http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-17/loud-fence-ribbons-removed-from-ba...
Ballarat near Melbourne was one of the epicenters of child sex abuse by Catholic clergy in Australia. Victims and their families started tying ribbons onto the railings in front of Ballarat's St. Patrick's Cathedral in protest, in anger, or in memory of those lost. They called it the "Loud Fence."
As soon as the Royal Commission ended, the Vicar-General of Ballarat organized a posse of self-righteous, blinkered, heartless zombie believers to cut down all of the ribbons. But here's the real punch line. The church made a little "memorial garden" in a corner of the church yard with a special black box to contain all the ribbons.
They hid the victims. They hid the priestly pedophiles and their crimes. And now they're hiding the ribbons. I'm pleased to report that the fence is already festooned again. The ribbons should be tied around the dirty priests' necks. Nice and tight.
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Thoughtless trolls cutting off these symbols of victims... because they don't give a shit about the victims
Algebe I`m so sorry to hear what took place in Australia, I`m from new York state I wasn`t aware of what was transcribing over there. We have had cases of clergy sexual abuse here in the northeast corner of the usa. who ever does these things either to a minor or another adult should face the criminal justice system and charges filed against that person or group of persons. I hope the ribbons go back up and stay up. Its happenings like these why I am sad some of the time to call myself a Christian. These are wolves in sheeps clothing and they will be punished either in this life time or eternally some where. that's why I believe in there is a god, to have justice eventually, as you know Algebe to get justice in this life does not always happen that's why In a way I believe in one who is total justice and love and would act with total justice, You know Algebe there has to be something to right the wrongs that have taken place in humanity, just got to be!!!
@Agnostic Believer: "there has to be something to right the wrongs that have taken place in humanity"
Only people can do that. We can't wait for god to fix things, because he doesn't exist. If there's no justice in this life, there's no justice ever. We all need to get our heads out of heaven and into the here and now, because that's where the problems and solutions are.
I'm afraid the abuse problem isn't just in Australia. It's happening everywhere right now, including the United States. The Catholic church is the worst, but other churches are also guilty, including even the Salvation Army. It sickens me to think of children suffering like that.
How do you know for certain that God doesn`t exist? How do you know that jesus wasn`t the son of God? your making statements which have no merit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your basing your opinions on emotion not facts .as you are well aware of, Mankind has not had the solutions for injustice, This life experience and the remedies put forth by man have not been successful in rooting out forms of many injustices and problems. Like I stated before in a prior thread you really don`t know if there is a God one way or another and your certainly not certain if there is a afterlife .so you can`t dogmatically say as you have that you can`t wait for God to fix things .the bible does say that one day is like a thousand years to God. So I know that where looking for easy answers to our problems now but God in his timing will fix all of that. he has the remedies.
@Agnostic Believer: "How do you know for certain that God doesn`t exist?"
People's beliefs in god vary according to where they were born and the cultural milieu in which they grew up. Even within Christianity there are wildly varying ideas about the nature of god and Jesus.
So I did a little experiment. I took myself back to a blank slate and pretended that I wasn't part of any of these traditions. Just a new man with no preconceived notions. Then I assessed various god stories as if I was hearing them for the first time. You think Christianity is real and sensible because it's your culture. But like all the others, it's just based on ancient hearsay and inherited beliefs that some human beings made up a long time ago. There's nothing to link it to reality. No I can't prove a negative, but I can say that the probability is so infinitesimally small that it's not even worth considering.
I'm sorry, but to me your god is as real as leprechauns and ghosts.
This is an attempt to shift the burden of proof. I don't believe any of the god claims that I have heard that gods or god exists. If you do, please describe that god or those gods, and then prove that they exist
Dear AB,
unfortunately for your beliefs and lovely phrases, is it also not a fact that catholics believe if these priests confess and receive absolution after repenting their sins they will be in heaven anyway?
How is that justice?
