How does one respond to Hitler, Stalin & Mao Moral Arguments?

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Abhijeet Lamsar's picture
How does one respond to Hitler, Stalin & Mao Moral Arguments?

Many Theists propose that most gruesome mass murderers in the past were atheists(Hitler, Stalin and Mao). How do we even respond to them?

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Aposteriori unum's picture
Say:" so what? Are you saying

Say:" so what? Are you saying that only atheists can do that stuff?" If they say yes, have a list of religious people that have committed atrocities ready for them. Then you can simply say, well... Next point please cause your first statement is deeply flawed. Oh and you can kindly point them to the fact that Hitler actually belongs to the religious side. Basically that argument is a non argument. So easy to blow it up right in their face.

mykcob4's picture
1) Hitler was a devout

1) Hitler was a devout catholic.
2) Stalin was a trained catholic priest.
3) Mao used religion as the motivation for mass murders.

There were no mass murders carried out by these men or by any other person in the name and for atheism.
However, genocide, slavery, theft, war, terrorism, have been carried out in the name of chistianity, islam, and even buddhism.

ZeffD's picture
This is the point:

This is the point:
"There were no mass murders carried out by these men or by any other person in the name and for atheism."
The implication religionists insist on is that bad things happen due to atheism. However, as pointed out above, these events weren't driven by disbelief in god(s), nor were they due to any lack of religion.

I understand the evidence that Hitler had no belief in god(s) (as well as the evidence of his RCatholicism) but that isn't what drove Hitler. He was obviously motivated by his National Socialist ideology which he thought must clash militarily with Red Communism. He was also driven by discredited racial theories. Here are some of his own words: ...
Hitler told Stein how he had been overcome when he saw the Lance on display in the museum in Vienna. He explained: “I slowly became aware of a mighty presence around it. I sensed a great destiny awaited me and I knew beyond contradiction that the blood in my veins would one day become the Folk Spirit of my people”. Unquote. Source:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=8860&start=15
Does he sound like a rational atheist to anyone?!

The difference between Hitler and Stalin was that Hitler found he could use religion to his advantage sometimes. The Bolsheviks faced an Orthodox Church aligned firmly with the Tsar and establishment. That is why it had to go. It confronted the Communist ideology. German religious groups did little effectively to oppose Hitler and many stood behind the war effort. His only interest was in not alienating religionists from National Socialism or his person.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao were driven by ideology and events and not by their religion or lack of any. Organised religion was either an aid to them or their enemy according to where it assisted or impeded their ideological and political aims.

Abhijeet Lamsar's picture
Please also provide the

Please also provide the information for so called theists who killed but in name of "god". Are the stats greater for Hitler, Stalin , Mao or the religious fundamentalists.

Sushisnake's picture
@Abhi

@Abhi

I can't give you the names of individuals, but if you check a little you'll know who the popes and monarchs were. It doesn't really matter - the culprit was Christianity.

The Crusades: 1-3 million
The Inquisition: 1 million
30 Years War: 3 - 11 million
French Wars of Religion: 2-4 million

I haven't looked into mass murders carried out by the other religions in the name of god, but they exist. You might be interested ( and horrified by) what happened after the Indian Partition in 1947, all in the name of religion. Tens of thousands massacred. Hacked to death in the streets. Trains arriving in stations, with blood dripping from the doors and no one left alive.

Religious violence is tbe deadliest of all, Abhi, because they have God on their side. They're carrying out God's will. They're obeying His laws. Doesn’t matter what the god's name is. Doesn’t matter if it isn’t actually a god - ask the Rohingya massacred by Buddhists in Myanmar.

https://theconversation.com/how-the-partition-of-india-happened-and-why-...

algebe's picture
@Ahbi_Lamsar: "Please also

@Ahbi_Lamsar: "Please also provide the information for so called theists who killed but in name of "god"."

Look up the Taiping Rebellion in China. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom movement was a Christian sect started by a man who thought he was Jesus' brother. Estimates of the death toll between between 1850 and 1864 range from 20 million up to 100 million.

