Hey there.
I've been evaluating my beliefs, and as I've been looking I found the absolute travesty of moral incompetence that is the Old Testament. I didn't believe, or didn't want to believe, that something from the Bible could be so reprehensibly toxic and promote barbaric ideas of capital punishment for literally any "sin." The problem I find myself in is that, what if God is real though? Then all these horrible acts would somehow be legitimized? I don't want to think about that. I keep on running the experiment in my head, "what if God orders the genocide of literally every non-heterosexual person alive and tortures them to death?" Now if this was done by some foreign country, I'd scoff at how disgusting it is. But as soon as it's my God who's advocating for it, my mind is met with a sense of indifferent "it is what it is." Like, I completely justify it in my head. "Well, everyone is horrible anyway, right? Whatever punishment God doles out, we wholeheartedly deserve." I always thought that in other religions this idea of compliance for the negation of human rights was appalling, and yet in my own religion I let it slide. I feel insane. No, no one deserves punishment for belief in a different religion, or for being who God literally created them to be.
I'm so worried the Bible is real, and that all of this is somehow condoned by the supposedly kindest Being in all of existence. Is there some method to stop caring? Is there a way to just drop it? Otherwise, I'll somehow rationalize the suffering of others because God said it should be that way. Which is horrible.
Please don't think I'm nuts. I've only come to this realization today and am low-key freaking out over its implications that human life is completely disposable. It's completely contradictory to what I was taught, that God was loving and caring.
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Re: OP
...*face palm*.... Uh, hey there, JOjo. Wait... That should actually be J0jo, right? (A "zero" instead of a capital letter "O".) Hmmm... Uh, anyway, if you are genuinely here for sincere reasons, then I want to apologize in advance for what follows. But, to be honest, you could not have picked a worse user name at the moment. Because if this is actually our dear ol' Jo making an attempt at using a sock puppet just to pretend he is an "atheist in need", then Jo is being even more low-down and dishonest and pathetically slimy than even I gave him credit for being. Tsk-tsk-tsk... Shame on you. And, looking back over the OP, I have noticed it does have a certain familiar writing style to it. Hmmmm.....
So, be that as it may, I do believe I will hold off on any further comments until I see how the writer of the OP responds... *tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock....*
Oh, yeah, I guess I should have looked in advance. I apologize; I only started looking at the forum posts and found out about this Jo guy after I made my account. I just came up with the name because I wanted to ask the question in a hurry, and I instantly thought of the nickname of a guy from my favorite anime. I don't know how much this is worth, but I'm not the Jo that's been running around. Take that as you will.
I'm seriously just here to listen to what you guys have to say. I have no argument planned, at all. If you feel like I'm not authentic, then it was just poor timing on my part. I'll be more careful not to fudge things up like this next time I make an account on a forum.
RE: The reprehensible Old Testament? Obviously you have missed the best parts of the new testament. The idea that an all powerful loving god required the blood sacrifice of his own son to save the creation he, himself, created. The idea that you must hate your mother, father, sister, brother, aunts and uncles to be a disciple of Jesus. The fact that most Christians are going to burn in hell, for every sect knows it is the sect up the street that is not following the true teachings of the Lord. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. .... Up to the last moment of the capture of the city by Titus, men were buoyed up with ... any work of necessity from the solemn service and worship of God on the sabbath day.
Matthew 24:11 KJV · Matthew 24:11 NIV · Matthew 24:11 ESV · Matthew 24:12
Did you miss the fact that Jesus himself is a bigot and warns disciples not to cast pearls before swine. Any city that does not listen to the disciples will be destroyed. Don't think about tomorrow. Don't worry about your family. Don't think about school, rent, saving, your own children or anything else, just drop everything and follow Jesus. Consider the fucking lilies. They don't work. They don't worry. God cares for them and he will care for you. If you think there is any morality in the New Testament, you just have not read it.
