What, other than the obvious, which is beliefs, makes us different?
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Well atheist are critical thinkers. They don't need a leader to tell them how and what to think. Theist live in a bubble.
Ah, an ex-christian! How long have you been an atheist?
No need to be condescending.
Then why do you think it is so common for ex-christians to be so condescending? Or do you think that atheist in general are no matter if they were formerly warmer or not?
Whaaaaat? I don't think that it is common for "ex-christians" to be condescending. Why are YOU telling ME what I think?
mykckob, it was sarcasm. You were calling me condescending when I was pretty sure that you were being condescending.
@Pathway Machine
"What, other than the obvious, which is beliefs, makes us different?"
We have a better understanding of reality and morality than the guy who thinks that the most evil character ever imagined it somehow a good guy.
A pattern emerges. Another ex-christian with a superiority complex. Interesting.
hah, apart from personal attacks, you seem to agree with my claim that the theistic god is the most evil character imaginable?
right?
If not, you have the chance to speak your mind.
But seriously accusing me of being biased about my conclusions is not going to work.
You asked a question, I answered.
If you do not like the truth it is not my problem.
Next question?
Jeff: "hah, apart from personal attacks, you seem to agree with my claim that the theistic god is the most evil character imaginable?
right?
If not, you have the chance to speak your mind."
Pathway: He possibly is the most evil character around, after all, Isaiah 45:7 KJV says He created evil. But I don't see what that has to do with either his possible existence, or this discussion. I didn't ask you if you liked him.
Jeff: "But seriously accusing me of being biased about my conclusions is not going to work.
You asked a question, I answered.
If you do not like the truth it is not my problem."
Pathway: Why did you bring that up?
"Pathway: Why did you bring that up?"
I brought it up because A thistic god is claimed to be a loving/just/merciful god not an evil god.
"But I don't see what that has to do with either his possible existence, or this discussion."
I answered the question perfectly why are you claiming that it is not related?
You asked:
"What, other than the obvious, which is beliefs, makes us different?"
I replied:
"We have a better understanding of reality and morality than the guy who thinks that the most evil character ever imagined it somehow a good guy."
= we atheist can recognize the description of an evil god while theist cannot because they think he is good.
It is well related to the discussion.
Theists think that the perfect loving father is:
the father that is never there in this life,
the father that lets them starve to death,
the father that would create a baby to let it burn alive
the father that would create a planet with so much death and destruction
the father that would crate and engineer the suffering of every human being that will ever exist.
the father that would demand worship or he would punish with eternal torture.
etc...
We sane people do not think that any decent moral father would even dream of doing anything remotely like that.
But theists are not sane people.
That is the difference.
They lost so much touch with reality that they do not know what morality is just to excuse their god from all this evil and think somehow that this insanity is somehow perfectly good.
Jeff,
Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it. So far in our answers to the question posed by this thread, what difference is there between atheist and theist, we have critical thinking, independence, and that we have more in common than not. Your answer was sanity, or specifically that atheists have a better understanding of reality and morality based upon their respective opinion of what is in your opinion, an evil god.
In another thread you and I were having a similar discussion with your position being the same, which was, in my opinion, irrelevant and off topic, but here, so long as it don't become the focus of the discussion, I suppose is relevant.
I've been having these sort of discussions for about 20 years now and atheist are always making statements to the effect that theists are dumb, ignorant, stupid, intellectually inferior, intellectually dishonest, hypocrites and liars.
I happen to agree with that sentiment. I did win I was atheist, and if anything it increased upon my becoming theist. Briefly, Ill explain. I think that we all are those things as a result from sin / imperfection, but I think it is more present in theists because they have a guidebook of sorts in the Bible which they are either totally willfully ignorant of or are misguided by pagan influence when considering said guidebook.
It confuses them, and promotes superstitious, paranoid neurotic and psychotic behavior. It seem that to have no guidebook at all would be better than to abuse and neglect one by misreading and adding to it. Like driving down the highway while glancing at a map and interpreting a mustard stain as a giant boulder in the road requiring a quick left turn when one isn't needed.
