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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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One of the most interesting OP and threads I have read so far. I don't fully understand the complexities involved in AI but if they eventually evolve at a level considered superior to ours then my question is: Will AI's eventually have free will and possibly be the only ones/things having free will?
@In Spirit
This is definitely taking this conversation in a different but related direction (but interesting to me.)
First problem of course is we have to better define "if they evolve at a level considered superior to ours."
This is a hard line to draw. Especially something as open ended as your statement. For instance: on a physical level, the "machinery" that would fire this intelligence is in many ways already superior to our own brains.
Our brains our limited by the size of our skull, (a computer does not have such limits) and had to evolve in a way they did not take to many resources (calories) to operate. Additionally the brain moves/operates at biological speed. Information travels in our brain very very slowly compared to a computer. Maybe 50 feet a second compared to the speed of light moving at close to 1 million feet per second. A computer does not tire, can be backed up, replaced, and network with additional processing resources very well. Targeted AI pushes these days can do some pretty amazing stuff, detect cancer at rates sometimes better then experienced doctors in the field can, and look at 1 million pictures and determine if its a cat very quickly and accurately. But they have yet to have a free reign self learning "AI" that can even manage an obstacle course equipped with 6 legs as well as an ant can with a brain smaller than a pinhead.
AI as we mostly use it these days, purposely has written in no chance at free will. And it would be very wise on our part to make sure it stays that way. Human beings have rose to be far and away the most dominant species on the planet. And they have done this with one advantage: the human brain. Giving AI the chance to rise to, and above human level "intelligence" and it could very easily dominate us humans in a way we probably would not even be aware of, much like how animals can not even begin to comprehend why humans are so dominant over them.
Getting more to the philosophical side of things. I actually think AI even a self learning self code writing AI will never approach free will to level of humans unless the AI started writing in stuff to allow itself to be wrong, to be creative, to not be as perfect and efficent as it possibly could be.
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LogicFTW
"First problem of course is we have to better define "if they evolve at a level considered superior to ours."
Thanks for pointing that out. So much easier to recognize it when someone else points it out and thanks for your reply.
I tend to agree with the points you brought up. Makes sense. As I was thinking about it, I was starting to have this fear that these "machines would out do us to the point of having free will (and claim to be gods as well...lol). As you said I hope we don't allow it to get to that point.
No, this type intelligence is solely based on programming thus bound by determinism.
@ uncle cog
I get the, every action has a reaction, and predetermined cause and effect. therefore everything is predetermined, and choice is just the difference between different available reactions. Although, doesn't deciding which reaction is more suitable, fall outside of determinism?
Do I get a banana for that one?
@doG
Not if it is determined. :-)
The mental act of choosing between two options, is not determined...the two options are, but the choice isn't.
@doG: How do you know?
Hmmmmmm...Well seeing each memory is not initially predetermined, I would say a new choice, and a new memory, is unencumbered. Each new memory is RNA produced at the moment, and is initiated and grown from the cell body/soma, without encumbrance of being determined. That seems to contradict determinism no?
@Dog: Memory only happens after the fact. It is necessarily predetermined by the action that occurred. Unless of course it is a false memory and predetermined by an unstable mental condition. The only reason you believe something could have been different is that you tell yourself something could have been different after the fact. At the moment of choice, you can choose or not choose, refusing to play is simply a choice not to choose but how can you KNOW the choice is undetermined? Memory is not created at the moment. It is crated after the fact. It contradicts determinism - No!
And is it predetermined if you do?
Joe is a contemporary robot, and Joe is carrying a box. This box has a button and a screen. When the button is pressed, the box prints the word "left" or "right" on the screen. Joe has been programmed to just push the button over and over, each time reading the output and taking a step in the direction indicated. You aren't allowed to open the box, but according to the manual: it outputs "left" 50% of the time (and right 50% of the time), and the output it totally random.
If we assume the manual is accurate:
If the output is "totally random", I would deem that to mean that it is not determined by any law: I don't think it would be meaningful to say that it outputs "left" 50% of the time and "right" the other 50% of the time.
If the robot is designed to have those two options each happening 50% of the time, it does not have free will. If the output is totally random, the robot has no agency whatsoever.
@Sapporo
OK, but is it deterministic?
Surely something is deterministic if it is an isolated system, and if it is totally random, it cannot be said to exist in any system. It is only possible to say (according to my understanding) that if it is totally random, it is not deterministic.
Can Joe choose not to press the button, or to press it more or less frequently? Also does have to step in the direction indicated each time?
Would a good analogy be animal instincts which are compelling an animal to act/react in a certain way to a given scenario? Humans seem to be able to override those instincts anyway.
I still like the Hitch's answer, when a theists insisted he answer whether he had free will.
"Yes ok then, I have free will. In fact you might say I have no choice but to have it."
I would say 1.
He will always be deterministic because he is programmed.
Interestingly, this scenario will get this bot into trouble...Joe has a short life span....and is not a viable candidate for survival in our reality.
I asked the "Joe the robot questions" to try to expose differences in what different people mean when they say free will; but I think my attempt was a failure.
I still wonder if there are considerable difference there.
I imagine you are right that there are signficant differences on what people mean when they say free will.
Going to read up on it some to make sure that I am at least on the same page as the experts in that area of study.
Does randomness = will? I think not. Shall we add to Joe's programming. After Joe presses the button each time, a thought is generated in his electronic brain. "I could have chosen not to press the button if I wanted to." After Joe steps to the left of right, depending on instructions from the box, a thought is generated in his mind, "I actually could have gone the other way if I really wanted to."
1. Does Joe think he has free will?
2. Could he really not push the button or move in a way not indicated?
*trying to sound smart* What about the quantum world. What about Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle? If consciousness relies on a flow of electrons and that flow is profoundly undetermined - and we can never model it - the whole “take the atoms and reverse time and the outcome should be the same” - that argument doesn’t hold!
The electrons will take on new positions statistically speaking. This does nothing for free will, however it does seem to trump the deterministic hypothesis.
@RAT SPIT - Hey ratty - I threw the bait out there and knew you could not resist it. Thank you so much for your subjective assertion. I think we should turn back time and do the experiment now. (Well- that wasn't very successful, shall we try again?) (What the fuck??? Here we are again.) I'm feeling a bit determined right now..... Hmmm.... That means you will disagree with this post.
delete
@Diotrephes: Not when religious nuts are throwing them around. ( I guess they can fly or not fly.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOsEmHzq1c
This kid looks like he might have so free will. How he stopped himself from punching the old guy in the face is a mystery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8
So it seems determinism and free will are not the only options; somewhere in the middle that is not deterministic and does not have free will. I'm not sure what to call this third option.
GOD.
LOL
@Nyarlathotep: "Will" There is nothing free about it but using it can move you to make a decision.
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