RE: Then all these horrible acts would somehow be legitimized? How do you possibly legitimize ripping open the stomachs of pregnant women and dashing their babies onto rocks while laughing? How do you legitimize butchering every first born child in Egypt because you were angry at the king. How do you legitimize supporting slavery and the ownership of human beings. How do you legitimize your orders to kill anyone who disagrees or tries to sway you from your belief in God. How do you legitimize blood sacrifice and cannibalistic rituals. If the God of the Bible is real - HE IS NOT WORTH WORSHIPING.
RE: Like, I completely justify it in my head. "Getting a good person to do horrific acts, it takes religion." THINK ABOUT THE SHIT YOU ARE JUSTIFYING. WHAT KIND OF A HUMAN BEING ARE YOU? God doles out, we wholeheartedly deserve. ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE? 42 kids deserved to be ripped apart by bears for calling a man "baldy." Everyone on the planet deserved to be drowned to death so a drunken sod and his sons and their wives could start is all over again? WTF kind of insanity is this?
RE: Is there some method to stop caring? YES! ACTUALLY READ THE FRIGGING BIBLE. Stop listening to what people say is in the bible and read it for yourself.
Where is God loving and caring in the bible. He requires human sacrifice. He demands complete love and obedience. Even your loving Jesus asserts, "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus himself declared "think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34).
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” Luke 12:51-53
If any man comes to me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers and sisters, yes and his own life too, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:25 and 18:29
YOU CAN ONLY GET GOOD FROM THE BIBLE BY CHERRY PICKING YOUR WAY AROUND ALL THE HORRIFIC VERSES AND PRETENDING THERE IS A LOVING GOD SOMEPLACE WITHIN. If you seriously look for that loving god, HE IS NOT THERE. A monster is in his place pretending to be loving.
IF THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS REAL, HE IS NOT WORTH WORSHIPING.
Thank you for being honest with me. I recognize my thought pattern as irrational, and I really like the quote you used. You're absolutely right in that I myself haven't actually read that much (or really any) of the Bible. I'll definitely look into it. I think the problem is my being raised with these false ideas about Christianity. I really do need to read the book for myself.
Please do. You have invested a large portion of your life to what is contained within the bible. I suggest you start to read the entire bible.
Cognostic made a great suggestion to watch that video by NonStampCollector. Because although he parodies one aspect of the bible, the simple fact is that this book of approximately 1,200 pages has over 33,000 different christian sects. In other words, you can read the bible and come away with many interpretations. The bible is the greatest multiple choice book ever.
I was raised catholic and they repeat the same stories in a 2 or 3 year cycle (I can’t remember). I’ve witnessed multiple other Christian preachers hop from book to book, testament to testament cherry picking versus to create whatever message they want to send taking things completely out of context. Are there some places where good morals can be found? Yes, but there are plenty of parts that contradict others and places where god is a hateful prick.
I gave up caring by the time I was in my teens. At the time my logic was this. I don’t want to pretend that I believe and if God and Jesus do exist and they are forgiving they wouldn’t punish me for not being a blind follower. And if God was in fact the prick he often was, I wasn’t going to bow to him.
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Jojo: There are so many good sources on line but for a beginner I recommend some baby steps. Nonstampcollector is a great way to start. He says it all with satire and humor to get you thinking and then if you begin to actually check on the things he says, you will begin to understand.
Quiz Show is my favorite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
Well Jojo welcome to AR, first the good news, there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any deity, and this includes the amoral barbaric genocidal deity of the bible and Koran.
The fear will dissipate gradually as you begin to realise there is no objective reason to believe any deity exists.
We are free to act as our own conscience dictates, and all human morality is subjective. So if you find the cruel barbarism of the old testament repugnant then well done, it just means you're a decent person, with a good moral compass, who can empathise with the suffering of others.
J0jo You are wrestling with the opposing positions that your god is loving and caring, yet this god's history is one of blood and cruelty.
One can not ignore this many passages illustrating this god's cruelty. it is there, it is plainly obvious, it is part of this god's pattern of behavior. And never forget that this god holds the threat of eternal pain and suffering in hell if you do not bend your knee to this god.
You chose, (yes, you did choose) to worship this cruel and malicious god.
As an atheist I follow my own internal moral compass, not what is dished out to me from a book written almost two thousand years ago by barbaric tribes.