In Rwanda, Catholic missionaries fomented tribal conflict between the Hutus and Tutsis. In 1994, that boiled over into a conflict that killed close to a million. Priests and nuns have been charged as war criminals.

Other Christian-inspired atrocities that resulted in major death tolls include the sieges of Constantinople and Jerusalem by the Crusaders, and the St. Bartholomew's Day in France in 1572.

Another major atrocity was the massacre of the Cathars in the early 13th century. The Catholic church sought to exterminate the Cathars over differences in ideology.

There are plenty more. And that's just the Christians. Islam and Hinduism also have major death tolls.

watchman's picture
@ Abhi_Lamsar .....

@ Abhi_Lamsar .....

Check out the Tai-Ping Rebellion ....

"The Taiping Rebellion (1851–1864), usually known in Chinese after the name of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (t 太平天國, s 太平天国, Tàipíng Tiānguó) proclaimed by the rebels, was a rebellion in southern China inspired by a Hakka named Hong Xiuquan, who had claimed that he was the brother of Jesus Christ. Most sources put the total deaths at about 20 million, although some claim tolls as high as 50 million"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

MCDennis's picture
Even IF we agree they were

Even IF we agree they were atheists, so what? Do you think that Stalin and Mao murdered because they were atheists or because they were communists?

Sushisnake's picture
It was neither. It was

It was neither. It was because they were brutal, authoritarian dictators. You get that with dictators. Caligula, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin. Pinochet. And that's just off the top of my head. If I thought about it for awhile, I could fill a page with names.

( Incidentally, the former USSR and modern day China aren't communist, they're authoritarian state capitalist. In Marxist communist theory, all means of production are owned in common by the people, not individuals or the state. The people not only own all the resources and means of production, they direct their utilisation DEMOCRATICALLY. Communism is a utopian ideal of direct democracy. It probably doesn't matter much - marxist communist democracy is never gonna happen, any more than capitalist democracy will- I just hate hearing communism slandered by equating it with Stalin and Mao. It's like calling two-party elections of party preselected candidates by around half the eligible population every few years "democracy". End of rant)

algebe's picture
@MCD: "because they were

@MCD: "because they were atheists or because they were communists?"

I don't think they were even communists. Stalin and Mao behaved exactly like the despotic emperors they replaced.

Sushisnake's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe
There's that Down Under perspective creeping in. Hard to be scared of reds under the bed when they're hanging out in your backyard, hey, Algebe?

algebe's picture
@Sushisnake: "Hard to be

@Sushisnake: "Hard to be scared of reds under the bed when they're hanging out in your backyard"

Which backyard? Do you mean China? They haven't really been communist since Deng. The Vietnamese are also becoming more capitalist than Wall Street. The reds that worry me now are the North Koreans. King Kim sees himself as god and is getting ready to unleash Armageddon. Next time Trump fat-shames him, watch out.

Sushisnake's picture
@algebe.

@algebe.
My crack about reds under the beds was historical. We didn't go so far down the road of panicking about communism. We didn't even ban the Communist Party. We certainly had a taste of it, but nothing like McCarthy inflicted on the US.

I don't see North Korea as a communist country. I see it as something akin to a hereditary monarchy, feudalist, brutally authoritarian and state capitalist economically. China certainly isn't communist- it's a brutally authoritarian oligarchy with state capitalism, and a bit of private capitalism for the party's top dogs.

I don't think Kim has much of an arsenal, Algebe. He hasn't got the means to unleash Armageddon, but his partner in this pissing competition does, several times over. I heard a radio news report today about Kim's latest outrage, his boast about the button being right there on his desk and how we haven't been so close to nuclear war EVER and the thought hit me: is this the GOP administration's angle? The President is deeply unpopular, at home and abroad. Being the President who shows the backbone to use ultimate force, but the humanity to refrain in the end, wouldn’t hurt his image any, would it? It wouldn't be the first time heads of state have rattled the sabre for domestic ratings. And it certainly isn't the first time the Kim dynasty have done it. They do it every time the harvest is expected to fall short - and the harvest is expected to fall short. Feeding people hate takes their minds off their empty bellies, it seems. And fear of external enemies stops them asking for things like food, let alone freedom. It's always amazed me we claim to think the best way to persuade a country to democratise is to threaten it with annihilation if it doesn't. We know from experience it just makes people unite against their common enemy and rally round the flag. Perhaps it's because it isn't for the enemy's ears at all, it's for ours, so we'll rally round the flag?