On a spiritual level that is where most Christians are at, and, unfortunately, ex-christians as well.
"Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it."
Welcome, and I have to admit your replies were unusually more mature then most theist thus far.
"irrelevant and off topic"
I can see why you see it as off topic, but the way i see it is that every time you say a theist god did something is like saying:
A cat which is a dog did something.
In that topic it was saying that an evil god which is a good god. used man to send a message that was so unreliable that it requires other humans to choose 1 meaning out of many.
Ridiculous on those 3 points i made but mostly the fact that A theistic god cannot possibly exist in this universe. It is contradictory.
Omniscience and omnipotence + reality can only generate an evil god, not a good god.
"I happen to agree with that sentiment."
hmm that is new and honest, indeed most theist come out with the most illogical concepts but they fail to see that even the the theistic concept itself is illogical.
"I think that we all are those things as a result from sin / imperfection"
We all have flaws but i do not see how sin has anything to do with it.
Atheists do not follow a rule book but understand better morality. They understand more why they should not do something.
rules are sometimes immoral.
There are situations where it is immoral to not to kill, not to steal, etc...
"which they are either totally willfully ignorant of or are misguided by pagan influence when considering said guidebook."
Yea totally agree.
But are you ready to see that all the bible is immoral in some way, even the fact that it proposes a totalitarian belief system like north Korea?
"It confuses them, and promotes superstitious, paranoid neurotic and psychotic behavior."
Wow it says a lot about you, if you admit to that, my compliments.
"It seem that to have no guidebook at all would be better than to abuse and neglect one"
Agree since understanding is better then mindlessly obeying orders, but the orders themselves are not even moral and we can discuss them if you wish.
I am an ex-Christian and you guessed right, I tried hard to find a way that the christian god could possibly exist, i studied the bible in detail and found out who most likely wrote it and why.
There is no christian god, it just cannot possibly exist in this logical universe because of the contradictions I mentioned.
There cannot be an omniscient/omnipotent/loving character with the results thus far.
I would not have dared doing such a huge claim if i did not explore every single detail.
I truly wanted to believe and the more I looked the more confirmation I found that my belief was wishful thinking, it had no foundation with reality.
Reality proved the contrary.
On a spiritual level I feel I am much more spiritual then any Christian I have met thus far.
I do think we are all connected in some way from the studies I conducted in collective consciousness.
That does not mean that being spiritual has anything to do with a religion though.
Spirituality was hijacked by religion and religion made a monopoly on it because it attracts people.
We could discuss this topic too if you wish.
Really, Christianity or a theistic religion is immoral and illogical.
I am ready to prove this statement because I tried to prove it wrong myself and failed.
Jeff: Welcome, and I have to admit your replies were unusually more mature then most theist thus far.
PM: Thanks, that's good to hear.
Jeff: something is like saying:
A cat which is a dog did something.
In that topic it was saying that an evil god which is a good god. used man to send a message that was so unreliable that it requires other humans to choose 1 meaning out of many.
Ridiculous on those 3 points i made but mostly the fact that A theistic god cannot possibly exist in this universe. It is contradictory.
PM: There are two ways to interpret anything and everything. The right way, or the wrong way. You have a very religious quixotic concept of what a god is, which is confusing you a great deal.
Jeff: We all have flaws but i do not see how sin has anything to do with it.
Atheists do not follow a rule book but understand better morality. They understand more why they should not do something.
rules are sometimes immoral.
There are situations where it is immoral to not to kill, not to steal, etc...
Of course rules are sometimes immoral, because morality is subjective. The Hebrew word sin means to miss the mark set by someone. To miss the target, for example, of an archer or spear-man, or someone with a slingshot would miss their target the word sin was used. So if you sin against your boss, maybe you didn't show up on time, or fill a quota. You can sin against anyone. Adam sinned against Jehovah. His ancestors were born into the results of that. The environment around him is a product of it.
Jeff: But are you ready to see that all the bible is immoral in some way, even the fact that it proposes a totalitarian belief system like north Korea?
