
Never help disbelievers. 28:86
Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah are the losers. 29:52
Don't obey disbelievers. 33:1
Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 33:48
Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61
No one will be able to help those that Allah torments in the Fire. 39:19
Allah greatly abhors those who disbelieve. 40:10
Those who disbelieve are guilty folk. 45:31
Woe to the disbelievers. 51:60
Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 58:14-15
The disbelieving people of the Scripture are liars. 59:11
Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1
Refuse to obey the "rejecters" (Non-Muslims?) who seek compromise 68:8-9
Don't obey disbelievers. 76:24
Disbelievers are wicked people. On the last day they will be in darkness and have dust on their faces. 80:40-42
Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16
Hate on every page of the Quaran. Look for one page that is not insulting to a non-believer and it can not be done. How do you feel about your neighbors when you know they are allowed to lie to you, hide their true beliefs, and follow a religion that wants you dead?
I started reading the Quran yesterday. Thanks for the spoilers.
It seems like the radical Muslims are the only ones going to a "Muslim heaven".
Why do moderate Muslims event exist? How do they justify not doing all this?
I've read a good part of the Koran myself, hopefully a lot of muslims don't know themselves because they don't read classical arabic. At least, an honest dose of prudence is required
Cognostic,
"Hate on every page of the Quaran. Look for one page that is not insulting to a non-believer and it can not be done. How do you feel about your neighbors when you know they are allowed to lie to you, hide their true beliefs, and follow a religion that wants you dead?"
The Jews expressed those same ideas toward the Gentiles in the Bible and in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud. The major difference is that the Arabian muslims are willing to accept converts into their clique whereas Jews are not.
And rightfully so.
Are you aware of the writings of Martin Luther, and the origins of the protestant faith? Plenty of evidence for the antisemitic sentiment in the Christian religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_and_the_New_Testament
According to Louis Feldman, the term anti-semitism is an "absurdity which the Jews took over from the Germans." He argues that anti-semitism did not exist during Antiquity apart from a popular form of anti-Semitism in Egypt. He thinks the proper term is Anti-Judaism.[5] The distinction between anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism is often made, or challenged,[6] with regard to early Christian hostility to Jews: some, notably Gavin I. Langmuir,[7] prefer anti-Judaism, which implies a theological enmity. They say that the concept of anti-semitism "makes little sense" in the nascent days of the Christian religion and that it would not emerge until later.[8] In this context, the term anti-semitism implies the secular biological race theories of modern times.[9] Peter Schäfer prefers the word Judaeophobia for pagan hostility to Jews, but considers the word antisemitism, even if anachronistic, synonymous with this term, while adding that Christian anti-Judaism eventually was crucial to what later became anti-Semitism.[10] A. Roy Eckardt has asserted that the foundation of antisemitism and responsibility for the Holocaust lies ultimately in the New Testament, however, this itself may be anti-Semitic considering the New Testament was written by Jews, besides Luke the Evangelist, although it is widely believed he may have been a Hellenistic Jew, and would thus be blaming the Holocaust on Jews extensively and by fault.[11] James D. G. Dunn argues that the various New Testament expressions of anger and hurt by a minority puzzled by the refusal of a majority to accept their claims about Jesus the Jew reflect inner tensions between Jewish communities not yet unified by rabbinical Judaism, and a Christianity not yet detached from Judaism.[4] The Greek word Ioudaioi used throughout the News Testament could refer either to Jews or, more restrictively, to Judeans alone.
And now for the Ball-buster. If you quote it to a Muslim they will ask you if you speak Arabic. To understand it you have to speak Arabic. English translations are no good. The stupid translators just can't seem to get it right.
Fair enough.
But, how do the arabic speaking moderate and radical Muslims exist in synergy?
Yes! In the same way the Christian community supports the Wesboro Baptist Church when they go out protesting homosexuals. The Good Christians do not go out and stop them. They can't stop them because they know their magic book of opinions supports them, They are in fact complicit.
@Cognostic: The stupid translators just can't seem to get it right.
Don't blame the translators. Blame the stupid writers. Most bad translation results from bad original texts. Garbage in, garbage out. I guess writing clear, unambiguous text is beyond the abilities of the average monolingual sky-fairy.
Hi Talyyn! Happy new year to you too.
I would say it straight away. No, I am not trustful of Muslims. I can live with them, but fundamentally, they cannot live with me (without interfering in my life) unless I convert to Islam.
@Cognostic: made it quite clear why. I am going to add these points.