It doesn't stop me worrying, though. It's been a long time since a weapons test on real people, hasn't it? I'm hoping they learned enough from all the others not to feel the need for more. The weapons industry certainly manages to rake in the money just making them.

algebe's picture
@Sushisnake:

@Sushisnake:

North Korea is also a pirate/bandit state. They've been kidnapping people from Japan, South Korea, and many other countries for the past 50 years like the Barbary Corsairs. They also send small wooden fishing boats out into the Sea of Japan to poach fish in Japan's territorial waters. Dozens of boats and corpses have washed up on the Japanese coast this northern winter. They stole $81 million out of the Bank of Bangladesh's account in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

As for Kim Jong Un's nuclear arsenal, I have family and friends living within a North Korean margin of error of American bases around Tokyo. And missiles aren't the only delivery system. Container ships will do just as well. Be very afraid of a nuclear-armed overgrown teenager with height and weight issues.

I think North Korea can best be summed up as a theocratic slave state under the Kim Trinity. Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are identified in the North Korean Constitution as "eternal leaders."

On a brighter note, two North Korean soldiers escaped over the DMZ recently. Both were malnourished and riddled with massive tapeworms, indicating that even the army is not being fed well. Every sensible dictator knows that you always treat the army well, or your head may end up on a bayonet. We can only hope.

Sushisnake's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe
"We can only hope". Yep.
There's a small degree of black humour in the thought that we might find ourselves in Armageddon because of a pissing contest between two little boys with very big toys. Poor North Korean people. Trapped. No meaure of safety or security to even think about overthrowing the regime. They've never had it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Not on the same scale But

Not on the same scale But Mary, Queen of Scots and James 1st pogrom against "witches" (in reality older women, independent women, herbalists and pagans as well as Downs syndrome children and others) killed thousands in the 16th and 17th centuries.

You have also the 1492 Edit of Alhambra which expelled the Jews from Spain, resulting in the inquisition that killed hundreds of thousands "in the name of God" throughout Europe but with particular ferocity in Spain.

Then you have the 30 years war which was entirely religion based and caused the death and dislocation of millions in Europe. You can pick any king or pope in the timeline for excoriation for that.

Lets not forget Cromwell in Ireland..again hundreds of thousands killed because of their "faith"

In November, 1914, during WWI, the Ottoman caliphate issued a fatwa, or Islamic decree, proclaiming it a “sacred duty” for all Muslims to “massacre” infidels -- specifically naming the “Christian men” of the Triple Entente.

And, one of the most disgusting the Armenian Genocide sanctioned by the Ottoman Caliphate...in the name of God.

Then of course is one of the really early ones. The "Arian Heresy" which resulted in the hunting and killing of an unknown number of Arians ( but certainly again in the thousands) by emperor Valens (364–378) in the East and Basil the Great of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus "Men of god" all...

There are many hundreds and possibly thousands more examples both great and small that resulted in the death of innocents for "glory of god" or other such infantile twaddle.

Murder is a crime, murder and rapine in the name of "god" is barbaric and inhuman. Inexcusable. Each massacre including that of the Yahzidi by Isis are justified by "god".
Fuck your god(s).

Sushisnake's picture
@Old man

@Old man
And then there's the other Mary, Bloody Mary Tudor, Queen of England. All those Protestants burned at the stake.

algebe's picture
Did anyone mention the

Did anyone mention the conquest and depopulation of South America by the church-sanctioned Conquistadors? They destroyed the Incas and the Aztecs, who were themselves murderous theists who sacrificed tens of thousands of men, women, and children to their gods.