The Church has flatly refused to accept the recommendations of the Royal Commisission regarding the reporting of suspected child abuse, the onus on the confessor to report suspected child abuse and other recommendations accepted by most other organisations. Nothing has changed for these gangsters. Not in Australia and not in the USA. The bastards play a long game hoping this is not a change in public morals but a blip in their authority.
With luck the members fleeing this corrupt and cruel organisation will accelerate and it will crumble into dust in my grandchildrens' lifetimes.
@ Algebe
As you can see from the above I am of the opinion those bastards should be declared a criminal organisation and their assets confiscated, their priests forbidden to associate and their meeting places bulldozed and sold. This happens to every other convicted child rapist in Australia; why not this organisation that conceals, organizes, facilitates and celebrates child rapists in its ranks?
Well I don't concur that even if they confess and receive absolution that they may go to heaven, here is where I and the church that I'm espousing separate. I`m saying this over and over tonight that I believe there is final and total justice for everyone who has lived or going to live in this world. I agree with you totally that should be harsher penalties given in this lifetime. But that is justice in this life but I feel and do truly believe that there will be total justice someday.ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL be hidden or not dealt with fairly. God will put an final end for all the weeping and unfairness attributed to mankind on his fellow man. and you really can`t say I`m wrong here because to be fair minded you just don`t know!!!
And to be fair minded the confession, redemption and absolution is core to your espoused belief system. If you dont accept that then you are not a Catholic or Episcopalean ( of the High Church Variety) You are just cherry picking. To deny absolution as a an essential part of the ministry is an excommunicable offence.
Congrats, you believe " My Sky Fairy will make all the boo boos better when I'm dead" try saying that instead of your rosary...its just as ridiculous.
Better still try saying it to a victim of these bastards.
The priesthood couldnt even attend the last day of the Hearings, they still lie, obfuscate and cover up. Anyone who espouses that kind of example is gutless at best and well, words fail me..or will probably get me banned.
You cannot say for sure that once this physical life passes that there is no place else, because your limited in experience and as I can see don't observe or have any knowledge of all mighty God. Your only coming to suppositions based on your life experience and of others you are finite. you can`t relate to things spiritual because your ignorant of such things.
"You cannot say for sure that once this physical life passes that there is no place else, because your limited in experience" Neither can you. What was this post meant to say? Because it says absolutely nothing except display your ignorance and wishful thinking.
Are you claiming that you have observed and have knowledge of any mighty god? If you are, then evidence please or shut up.
what I`m saying is if god is real displayed by jesus Christ life and sayings then you have to shut your mouth. Because there is an after life and a heaven. And since no body can account for jesus body there is a possibility that he rose like the new testament said. And no amount of your hatred for him or your overlooking aspects of jesus life is going to change that.
You seem to have a real problem AB, and you are trying to straw man this thread into something other than disgust at the Catholic Church and other organisations culpable behaviour.
Accordingly I shall ignore your shrill remarks and claims without evidence. If you want to discuss those go to a different thread.
It shows that you are running away from the arguments I stated, but that's okay that is expected. if you cant stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.lol
I've put a new forum up with this argument to be discussed in its proper place. Where it wont distract form the hideous truth of the Catholic Church and others.
@Agnostic Believer: "Because there is an after life and a heaven."
Even if you believe that (and I most certainly do not), you and all the other Catholics, etc., need to live your lives as if there's no afterlife. Commit yourselves to improving this world, and to creating justice and protecting the vulnerable in this life. Otherwise you are just empowering these corrupt priests and bishops.
@Old Man Who Shouts at Clouds
Couldn't agree more. Ditto for the Salvation Army, etc.
Re: Those who sexually abuse children
I will try to put this as simply as I can. It is my personal view and deep belief that any individual duly tried and duly convicted of sexually abusing a child in any manner should be promptly placed on his/her knees and have a bullet sent through the back of his/her head. Period. Moreover, I would gladly volunteer to be the one pulling the trigger, and would even supply my own ammunition if necessary.