1. Majority of Muslims (moderates) are not Muslims. I say this because I have evidence to support it. They do not have enough knowledge of Islam just like the majority of Christians are not Christians and so on. They’re just Muslims/Christians etc. because they were brought up as such. These people are not extremists or fundamentalists but it is very probable that at some point in their lives they’ll read and understand the Quran and become extremists/fundamentalists. Majority of the fundamentalists are not brought up as such but become ones after understanding Quran. I say fundamentalists and not terrorists because fundamentalists are not essentially terrorists. There are a lot of Muslim Imams who preach violence (fundamentalists) but are not terrorists themselves. (In other words if you read the Quran and understand it, you either become fundamentalist and/or terrorist or a non-Muslim, however the former is more probable for Muslims)
2. If someone is a true Muslim (like mentioned in 1), they cannot tolerate anything else other than Islam. They cannot tolerate other religions, atheism etc. because Islam has this assertion that it is the final revelation and everyone else is wrong. Additionally, it is a noble cause to convert others by preaching, threats, conquering etc. or to subdue them. So it seems, they just cannot let me live peacefully.
3. At some period in history, the same could have been said about Christianity but it has since reformed tremendously. It is not clear to me whether Islam will be reformed in the future (for one thing, it even has problems with technological innovations. Search about the heated debate among Islamic scholars on the use of Tasbeeh), but certainly it is not going to occur soon. If it is to reform itself to a peaceful religion, it has to get rid of various concepts, like the claim of being final word of god, sharia law, apostasy etc.
I am distrustful of Islam (and a number of other things) and *some people who identify* as Muslim (as well as those who identify as some other things).
Good way to put it.
There are many Muslim communities around the world. Of which are you referring to?
I can't say really. I guess the Sufis are pretty cool, and most muslims are decent persons i think. However, due to tribalism, i do not expect a worldwide catharsis any time soon.
The sad reality is that, for a religion to grow and survive, it has to prey of every worst flaw inside us, and turn them into virtues.
My trust level of muslims is the same my trust level of christianity.
Good people I can trust, I do not trust any religion.
We are on the same lines so.
@ David
Exactly. I have known Christians who were actually good people but only the ones who actually believe in Christianity for the good of humanity. Most of this type of Christians are known as Christian Atheists. In other words, they believe more in humanity than any deity. Those are good people.
My level of trust would be dependent upon how radical the person is in the religious beliefs. William Lane Craig is one of those Christians if I saw coming up my driveway, I'd shoot him and never ask any questions. That man is not deserving of any respect or trust.
rmfr
Hi .. Happy new year honey ! Have a good day ...
Let me just pointing about the beautiful man @Cognostic about what he said in the concept of "Taqyia " It's actually different from what he mentioned , This concept used under the prosecution , It's actually an old story started when some kingdom invade another both of them are Muslims but different groups then they prosecuted each other depending on the religious groups .. Then the religious leaders announced that it's OK to lie and saying I'm not from this group to save your life Why ? Cause they have a religious base It says the religion support the life not the death then they allow you to lie under the prosecution only .. And you gonna find this interpret in "Shia " more than "Sunna " .. Well I wish they use this religious base now to delete the hateful interpretation but those fu***rs don't ...
I got you , You're talking about the ideology Does this man have a dangerous ideology and he pretend that he is peaceful ! Who knows ?? That's actually great question and this is kind of doubt it's amazing cause it makes you intellectual .. Unfortunately our minds work better in the hard situation .. Well in theology of Islam It says ... Quran is divided in three parts ..
1 - God promises ( which is the problem It effects me until now I don't like promises )
2 -Stories .
3 - Proverbs and sermons .
So when you ask Muslims believe It depends on how they interpret their quran .. There is three of interpretations :
1 - The literal interpretation ( The worst for sure )
2 - The meaningful interpretation ( The sufs )
3 - The rational ( Mua'tazila - They get killed in old days )
So what I studied the way of worship the god which is really important .. The Sufi believe there is one way only which is byv" Love " sadly they're a minority in the middle East .. The bi***ies " sunna " are different but there is commons They worship god by 1 - fear from him .2 - wishes what he gonna give in heaven .3- finally for love him that's the purposes for worship the god . The fear describe everything .. You can't fear something and love him in same time !! Impossible .. And that's why they react crazy with their dogma cause
their dogma builds on fear ..
There was a famous debate between Mua'tazilla and the radical sunni group in the old times the debate was Do we need to use our minds and think out of the text or not ? Mua'tazilla used their logic after they learned about the Greece philosophy one of the famous guys like In Sena and In rushed some of them announced they're atheists .. The other side In taymiah the fundamental guy who believe the person shouldn't think out of the text of Quran .. Who wins ? I already said it Mua'tazilla get killed all of them by a radical king who helped Ibn taymiah and did what he wanted .. Until now In taymiah is an idol in the radical sunna who are exist in Saudi Arabia and minorities in other countries ...