PM: No, I don't see that. The Law of Moses was an imperfect set of laws that were introduced to a nation whose primary purpose was to be instructed in their inability to keep that law and produce a Messiah for that they could, at a later time, mature to the point when they were aware of the more perfect law of Christ. Which means, in a sense, no law. Like Paul said, he wouldn't have known that he sinned if it were not for the law.
Jeff: Spirituality was hijacked by religion and religion made a monopoly on it because it attracts people.
We could discuss this topic too if you wish.
PM: Sure, that's sort of what I'm all about.
"PM: There are two ways to interpret anything and everything. The right way, or the wrong way. You have a very religious quixotic concept of what a god is, which is confusing you a great deal."
No, I am sorry I do not accept your excuse at all.
A perfect god that is omniscient can do better then a petty human that does exactly what you are expecting.
"You have a very religious quixotic concept of what a god is, which is confusing you a great deal."
Exactly what I was going to say to you, read my mind.
You claimed he is omniscient and now you are claiming that he planned for people to read it "the wrong way."
If i can read it "the wrong way." so will all people that use logic.(all sane people)
You have yet to even address how illogical the theistic concept is.
claiming that my logic is "the wrong way." does not mean we have 2 different opinions.
It means that you fail so much at showing any kind of sens that you are deluding yourself that it must be my opinion or my wrong way.
Support your claim that my interpretation of what you are claiming is not correct.
"In that topic it was saying that an evil god which is a good god. used man to send a message that was so unreliable that it requires other humans to choose 1 meaning out of many."
You are saying a theistic god= an omniscient/omnipotent god = an evil god(you yet to even defend this logic)
You are saying that an evil god is a good god.
You are claiming that this god somehow is so incompetent to use unreliable humans to send such an important message instead of sending it himself to everybody.(his message hasn't yet reached everywhere to this day)
You are claiming that this message although it is sent by the perfect god, it is not perfect, humans can misinterpret it, god is incapable of sending a clear message even though it is so important.
You are claiming that this unreliable message needs other humans to interpret it, which just happen to be victims of indoctrination.
If you have not been brainwashed when you were a kid you might not be able to interpret it correctly and you may need these people to interpret it for you.
Man do you know how lame you look when you claim those things?
I am as unbiased as you can get, if you cannot even convince me that it is even possible that an omniscient god would be so incompetent, you can't convince any other mature/sane person.
Just claiming I got the wrong interpretation is unacceptable in a mature discussion and I think you know that.
So please start addressing the issues I presented and stop dodging them all the time.
It is getting on my nerves.
"Of course rules are sometimes immoral, because morality is subjective.2
Good to hear we are on the same page on morality.
"Adam sinned against Jehovah. His ancestors were born into the results of that. The environment around him is a product of it."
I disagree, nowhere in the bible does it say that, that is pure indoctrination just there.
God created everything around before Adam was punished unjustly by god(we get into this point later).
Would you deny the fact that god created the world before the garden of Eden in the bible?
"PM: No, I don't see that."
"produce a Messiah for that they could, at a later time, mature to the point when they were aware of the more perfect law of Christ."
What you see is what you believe there should be.
That is not what there is.
The laws of Moses were for the Jews to capture the promised land, there was no messiah there, the bible does not say anything about a messiah until the the time of Babylonian exile.
Surly not at the time of Moses.
Also the messiah mentioned are militaristic just like David was, that would restore Israel to power in the world.
Still you again dodged the question, I said that the NT proposes a totalitarian belief system and you jumped on the OT as if that even matter to the question.
Let me ask it again and this time don't insult me with dodges please.
yes it is insulting.
"Jeff: But are you ready to see that all the bible is immoral in some way, even the fact that it proposes a totalitarian belief system like north Korea?"
There is such confusion in your head about the OT.
I just happen to study it, there is nothing you could invent about it that I would not have at least an idea about.
Just to give you an idea of how much i know about the OT.
The commandments are a misinterpretation of a sentence.(probably done on purpose)
Do not kill is not the proper interpretation, but the piece of a sentence cut out of context.
the sentence has to be read whole to get the proper context.
It means do not kill thy neighbor and it places itself perfectly in the OT context .
God made a pact with the Jews that if they follow his rules he will give them the promised land.