Sheldon's picture
Hitler wasn't an atheist. The

Hitler wasn't an atheist, and it's hard to take posts seriously when they start with such an obvious falsehood. The term gruesome murderers is a bit vague as well. Genocide and ethnic cleansing is ubiquitously encouraged by the deity depicted in the bible, and it also makes claims that the deity depicted committed acts of genocide itself, including of course a global genocide using a flood.

Humans can be barbaric and commit atrocities, most often when states bestow individuals with too much power, and the rights of individuals are not protected. This is a fact independent of whether the humans in question delude themselves that a deity exists. As I said Hitler was a catholic feeding off centuries of christian antisemitism, and Germany was overwhelmingly christian, the SS only recruited christians into their ranks in Germany at the start of the war, and they ran the death camps.

I have no problem accepting that humans are capable of startling acts of cruelty, both those who believe in a deity, and those who don't. Far more problematic would be how you rationalise a claim that a deity is perfectly merciful when it is depicted as committing acts of barbaric cruelty including torturing a baby to death because it was conceived out of wedlock, and acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

CyberLN's picture
You ask, “How does one

You ask, “How does one respond to Hitler, Stalin & Mao Moral Arguments?”

Ask them, if they killed in the name of atheism, how does this demonstrates that their gawd exists.

Cognostic's picture
1. Hitler was a Christian -

1. Hitler was a Christian - Christians attempt to distance themselves from Hitler in the same way they distance themselves from Mormons or JWs. Just because Hitler was not your brand of Christian does not mean the Nazi movement was not Christian. Hitler followed the teachings of Martin Luther.

Martin Luther:
"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
"Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"

Hitler:
And then proceeded to outline seven steps “good” Christians were to do:

1) Burn all their synagogues;

2) Destroy their homes and businesses;

3) Burn their prayer and holy books;

4) Forbid the Rabbis to teach;

5) Forbid Jews to travel, combine them in special areas;

6) Take all their money, property and valuables; and

7) Make them slave labor.

Isn’t it strange that Hitler did all the above to the Jews? Where did he get the idea? He even went further and reinstated laws that were once initiated by the Church, such as:

1) Jews could not hold public office;

2) Jewish doctors could not be patronized by non-Jews;

3) Jews had to live in special areas, called Ghettos;

4) Jews had to wear a special badge on their clothing with the name JUDE in it.

Finally, simply read Mein Kampf and Hitler's 25 steps of the National Socialist Program (Nazi Party Platform) POINT 24 CLEARLY STATED - FOR ALL THE WORLD TO READ......

We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The common good before the individual good. (Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz).[10] Has also been translated as "The good of the state before the good of the individual".

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Exactly. Amazing what a bit

Exactly. Amazing what a bit of research will do. Thanks for that I did not realise the extreme correlation between Luther's racism and Hitlers pogrom.

Cognostic's picture
Mao was a religion unto

Mao was a religion unto himself. Communism was the God of the state. You worshiped it or you died. Mao's communism was no different than the Christianity of the Dark ages or the Witch Trials. You believed and were a member of the Church or you were put to death. Mao's communism was religion gone amok.

Sushisnake's picture
@Cog and Old Man

@Cog and Old Man
The Catholic Church didn't drop the doctrine of Jewish Blood Guilt - Jews are Christ-Killers- until Vatican Two in 1965. And it's not just the Catholic Church- it's common throughout Christianity. You'll find reference to it in the 1989 Anglican Book of Prayer. It's the reason the West did little other than applaud when they learned Hitler was incarcerating the Jews. Antisemitism was rife. Of course, the West swore it knew nothing of the extermination of the Jews until afterwards, but reports had gotten out of Germany while it was happening. Christian Antisemitism stopped the West intervening, not ignorance.

algebe's picture
"We were convinced that the

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

From a speech by Adolf HItler, Berlin, October 1934

More interesting quotes here about Hitler's hatred for atheism:

https://www.thoughtco.com/hitler-on-secularism-atheism-248197

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