I understand there may be a few folks out there who might find that to be "harsh or extreme". To that I say, "BULLSHIT." If anything, it is actually a much kinder punishment than the fuckers truly deserve. What kind of society are we if we do not protect our children from such demented predators? And as for the Catholic church and any other such organization that protects and hides such sick and perverted monsters for the sole purpose of protecting their precious reputations and their over-stuffed bank accounts, I consider each and every individual actively involved in those cover-ups to be just as guilty as the malignant piece of shit who actually committed the act. I can forgive many things in this world, but committing such an atrocity against an innocent and defenseless child is NOT one of those things. And if the lecherous parasite believes he/she can ask for God's forgiveness for such deplorable acts, then I would be more than happy to arrange the meeting for them.
My rustic friend your making your anger control your emotions and from seeing things in the right perspective. Nobody has the right to administer death punishment as you described above to the clergy. they are in need of forgiveness and therapy. there is something in the unconscious of these people that is driving them to this kind of behavior. I t has to be brought to the surface with counselling and behavioral care methods. So yes your methods of dealing with this is extreme and harsh Men and women who belong to the cloth take vows and usually have a high form of education. they get involved in peoples lives because they care about people. to waste all of that by judging them and executing them is not in my opinion the answer. No one in this life is beyond forgiveness
@AB/DC
Your clergy are so highly educated that "there is a widespread belief among the clergy [in the Catholic Church] that breaking the vow of celibacy is the penetrative act with a member of the opposite sex, not sexual contact with young boys" That is a very slight paraphrase from the Royal Commission report.
Whereas I may disagree with TMs presumptive execution model the Catholic Church in this instance has proved itself rotten, root and branch. The clergy were held in special esteem and privilege, they abused it and their "flock" wholesale and retail and then, not content with being complicit, the bishops, archbishops and Cardianals paid shut up money, hired goons to threaten witnesses, ostracised victims brave enough to speak out and used very expensive lawyers to further extract contracts of silence from victims and withesses.. Furthermore the heirarchy still refuse to take responsibility and continue issue apologetics.
AB, I am more and more convinced you are neither confused, christian or clever. I am convinced you are a Troll.
well the Eucharistic pray recited before the giving of it says look not on your sins but on your faith: That's what it all comes down to forgiveness and reconciliation. Only a slight percent were ever involved in clergy abuse, you make it sound like it was the majority everywhere that it was prevalent. So I`m rebutting you and saying it was not. Please say a pray for the church, because there are a lot of good going on there a lot of sincere people who only want is to praise God. Don`t throw the baby out with the bath water please.
It was and is not "a tiny percentage" the Royal Commission in Australia and the various enquiries in the US have proved it to be a widespread, pernicious corruption reaching right to the archbishoprics. At one time in Ballarat it looks like nearly every priest was either involved in or complicit in the abuse.
If it was any other organisation than the church it would be broken up, its assets sold and its practice forbidden. That there are good people involved in the church; agreed. Are they the "good people" who took down the ribbons? "the good people" who told their children they must be lying because Father...was a priest?
Were the nuns who viciously beat children for speaking out "good people" or is it because they take confession and communion, they are bound for heaven? you don't seem to have much wiggle room AB.
@Agnostic believer: "Only a slight percent were ever involved in clergy abuse"
The Catholic church itself has estimated that about 7% of clergy are involved. That's one in 14. The Royal Commission found that over 20% of clergy in some institutions were involved. They estimated that 2,000 priests, brothers, sisters, etc., were guilty. Not a slight percentage. And that's just Australia.
And then there's the involvement of the church authorities. Do you think the Australian church handed over the guilty? No. They used their influence in police forces and government to impede investigations. They transferred offenders to other parishes. Investigators in New Zealand found that St John of God brothers who abused children in their schools had engaged in similar behavior in Australia before being transferred.