I was raised in Canada, under the United Church of Canada. This sect is not fire and brimestone and not fundamentalist, but rather liberal and mainly focused on the positive aspects and tales from jesus, such as loving everyone, and not being cruel.
My suggestion J0jo is to move to a less fundamentalist sect where your can still practice your beliefs but with a lot less hatred and cruelty practiced by many other christian sects.
Mark Twain said that it's easier to stay out than to get out. That's especially true of religion. If you can avoid their clutches until adulthood, you're likely to stay free of all their indoctrination and "mind-forg'd manacles".
That's why religions are so keen to get their claws on children, the earlier the better. "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man" is the most sinister statement I've ever heard.
""Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man" is the most sinister statement I've ever heard."
Especially from catholic priests. Religions interest in children sadly is never altruistic.
@"Give me the child for the first seven years"
The US army can do it in 10 weeks, depending on your MOS. If you qualify for military occupational specialty you are too smart to just step in front of a bullet so you will be given additional training. In the end, they will convince you that your only worth on this planet is to do things their way.
James Clavell in "The Children's Story" turns a bunch of American first graders into good little Atheist Communists in a single day.
What someone with intent could do with a child in seven years would be ...... insane....... I can't even imagine.
@Jojo
You have nothing to fear. The bible, god, (any god) and any other religious book etc. all of the various god ideas written and spoken about are completely unevidenced in any meaningful way. They are simply vocalized/written human thought expressions. The only vocalized/written human thought expressions we need to actually worry about are ones that are actually empirically evidenced.
Which I repeat: none of the god ideas are evidenced in any way.
If you do not believe me, ask anyone, is there any actual testable evidence for any of their god ideas or accompanying books? Anything at all that is not just ultimately: "talk." You will find out as many others have, there is absolutely none.
Worrying about any of these god ideas is exactly the same as: worrying about the "fluffy-foo-super-cute-cuddly-puppy" god I just made up. Oh and that god I just made up? It will torture you for 1000 years if you do not believe in it.
If there was actual evidence for any of the god ideas, we would ALL know about it, it would be known to everyone, and be about as obvious as: the sun will rise from the direction we call "east" tomorrow morning.
Re: "How to get out"
1. Open door
2. Step through doorway
3. Close door behind you
4. Ta-daaaaaa!
And 5. Lock the door!
Jeez I thought he'd never leave.
Now where are his cookies and eggnog stashed?
Re: "Now where are his cookies and eggnog stashed?"
HEY!... *attempting to open door*... Son of a-... *patting pockets for door key*... *no door key in pockets*... Aw, dammit!... *pounding loudly on door*.... HEY! Open up in there, you clipped-wing, bird-brained cookie thief!... *kicking door repeatedly*... Shit! I forgot I just installed that industrial strength security door!.... *more pounding on door*.... OPEN THE FRIGGIN' DOOR, GRIN!... Asshole!.... You better not be going through my midget cowboy porn mags!.... *more pounding on door*.... AND STAY AWAY FROM MY LUBE COLLECTION!... Are you listening to me?!?.... *door pounding continues*...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlpTao-c21o
...wow...must be complete weekly editions of midget cowboy porn going back for several years...would probably be worth a lot if there werent so many pages stuck together...whoa pong! What a stink! That would be the lube collection...the smell warns me to stay away...whats over here? No. Cookie crumbs and discarded empty eggnog bottles...too late...oh and a banana skin and ape shit...signs of the Cog! Damn you. Damn you to hell!
Now how to get out of here.....
" promote barbaric ideas of capital punishment for literally any "sin.""
If you think that is the case, you've been studying the bible wrong.
To understand the OT, you need to learn it in Hebrew and understand how to read it.
"The problem I find myself in is that, what if God is real though?"
It is, and i can't see how it might be a problem?
"Then all these horrible acts would somehow be legitimized?"
No.
The most important rule of the Hebrew bible is to treat others the best you can. ANY law / rule / idea / concept that is against it, is considered a "sin".
What you might think of as a horrible thing, is probably due to misunderstanding it.
