How can it possibly be that you can COMPLETELY believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, invisible God while at the very same time you don't, or can't, or won't see and face the overwhelming physical evidence that's right in front of your faces about your evil pedophile priests and their higher-ups, all the way to the top of the Church? How do you explain that? And just exactly why in the hell wouldn't that all-powerful, all-knowing space-daddy of yours have done SOMETHING to stop it WAY before now, you know, like maybe it two or three generations ago?!? Your blind-eyed hypocrisy, intentional ignorance and lack of moral integrity make me sick to my stomach.
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Your question is addressing the problem of evil. No christian has ever ben able to explain why evil and suffering exist, although many have claimed to have done so.
The pithiest explanation I've ever found is from Epicurus. Well, actually it's an answer, but does not explain why evil exists. The atheist has a lot less difficulty as I'm sure you're aware
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
As for why Catholics haven't done anything; They were simply unaware until quite recently. Priests have been held in such reverence, that the idea simply never occurred to most Catholics . Certainly not to me , while I was a practising Catholic, nor later, until it was made public .
Since the scandal has been made public, a great many Catholics have made a lot of fuss. That meant the scandal would never just go away,.Thousand of catholics have left the church because of the scandal.
I think it's unjust to rail at catholics for the scandal . The ignorant faithful are also victims. In my opinion, the blame lies with an ineffably arrogant and corrupt institution which ignored the problem of the abuse of children by clergy for CENTURIES . I can remember reading that the pope of the day was warned about problems with a celibate clergy IN THE SIXTH CENTURY. Now, I can't produce that reference, so it must be treated as hearsay. However, it makes sense to me that a celibate clergy would have always attracted the same kinds of men as in modern times.
The whole thing disgusts me.In my opinion, the sooner the Catholic church vanishes from the face of the earth, the better it will be for human kind. The current pope is helping that end I think, because he either doesn't get it, or is the doddering old twit he seems to be.---It's still very much business as usual. It's still a matter of far too little, far too late.
Yep, I'm afraid the topic of the Catholic church is something about which I am extremely cranky. However, I think blaming the victims is too easy.
@Cranky
Hey, real quick, just wanted to let you know it has been great reading many of your posts here lately in various threads. For what it's worth, it is really nice having another level-headed and rational thinker among us. Keep up the good work.
@Tin Man; thank you ,very kind of you to say.Appreciated. Likewise; It has occurred to me that one or two of the people here are not all there.
@Cranky Re: "It has occurred to me that one or two of the people here are not all there."
Yep. We have some real "winners" on here sometimes, that's for sure. LOL You ain't seen nuthin' yet, though. Hang around long enough and you will eventually discover the ones you are seeing right now are actually at the top of their food chain... *chuckle*...
Oh, cranky my friend, I most certainly place the vast majority of blame at the doorstep of The Vatican and the pedophiles themselves, of course. No question about it. And I'm not exactly blaming the people you're calling the victims here, certainly not in the way you suggest. As you correctly assert, most of them didn't even know anything about it until fairly recently and I get that. But the Catholics that I'm calling out, and am so disgusted by, are the remaining faithful that still put the money in the plate every week, that still close their eyes to the vastness of the scandal and that still don't demand accountability from their leaders and the perpetrators of these heinous acts. And there are hundreds of millions of them. "It wasn't my church", right? And just for the record, let's not forget who the REAL victims are here and it certainly isn't the remaining faithful in the pews! It's the thousands upon thousands of children that were raped, many of whose lives were literally destroyed. Everyone else got off easy!
It isn't unjust to rail against "rank & file" Catholics, because if they're still Catholics, they're still supporting and tithing to the church that's still protecting and enabling the child rapists, and bemoaning the attacks on them and their priests, blaming the victims 'til this day.
Jimmy Neutron: Interestingly it is the Catholic Church that gets all the publicity. Child Abuse and Molestation are every bit as prevalent in our Protestant Churches. " Wartburg Watch" and "Watch Keep," (Blogs dedicated to Christian Survivors).
Clergy Sexual Abuse in U.S. Mainline Churches
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41279397?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse
"According to a new study sponsored by LifeWay Christian Resources, 10 percent of Protestant churchgoers under 35 have previously left a church because they felt sexual misconduct was not taken seriously. That’s twice as many as the 5 percent of all churchgoers who have done the same."
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/may/lifeway-protestant-abuse...
MOLESTING CHILDREN SEEMS TO BE "A RELIGIOUS THING." I would no more trust my kids to be around a priest than I would a serial killer.