One of those rules was not to kill thy neighbor.
DO NOT KILL YOU FELLOW JEW.
He created a military force where the Jews could not kill each other to be effective.
Basic common sens should get you this far.
They could however kill other people, god himself orders this to happen on many occasion in the bible.
God of the OT is not contradictory as many atheist think but in most cases Christians are making wrong assumptions and thus make such contradictions.
"What, other than the obvious, which is beliefs, makes us different?"
My father is a pentacostal preacher. I am certain that he and I have more in common than not.
Good answer, Chimp. You think alike? You have the same likes and dislikes? You live your life in a similar fashion? That sort of thing? This is what I suspect is true of most of us.
Much in common with Pops . Very different beliefs about religion. He is a Nixon Republican and I a left-leaning libertarian. He a moral conservative and I a person who considers almost any action between consenting adults permissible. Yet , I find I have more in common with him than many atheists or even you PM.
The difference is that a theist has a god and I don't. Other than that, there are as many differences between an atheist and a theist as between one theist and another, or one atheist and another. It is simply inaccurate, IMO, to claim anything else.
Thanks for the response, CyberLN, another poster who agrees with me that we are all pretty much the same, except for the belief. It doesn't really change our lives to move from one to the other. We think the same, we each have various strengths and weaknesses, various interests. Values, morals, personalities, etc.
Did you read what I wrote? I did not say "we are all pretty mch the same." I said quite the opposite.
In addition, I provided exactly zero about how much of a difference having a god versus not having one weighs. IMO, it's very weighty.
The point I was making that you so conveniently missed, is that theist / atheist is about one thing and one thing only. You are in error if you assign any meaning to identifying as one or the other that includes anything beyond a belief in god or none.
CyberLN: Did you read what I wrote?
Yes. You wrote "The difference is that a theist has a god and I don't. Other than that, there are as many differences between an atheist and a theist as between one theist and another, or one atheist and another. It is simply inaccurate, IMO, to claim anything else."
CyberLN: " I did not say "we are all pretty mch the same." I said quite the opposite."
It sure sounded like it to me.
CyberLN: "In addition, I provided exactly zero about how much of a difference having a god versus not having one weighs. IMO, it's very weighty."
Pathway: Well, thanks for clarifying that, I appreciate it.
What sort of a weighty effect might it have on a theist and an atheist, having a god or not?
CyberLN: "The point I was making that you so conveniently missed, is that theist / atheist is about one thing and one thing only. You are in error if you assign any meaning to identifying as one or the other that includes anything beyond a belief in god or none."
Pathway: Hmmm. That was sort of the point I was trying to establish in this thread. I said beside the obvious, which was belief in a god, what differences are there? My opinion is that there aren't many. An atheist and a theist, one from the other are pretty much the same, aside from their beliefs.
Exactly! well said!!!!!!
What, other than the obvious, which is beliefs, makes us different?
Who do you refer to as "us".
Are you asking me to set down how (I think) one theist, who I assume you're asking me to represent as all of them in my treatment of the question, thinks here in writing for all to read? Similarly, asking me postulate the same for his counter-part? Then, are you asking me to discern their differences and state them here?
Well, you can do that, can't you? This thread is your party and the rest of us just come as we are. So, you do the +/- contrast of the two philosophies and we'll all have a go at it to see if there's common ground and if not, why not. Otherwise, I'm not about to take your bait. Not too sharp, are you?
Pitar: Who do you refer to as "us".
PM: People. Specifically atheist and theist.
Pitar: Are you asking me to set down how (I think) one theist, who I assume you're asking me to represent as all of them in my treatment of the question, thinks here in writing for all to read? Similarly, asking me postulate the same for his counter-part? Then, are you asking me to discern their differences and state them here?
PM: [Sigh] Here we go . . .
Pitar: Well, you can do that, can't you? This thread is your party and the rest of us just come as we are. So, you do the +/- contrast of the two philosophies and we'll all have a go at it to see if there's common ground and if not, why not. Otherwise, I'm not about to take your bait. Not too sharp, are you?
PM: You know what. Nevermind. Forget I asked.