"what if God orders the genocide of literally every non-heterosexual person alive and tortures them to death?"
You have many mistakes in that statement.
1. God doesn't order. it is not a creature that can give you orders.
2. Even if it will "give orders", why would God "command" a genocide?
3. It seems you see God as an actual being that treats us and manipulates us like puppets. That is far (at least by the Jewish doctrine) very far from it. God is not an actual creature. It will be the same as saying Electricity will punish people who touch it.
"But as soon as it's my God "
Its not your God. it simply is God.
"Well, everyone is horrible anyway, right? Whatever punishment God doles out, we wholeheartedly deserve."
No! No one is horrible!
No one, and i really do mean NO ONE, deserves pain.
"No, no one deserves punishment for belief in a different religion, or for being who God literally created them to be."
Indeed.
I would even take it farther and tell you that what you believe is exactly what you should believe.
"I'm so worried the Bible is real"
Instead, maybe you should be worried about being a good person. what you believe doesn't matter as long as you are a peaceful and loving being.
"Is there some method to stop caring? Is there a way to just drop it?"
There is, I really advise against it :)
And also, just be a good person. who cares about what your beliefs are?
"Otherwise, I'll somehow rationalize the suffering of others because God said it should be that way."
There is no rationalization to cause suffer. And God doesn't really say it.
"God was loving and caring."
It is, but don't mix it with a "Human love".
God cannot "not love".
Yeah.. it literally cannot.
not because God can't do it, simply because it is not an emotional creature.
It seems you are "stuck" with a very childish understanding of what God is and it can really cause a lot of confusion.
@ Segev Moran
"It seems you are "stuck" with a very childish understanding of what God is and it can really cause a lot of confusion."
And why is that?
Is it because a book that was intended for English speaking people, and written in English turned out to be gibberish?
Is it because everyone wants to put a spin on how to interpret the bible to suit their own personal ideals?
Is it because the old testament is a piece of crap as a book of instructions?
Personally I come from a very technical background, where manuals were my bible, and it was simple, take them 100% literally. That way there is no misunderstanding or confusion.
And if there ever was any confusion, it was the responsibility and fault of the author, not the reader.
Segey, do not chastise me (or anyone else) or say I have a childish understanding. This bible has over 30,000 interpretations, it is the greatest multiple choice book of all time. And anyone can derive their own personal interpretation of bible passages.
Segovia Moran, you wrote, “To understand the OT, you need to learn it in Hebrew and understand how to read it.”
Why? Most folks who follow it are not fluent in ancient Hebrew. They read one of a multitude of translations and come away with what they want. Personally, I don’t object to religious books. I object to the behavior of those who worship, interpret, and follow them.
Segev Moron: RE: "No. The most important rule of the Hebrew bible is to treat others the best you can. ANY law / rule / idea / concept that is against it, is considered a "sin". What you might think of as a horrible thing, is probably due to misunderstanding it.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA .....
"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, ... (Love to you if you love me.) 3 Generations of innocent - sins of the father past on for 3 generations. OH! It must be a misunderstanding. HORSESHIT!
“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife [c]of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8you shall not [d]consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."
DEUT 13
ANY SCRIPTURE CONTRARY TO THE ABOVE SIMPLY DEMONSTRATED "CONTRADICTIONS." AND THAT THE OT LIKE THE NEW T IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED.
RE: 1. God doesn't order. it is not a creature that can give you orders. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
The penalty for breaking even one Commandment is death!
"You shall have no other gods before Me." (The sentence of transgression of the First Commandment is death!)
2. ""You shall not make for yourself any graven image." ( If you have done this you cannot enter God's Kingdom)
3. "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain." (The sentence of transgression of the Third Commandment is death!)
4. "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy." (The sentence of transgression of the Fourth Commandment is death! )
5. "Honor your father and your mother." (Those who dishonor their father and mother cannot enter the Kingdom of God. An unruly boy is taken before the elders and then to the edge of town where he is stoned to death.)
6. "You shall not murder." ( The sentence of transgression of the Sixth Commandment is death!)
7. "You shall not commit adultery." "That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery. (“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10 ) ( “If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman.)