@Cog Re: "I would no more trust my kids to be around a priest than I would a serial killer."
Actually, I would trust the serial killer more than the priest. At least many serial killers do have some form of personal integrity and code of conduct.
I will be late for a meeting or I could pull the article from this week on the Boy Scouts out of the recycling bin.
It is NOT a religious thing. The pedophiles go where they can most easily gain trust & power over the victims. Sports coaches, Boy scouts, etc. Anywhere children congregate, the pedophiles move in. The 'religious' ones just add another level of power trip and ability to manipulate because of the previously VERY high level of trust.
I filed the reference SOMEWHERE on abuse rates / capita in the various religious groups. The Jehovah Witness were top. Mormons were up high on the list. General rule of thumb, the more control the 'clergy' have over the congregation, the higher the rate of abuse.
I helped out the Baptist lady who wanted to know how she could generate as much media coverage over the Baptist pedophiles as the Catholic ones. I told her she can't. Catholics are 1/6 of the world population & the largest single denomination in the US. Baptists don't have the numbers.
It is the same reason shooting up your workplace is called 'going Postal.' Post Office employees are only minutely more violent. It is just that the Post Office is the nation's largest employer so it has the largest number of employees.
Please allow me to point out that in my home town in NC that we have had SEVERAL preachers and ministers arrested because of sexual abuse allegations. That’s Baptist, Methodists,Catholics, the whole damn works! It’s not uncommon at all! The stupid people who trust these beasts with their children are too god damned blinded by ignorance to see why a grown ass man would want to be alone with children. I hate, and I do mean hate, everything about religion, church, god, Jesus and the rest of the bullshit.
I spend about every non-working moment working on fighting pedophilia in the Catholic Church. I am at over 3,000 individuals and organizations. I try to coordinate between about a dozen different Catholic & non-Catholic organizations.
The Australian canon lawyer and the sociologist published two documents. The first is a legal report entitled “Canon Law – A Systemic Factor in Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church.” (free download from National Catholic Reporter) written for the Australian government. The second is the lay version “Potiphar’s Wife.” (buy on line for real money) . I verified the information with the author of the second book and the legal firm from the movie Spotlight. A third is “Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church; An Interpretive Review of the Literature and Public Inquiry Report” another free download through the Center for Global Research; School of Global, Urban and Social Studies, RMIT Both books thoroughly document how the vatican ORDERED the bishops to protect the pedophiles starting 100 years ago.
@ Mrs Paul Owczarek:
I have been a recovering Catholic since 1967. I left due to a loss of faith and emergence of reason.
I attended an all boys Catholic school, run by De La Salle brothers, for 7 years. As was the practice in Catholic education at that time, their favourite teaching aid was the strap. Years later I realised that it was because of incompetence. I never heard so much as a hint of any kind of sexual misconduct involving any of the brothers.. ONE time, two boys were discovered together. To his great credit, the principle saw each of the boys' peers privately. (of course we all knew.) He asked us not to judge them and to not to be unkind to them. That is what happened.
After leaving school, I was president of the local YCW for 3 years.
My point is, I didn't see or hear of anything 'untoward'. Didn't enter my head as a possibility, so I may well have missed cues due to my naivete.
I do remember reading that the Pope of the day was warned not to insist on a celibate clergy IN THE FIFTH CENTURY. Now I don't have that reference handy, so the claim must be taken as hearsay. However, it is my opinion that people have always had the same nature. That even then the same kinds of men would have been attracted to holy orders; mostly ordinary, devout people, some truly good, some rather weak, and a few very weak and lacking restraint and conscience. Over time, a culture of acceptance and protection would have become the norm at an institutional level.
I think it is truly naive to think this is issue exists mainly in the Catholic church. In a institutional setting such horrible practices I think leave a trail for anyone with the motivation, intelligence, and tenacity to follow.
I have read reports of such abuse in such disparate communities as Church Of England, Hasidic Jewish Communities , an Islamic school and within Amish communities.
In my opinion, child sexual abuse is NOT a problem soley or mainly within religious communities/organisations. It is a community issue people are still unwilling or unable to accept happens in virtually all communities to some extent. It is my view that child sexual abuse has occurred and will continue to occur in any situation in which and adult has power over children . OF course I don't mean to say this will ALWAYS occur. I do mean to say it DOES occur and will continue . I have no idea how common it is, but I am convinced far more common than we realise or are willing to admit.
It's as with rape generally; Every man CAN but not every man DOES.
This is my perception. I hope I'm wrong. I'm not sure enough studies have yet been done to support my conclusion.
