How Christianity (Probably) Began

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arakish's picture
How Christianity (Probably) Began

Here is a short video (0:07:05) by Paulogia. The title explains what it is about.

How Christianity (Probably) Began... No Resurrection Required

rmfr

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jonthecatholic's picture
I'm very interested in these

I'm very interested in these topics so thanks for this. This isn't a new proposal, however. I'd be tempted to believe this but the claim that Jesus rose from the dead isn't so simply refuted. Christianity had its roots in Jerusalem, where Jesus died and was buried.

It would be very easy for people to disprove these proclamations that Jesus rose from the dead especially in Jerusalem. The tomb was there. If the tomb had a body, then automatically, the claim would be disproven. However, that did not happen. Also, curious how all other Messianic figures lost all of their followers when they died. It was only Jesus, a man who died a criminal's death, who somehow retained his followers and they grew in numbers.

Even if the first Apostles all had hallucinations, a tomb with Jesus' body would've killed the movement right then and there.

Cognostic's picture
Christians tell all sorts of

Christians tell all sorts of myths about the early expansion of Christianity. How it amazingly spread etc... The fact of the matter is that is spread no differently than any other religion we knew of, About 6% per year. When the great Constantine adopted Christianity while still being a high priest of Mithra, the religion was still a minority faith in Rome.

There was certainly no resurrection required. There wasn't even a Jesus required. Paul knows nothing of a human Jesus with a ministry in his writings. He knows nothing of a virgin birth and according to Paul the resurrection happens in heaven and not on earth. Jesus may simply be a construction of multiple sages of the time combined together and then converted into tales about the new Christian Jesus.

No resurrection, no Jesus, no talking bush, no sermon on the mount etc... etc.... etc.....

jonthecatholic's picture
The video in the OP grants at

The video in the OP grants at the very least Jesus existed. Here's a question for you.

Christianity claims that Jesus is the founder of the religion. Now, you have to at least grant that for any meaningful conversation to move forward. A fictional character cannot create a real religion. The video does attempt to show that Peter and Paul are the founders of the early Christian movement. However, no Christian ever says that. Even founders of specific denominations are known to surely exist. Why the exemption of Christianity and Jesus Christ?

Sky Pilot's picture
JoC,

JoC,

"The video does attempt to show that Peter and Paul are the founders of the early Christian movement."

Paul (and Barnabas) created Christianity. Peter didn't do squat. Paul is the one who developed the Christian doctrine and rituals.

jonthecatholic's picture
If so, why then doesn't any

If so, why then doesn't any Christian church claim that Paul is their founder. Better yet, why doesn't any historian back this idea that Paul is the founder of Christianity?

It seems plausible but without the backing of competent historians, I'm very hesitant to jump in and believe it.

Sky Pilot's picture
JoC,

JoC,

"If so, why then doesn't any Christian church claim that Paul is their founder."

Didn't you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Read the biblical fairy tale. Paul created Christianity, its rituals, and doctrine. Peter didn't do shit. All Peter wanted to do was lop off foreskins and take people's money.

jonthecatholic's picture
Then explain to me again why

Then explain to me again why NO church claims that Paul founded their church. Paul was indeed called a leader of the church but was never called the founder.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

Try talking to any Jehovahs Witness....their whole "foundation" is based on Paul...which is why they are described as Paulines....

jonthecatholic's picture
Do the JW claim that Paul

Do the JW claim that Paul founded their church or even Christianity?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC Not that I am aware,

@ JoC Not that I am aware, but Paul is almost a cult figure with them.

The JW's also believe that the modern church is apostate and has departed from the true teachings.

Fact is Paul did found the modern christianity that you are a part of JoC.

'Paul' defied Jesus' instructions to the apostles by preaching and converting the gentiles. He then demanded that gentiles be admitted to the congregations without the necessity of them converting to Judaism and the rite of circumcision. This caused the first great rift between the original jewish and converted jewish christians and the modern Pauline adherents.

The rift widened through the years until the mid 3rd century when the Early Church Fathers discovered the Jewish Christians in the Temple at Jerusalem and their dispersed temples had their own Aramaic gospels that differed widely from the then Greek synoptics that included the Nativity stories. This culminated in the original jewish christians and all their works ( that undoubtedly pre dated the Pauline versions) being declared anathema.

Arguably 'Paul' is the founder of monolithic christianity as practised in the Roman church and its modern schismatic inheritors.

"Peter" on the other hand has no writings, no corroboration, and no historical credibility as the leader of the Church in Rome.

The strict upholder of Jewish Law, 'Jesus', and his teachings seem to have very, very little to do with christianity as practised today.

jonthecatholic's picture
So, the idea that Paul was

So, the idea that Paul was the founder is a bit of a stretch. I granted that Paul was an important leader as was Peter. Peter does have writings but I suspect you doubt their authenticity. Regardless, neither one is ever pointed out as the founder. Important leaders, yes. But founder(s), no, never. So what you're proposing is but speculation then.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

Peter does have writings but I suspect you doubt their authenticity. Regardless, neither one is ever pointed out as the founder. Important leaders, yes. But founder(s), no, never. So what you're proposing is but speculation then.