How muslims deals with a non Muslims ? Most of the ways they get deals with it it's to repeat the verse which says " To you your religion and To me mine " ( Kaffirun ) 109:1-6 ... That's in the individual level but they still has an interpret which tells them it's like their job to try to convert others to their religion that's noisy ...
Examples for the parts of quran but depends on the literal interpretation that what I learned I have no idea about how sufis interpret their Quran but I'm sure it's better ..
1 ) It's the promise of heaven for the believers ( not only Muslims ) but the non Muslims they gonna be judged depends on what they did goodly in the real life .. And of course the shortest way to heaven is to sacrifice yourself with a worshipping thing .. And there is also the concept came of "Jihad " which says the god promise them with heaven If they get killed in wars then the bi***ies developed it to bomb themselves which is to be similar with a killing in battles .. This is the fundamental way .. And there is a huge disagreement of this from the Muslims and they interpret the word " Jihad " subjectively To be a jihad of the self which sacrifice yourself against the bad things like sex don't eat with left hand , etc
2 ) Like the stories of Moses and Jesus but yeah they have another copy of the stories not same .
3 ) Like the concepts you got it from the stories e.g. Pharaoh was an absolute king and he said I'm the god so the concept they got is Pharaoh' was suffering and he died because he was put himself in the face of god and forced his authority so the god revenged for that and then the authority of the real god should be there ( that's one of the main concepts of the priesthood of Islam that exist in Saudi Arabia now ) they also have anothers verses depends on it like ( The judgments for the god ,etc ) ..
About what hateful verses mentioned with @Cognostic most of them are actually stories like the Jews part and all of it those are the words of god so God told us that to let us know what Jews did at that time it's not a commands ...
Believe me guys the worst problems of Muslims it's inside their community it's not outside They have an epistemology problem and that's why they're suffering ideologically .. In the end about the lie No they can't lie It's the opposite they need to find a logical thinking in the religion that makes them away from the terrorists ... For me I stopped to be phobic what Muslims think about me If I'm a secular well I announce that always .. I need to understand the humans more I believe what drive the human being isn't the ideology only Nope there is biological bases even the way we think If you understand it you gonna understand why your spending of money increase when you earn more money !! Money is the real god for me , Love you ❤
I am not distrustful of any muslim that I know. I am however distrustful of islam as a flawed religion. Anyone who follows a religion with distinct flaws, such as death for apostates, without realizing this flaw, is not someone I would consider competent to make decisions for me.
It is difficult to know how I should act towards someone who follows Muhammad, a person who encouraged his followers to commit violence. I tend to think there is a disconnect between how most Muslims refrain from violence against non-Muslims and what their prophet had in mind. This does not mean however that I am not concerned that Islam normalizes violence amongst its adherents and causes more than its fair share of violence.
One of my best friend is a muslim, but he uses his brain more than a lot of his muslims brethens.
Trust is not only a matter of violence but for exemple, how do they feel about global warming, if they think of their god "magicing" the world for them?
You say he is a friend. What does he do with verses like the following....
The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Allah will destroy non-muslim cultures. 7:138-9
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Stay away from non-Muslims. They are all liars. 9:107
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Disbelievers are wicked and have diseased hearts. 9:125
Disbelievers are liars. 16:39
Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
Your only friends should be Allah, Muhammad, and those who believe correctly (Muslims). 5:55
This is what your friend is being taught about you? I would love to see a logical response to the Quaran and its teachings regarding instructions to avoid friendships, mistrust, avoid contracts, and avoid all relationships with the infidel. These are the things the Imam sings. These are the teachings of the Quaran.
I should further clarify my previous statement.
There are Muslims who are religious yet have completely denounced violence as some Christians have done. Those I feel I can trust, but only to a certain point. Those I identify as Islamics (the hard-core Muslims) I cannot trust. I do not believe in any violence unless it is necessary, such as to stop a man from beating a woman, any adult from beating a child, someone who wishes harm to me and mine, etc. If you wish to commit violence, then sometimes, violence is necessary to stop you. Not always, but sometimes. However, using violence in order to defend against those who wish to commit violence is actually in defense, not offense. Huge difference. Think Critically about it.
And here is something I also believe in that is stolen from Stephen R Donaldson's novel, Lord Foul's Bane.
Do not hold if boldness is enough.
Do not hurt if holding is enough.
Do not wound if hurting is enough.
Do not maim if wounding is enough.
Do not kill if maiming is enough.
The greatest warriors are those
who do not need to kill.
rmfr