Australia and New Zealand are not Catholic-dominated countries. Imagine what the situation must be like in traditionally Catholic countries in Latin America and Europe.
I don't understand how anyone with a conscience can stay in that organization.
Agnostic Believer: "forgiveness and reconciliation"
That's a joke. A lot of the abused children end up committing suicide, so your church condemns them.
@Agnostic Believer: "they are in need of forgiveness and therapy."
If someone feels these urges and seeks help and therapy, they have my sympathy. Indeed, many are themselves former victims of abuse.
But when someone deliberately puts themselves in a position of authority as a priest or teacher, etc., so they can prey on innocent children, they lose all right to sympathy and deserve the severest punishment. Those who facilitate or cover up their wrongdoing are equally guilty. I'm not sure about shooting the swine, but they deserve to be locked up permanently where they can do no more harm.
@AB/DC Re: “My rustic friend your making your anger control your emotions and from seeing things in the right perspective.”
*Mockingly laughing* Oh, you poor, pathetic, ignorant little man. *chuckle* Considering you know absolutely nothing about me apart from a few posts I have made on this site, it is terribly presumptuous of you to make such a misguided statement concerning my “anger and emotions.” Do I get angry and upset when I hear about an innocent and helpless child being sexually abused? Absolutely. More than you can possibly imagine. (More than you probably WANT to imagine, actually.) Does it enrage me beyond words to hear how the sick and twisted monsters who committed such acts against those children are protected and hidden away to prevent them from being held accountable for their condemnable actions? Oh, yes. Very much so. The revulsion it causes in me almost makes me want to puke. However, I am afraid you are grievously and very foolishly mistaken if you believe for even one instant my anger and emotions prevent me from “seeing things in the right perspective.” Perhaps a little more insight into my “metallic mind” might be useful to help you understand. Please humor me a moment as I provide you with a small piece of background about myself.
My profile name “Tin-man” is not simply a neat little name I made up for myself for use on this site. Fact is, “Tin-man” is a nickname bestowed upon me many years ago as a reference to the Tin Man character in “The Wizard of Oz.” Why? Because in that movie it is commonly believed the Tin Man had no heart, meaning he was “cold” and had no compassion and had no empathy for others. Well, apparently – *chuckle* – there were those who believed the same of me, hence the pseudo-moniker that has been with me for a good portion of my adult life. The irony here, however, is that the Tin Man in the movie actually had a heart the entire time. And, truth be known, I also have a very big and caring heart... when allowed. There is a difference, though. And it is a very important difference. Remember at the end of the movie where the Wizard was giving Tin Man the “heart”? It was basically a heart-shaped clock on a necklace, right? This implies he could take could take his heart off or put it on as he pleased. Well, we all know the Tin Man in the movie could never do that, because the “heart” around his neck was merely a symbol of his true overall character. As for myself here in reality, on the other hand, under the right circumstances I can easily take that pendant from around my neck and lay it aside as if it never existed. There would be no anger. There would be no compassion. There would be no empathy. There would be no emotions of any sort guiding my thoughts, decisions, or actions. Therefore, it is considerably comical to me that you assume to know what may or may not be affecting my “perspective.” And in that respect I consider you a blubbering child who has no true concept of reality.
As I state in my profile, I enjoy laughing and joking and having fun whenever possible. Furthermore, I enjoy helping people and making others feel good about themselves. I do have a heart. And my heart goes out to all of those helpless and innocent babes who will be forever scarred – both physically and emotionally – by the thoughtless and malicious cruelties inflicted upon them. My heart goes out to all the adults who endlessly blame themselves and constantly question how they could have allowed themselves to be violated in such ways during their youth. And my heart goes out to the parents as they endure the screams and cries of terror from the nightmares that invade the sleep of their precious son or daughter, and live with the nagging feelings of guilt and shame at thinking maybe they could have done more to protect them. But make no mistake, if ever given the opportunity, I would gladly set that heart aside in an instant to perform the just punishment of execution to the sick and demented creatures who would commit such atrocities as they cower behind the skirts of the pious and self-righteous “holy men” whose only concerns are to protect their despicable reputations and their bloated bank accounts all in the name of some imaginary “all-loving-all-forgiving” entity.