Deuteronomy 22:22
8. "You shall not steal." (The sentence of transgression of the Eighth Commandment is death!)
9. "You shall not bear false witness." (The sentence of transgression of the Ninth Commandment is death!)
10. "You shall not covet". The sentence of transgression of the tenth Commandment is death!
BUT GOD DOES NOT KILL YOU, YOU KILL YOURSELF. FUCKING HORSESHIT. GOD HOLDS A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND THEN TELLS YOU THAT YOU HAVE A FREE CHOICE. LOVING AND CARING 'MY ASS."
re: Its not your God. it simply is God. (NO IT IS YOUR FUCKED UP VERSION OF GOD!) IF IT WAS JUST GOD, THERE WOULD NOT BE 30,000 CHRISTIAN SECTS, 12 OR SO JEWISH SECTS, 8 ISLAMIC SECTS, AND THEN YOU HAVE IDIOTS LIKE JEWS FOR JESUS. WTF IS THAT? IF IT WAS "SIMPLY GOD" THERE WOULD BE SOME AGREEMENT.
GOD IS LOVING AND CARING _ GIVE ME A BREAK! OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE JUST NEVER READ THE BIBLE.
@ Segev
If I had a dollar for every theist who comes up with that chestnut............
That is a pretty insane claim Segev. If you are right, then pretty much everyone who translates the bible need to be fired, and sued for fraud; because every English translation I've looked at is packed with things you seem to be claiming it does not contain.
@Nyarlathotep: "Insane claim" is a severe understatement. And yet, I find myself asking. "Are there words strong enough?" Where is Tin Man when you need him?
...*exiting bathroom*... *sound of toilet flushing*... *breathing heavily*... *folding magazine in half and placing in back pocket*... *wiping sweat from brow*... Phew! That was almost too much like work!... *reading thread*... Oh, someone called my name? Hmmmm..... Oh, about the Segev dude. Ah, yeah, I was wondering about him myself. Claims to be an atheist, but certainly doesn't act like one.
Soooooo.... Let's seeee...... *reading last post from Segev*..... Oh, my... Wow.... Goodness gracious me.... Golly gee willikers.... *shaking head in disbelief*.... Dear-oh-dear... Hmmm... Tell ya what, before I break out my Butterknife, I want to give ol' Segev a chance to explain himself. With any luck, maybe... (just maybe, but doubtful)... maybe Mr. Moran was attempting to use a bit of subtle (VERY subtle) satire in his post? Just for grits and wiggles, though, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment. Still, he has a bit of explaining to do, obviously.
Yooooooo-hooooooo! Mr. SegevMoran! We here in the AR have some.... well.... let's just say we have some suspicions about your classifying yourself as an atheist. Would you please be so kind as to clear up this bit of confusion for us? You are sending mixed signals, and we are already quite the paranoid and highly anxious group here even on a good day. And a newcomer like you coming in and acting strange like you are doing just makes most of us have to double up on our meds. Personally, I simply cannot afford that, because the meds I take are really expensive. So, for the sake of those of us living on a tight budget, would you please help put our minds at ease by explaining your conduct? That would be very much appreciated. Otherwise, I may be forced to use my Butterknife. And I HATE when that happens... *heavy sigh*... *hanging head sadly*....
I also wondered if Segev is an atheist.
How the fuck do I get out?
@Grin Re: "How the fuck do I get out?"
...*snickering*.... Tee-hee-hee! Uh, yeah, about that... *trying to control laughter*... Remember what I said about the industrial strength security door?... *snicker*... Well, not only does it keep people out, it also keeps people IN. (Please don't ask why.) Anyway, once the door is locked, I am the only one who can open it from the inside..... IF I have the key. Which I don't, otherwise I would already be in there. And even if you find the key, it won't work for you. So, it looks like we are both stuck until the home security folks get here with a blow torch and plastic explosives. Meaning you might not want to be near the door when they arrive. Oh... AND STAY AWAY FROM MY MIDGET COWBOY PORN MAGS!
WHAT!!! Awwwwwwww...fuck.... never mind.
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