There is considerable doubt that the "Peter" you would love to believe was Bishop of Rome ever existed. In fact, apart from a mention in Paul about a "Peter" in (bishop of?) Antioch there is no corroborating evidence at all of such a man.
You would have expected a mention of such an important personage in Paul's canonical letter to the Epistle to the Romans and especially in Chapter 16, which lists many people associated with the church there. Not even a passing mention. No mention in any Roman letters, no mention anywhere except in the gospels.
There is also considerable evidence that there was no position of "Bishop of Rome" until the late 2nd Century, well after the alleged crucifixion of Peter.
There is no evidence that "peter the apostle" (if he existed) was crucified upside down (which would have been a relatively humane and quick death within hours)

Even if one accepts the line that "Cephas" and "Simon Peter" and "Peter" are one and the same then other embarrassing contradictions raise their head, and there is still no contemporary third party evidence. Nothing.

We are back to claims in the bible that do not stand up to the barest modern historical scrutiny ....again.

Tradition has it that 1 Peter was the work of Peter. No evidence for that claim, only attribution by late 2nd century writers. . 2 Peter certainly is not as it the work of anonymous authors in the late 2nd Century CE. In addition the Gospel of Peter and the Apocalypse of Peter are not the work of the 1st Century and are anonymous, but probably written in the late 2nd Century as well.

In my estimation the "Cult of Peter" and probably the bulk of the biblical interpolations that support his supporters claims to be the "founder" of the Church and "leader appointed" were commenced in the mid 2nd Century ( when the Pauline Church was gaining ascendancy) and continued through until the establishment of the god emperor in charge of the church ...of course, in the name of Peter....

Seems to me to make a lot more historical sense and to clarify the claims of the Catholic Church that seized on the legend of Peter, it would certainly explain the interpolations In Matthew, Luke, John and Corinthians that the church relied on for centuries and have now been thought to be much later interpolations.

I think a couple of those verses do not even appear in later versions of non catholic bibles because of the doubts to their authenticity.

(edit tags and word order)

watchman's picture
@JoC.....

@JoC.....

"Christianity claims that Jesus is the founder of the religion."

You know I'm not entirely sure that is true ….

Certainly a Jesus character is the focus of the sect , the "object" of the belief …..

in the same way that Allah is the focus of Islam … but most assuredly it was the Mohammed character that was the founder... in just the same way Jesus is the "centre" or cause of the religion …… but surely not the "founder of the religion".

I recall no quotes from the Jesus character regarding …..

priests ,bishops ,popes ,nuns ,churches ,abbeys, cathedrals ,tithes or any of the paraphernalia that goes with your organised religion ……. so not sure in what sense "Jesus" could be called the founder. .

plus ,for myself ,I have severe doubts about the St Peter character.... why so many names.... aka Peter ,aka Simon Peter ,aka Simeon, aka Simon & aka Cephas …. more alias' than a drug dealer ….. but that's a whole other can of worms.

jonthecatholic's picture
I didn't actually say that

I didn't actually say that since Christians claim __________, therefore it is true. All I said was that Christians claim that Jesus was the founder of Christianity. He is at the same time, the focus of Christianity.

Muslims, on the other hand, claim that Mohammed is the founder of their religion. The focus (as you've stated) is Allah. All I'm saying is why are we casting doubt on whether the founder of Christianity existed but we're not even questioning the existence of other religions. Why the special treatment?

As to your qualms about Simon Peter, there's a reason why his name was chosen as, "Peter" when put into the context of the story. Peter is but a transliteration of his real name. The idea was to keep the meaning of the original name from Aramaic to Greek. So while Simon was his old name, Peter, which means rock, was his new name. And when people get new names, it's usually indicative of something. People don't change names everyday but when they do, it means a significant change.

As Catholics, we point to this point as the point when Jesus appointed him to be the leader among his disciples - a position we now call, pope.

Sky Pilot's picture
JoC,

JoC,

"As Catholics, we point to this point as the point when Jesus appointed him to be the leader among his disciples - a position we now call, pope."

Peter was a circumcision freak. If he had had his way all guys would get their foreskins lopped off when they become Christians. He wasn't a very effective leader.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Dio

@ Dio

The early christians all had to become jews (i.e circumcised and accepted into the covenant) before becoming members of the jewish christian movement. It was the law.
'Paul's' opposition to the practise for gentiles led him to be labelled apostate by the original sects. 'Peter' (if he existed) was an original, just applying the law as it was.
Some christian sects still apply the law of circumcision, god so loves foreskins.

CyberLN's picture
I will never understand why

I will never understand why people want to cut some of it off before they know how big it’s going to get.

arakish's picture
One could say foreskins are

One could say foreskins are god's pork rinds. hmm...

rmfr

Sapporo's picture
Those in favor of

Those in favor of circumcision certainly miss the point.

rat spit's picture
The point or the tip? Ha ha.

The point or the tip? Ha ha. No. Mr. obvious over here. Am I right?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Rat Spit

@ Rat Spit

Yes it was an obvious pun...which most of us respected by silence....*Contemplates large tub of Ratsak" hmmm, maybe Captain Cat needs some help....

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