Yes, there are those who do not agree with my suggested form of punishment. That is fine. I do not expect everybody to have the same views and ethics as I do. I am also aware there are those who might say that killing the loathsome child molesters will not necessarily do anything to help the victims. It might surprise you to know I am in total agreement with that particular statement. It is absolutely true the victim will still have to live with and somehow cope with the horror of what was done to him/her. Sadly, that is a fact, and nothing can change it. Here is another fact, though: By getting rid of the monster, it is one hundred percent guaranteed that particular monster will never again harm another child and thus create other victims. And if I were allowed to help get rid of those monsters, I would pull the trigger with about as much emotion as shooting a paper target on the range. Then I would go home that night, drape that heart necklace back around my neck, have a wonderful dinner with my wife, and sleep soundly and peacefully upon going to bed.
Caveat: AB/DC, as for your pathetic and woefully disturbing attempts to excuse and defend those degenerate fiends you seem to hold in such grand esteem, I will not lower myself to dignify them with a response, as I am most confident there are already others on this site who have done a more than adequate job of destroying your imbecilic remarks.
You say that you retired from law enforcement career well the first thing you do when you arrest someone is give them there Miranda rights statement and then you go about processing them. The person is still innocent into proven guilty. In the great USA we have the thing called the bill of rights from the constitution. Also the penal code states that no harm should be done to potential arrested individuals .what your advocating is a form of barbarism and shouldn`t be the type of behavior from a law enforcement individual. It doesn`t matter to me how many names that you call me by, Because I have the heart that I can see you are lacking. Your like a psychopath tin nut. Go seek mental health care at once. because not only are you a danger to yourself but your a threat to others just like the criminal minds that you arrested.
@AB/DC. Re: Mental health
*laughing* You crack me up. Obviously, little man, you failed to read the part about punishing those who are "duly tried and duly convicted." Then again, I do not expect your reading comprehension skills to be up to par. As for my mental health, you are right about one thing. I can be dangerous under the right conditions, but never toward those who are helpless and innocent. *still laughing*
Algebe,
Boycott the church with signs and pickets.
'agnostic believer ......
"Only a slight percent were ever involved in clergy abuse, "
You do yourself no favours by acting as an apologetic for these scum...... and ,of course, you are wrong....
It seems to be around 5% of catholic clergy have been involved in these vile practices over the last 50 years .
But of course you are overlooking those that sheltered ,harboured ,enabled and over looked these crimes..... all equally guilty .... all equally responsible.
From the suspicious parent who tells her child not to say anything to the Cardinal who blocks police enquiries to the Bishops who move the perpetrators on to new parishes (even in different countries) thus providing these predators with fresh hunting grounds.
And this is just the sexual abusers of children ..... no mention yet of the abduction and sale of babies by the bloody nuns.... Spain ,Argentina , Australia ,Ireland ,Italy...... and what of the enforced labour of the Magdalene Convents . effectively modern day slavery...
But just to be even handed ..... it isn't just the Roman Catholic (or should that be CRIMINAL ?) church .... is it..... all creeds are equally tainted Evangelicals ,Anglicans ,Presbyterians..... the list goes on and on and on every week a new outrage reaches the light of day ...... every bloody week..
And then you turn up..... trying to belittle the crime...... tell me....please ....do you see yourself as a criminal...?
Aiding and abetting ..... ? accessory after the fact....?
Justify your post ...... explain your lack of outrage ....... .
Even by your own twisted beliefs the shepherd is supposed to protect the flock...... NOT SHAG THE SHEEP.
On your feet you miserable little scrote ..... defend your position
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