An issue with that, is that when it does happen within a close & secretive religious community, they're above and outside the law. They're not answerable to any but themselves, they send out instructions to not let the problem or accusations out for the law of the land to address, they sweep it under the prayer rug and "laterally transfer" the offender with no watch kept on them or warning to the new flock they can now be predatators of.
Generations of this have gone on and are continuing.
Yet they keep insisting that these organizations are the sole arbiters of good behavior.
This debate topic was never intended to be about whether or not physical abuse only happened in the Catholic Church or not. Of course it didn't and of course it doesn't. Everyone knows that. But pointing out that 'Johnny did it, too" is not even close to a credible, defensible position on this issue. The point I'm trying to make is that the actual Catholic Church, you know, the 1.2 BILLION member institution that has held itself out as the moral authority to the world for centuries now; from the very top on down, oversaw and orchestrated a massive cover-up which included paying off victims with a pittance, hiring expensive lawyers, lying about everything and moving pedophiles to where they could commit their crimes over and over again, all the while showing complete disregard for the thousands and thousands of victims they should have been protecting in the first place! It was SYSTEMIC! It wasn't just 'bad apples' or any of that nonsense. It was the INSTITUTION ITSELF! I'm simply asking, if you're still a Catholic and you must stay in that organization for whatever reason, how do you NOT do everything in your power to hold those that are responsible for this travesty accountable to the very best of your ability? Most of the Catholics I know basically shoulder shrug or offer these same type of lame excuses I'm seeing here that pedophilia is everywhere and/or that it wasn't their priest and/or that it's no worse with Catholics than anywhere else in the world. That simply isn't good enough. That's what I can't stomach.
Re: Jimmy - "Most of the Catholics I know basically shoulder shrug or offer these same type of lame excuses I'm seeing here that pedophilia is everywhere and/or that it wasn't their priest and/or that it's no worse with Catholics than anywhere else in the world. That simply isn't good enough. That's what I can't stomach."
Yep. The man has a damn good point... *nodding head in agreement*...
I was just reading and watching more about the Buffalo? diocese with Bishop Malone that Siobhan (?) the lady who was on 60 Minutes worked at.
In addition to passing off their sexual abuse defense attorney (The Wolf) as a sex abuse prosecutor, they were asking the victims, "Are you sure it was the priest? After all, the organist is a sex offender as well."
The Bishop thinks he is doing a good job.
I also watched the webinar with the ex-priest who was part of the 'HR' department in the 80's in charge of picking bishops. JPII only wanted pretty penis worshipers. (The ex-priest used the fancy, smancy theological terms like - 'Sexual orthodoxy' and adamant no women priests as criteria. The pretty was MANDATORY.)
Apparently, he was more interested in how they were in the sack rather than any hint of competency or compassion. Either that he was recognizing that the function of a bishop is a prop in a Catholic coming of age ceremony; when the children are too old for 'Chuckles the Clown.'
In any case - BOY DOES IT SHOW!
Jimmy, it was not my intention to use the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. OF COURSE , as I've said, the Catholic church is an ineffably corrupt institution, responsible for great evil over millennia.
I'm sorry if I missed the point. MY point was that it seems to me that we hear very little about other sources of abuse. That as evil as the church is, the abuse from that institution is the tip of the iceberg. OF COURSE, the harm done by the church cannot be dismissed or trivialised. However, I think the extent of the problem needs to be addressed.
I m not disagreeing with your basic position.
Ok, cranky. I appreciate the clarification. As I told you before, I've read enough of your posts to respect your positions and the underlying foundations for them. Even if and when I may slightly disagree or take issue with a particular point you make, it's basically akin to a Lutheran arguing with a Methodist over church doctrine or something; there's not going to be a whole lot of variance in the way we see things. I just wanted to make sure that I made my point more clearly and more assertively because I felt that it was being sidetracked and lost down the rabbit hole of whose pedophilia was bigger and I didn't want that to happen. I don't mean that you did that; I'm just saying that that's where the conversation seemed to be headed, which to me, was basically irrelevant and missing the point. Anyway, thanks for the feedback and keep the great posts coming.
@Jimmy Neutron: Your point is well taken and it still extends well past the Catholics. Why would anyone support a protestant denomination where pedophilia is common? Why support any institution, when by doing so, you are perpetuating child abuse and molestation. "Scientology" also comes to mind here. It's not a lame excuse to say pedophilia is everywhere. It is pointing out a fact and it does nothing at all to your primary assertion. "What the fuck is wrong with people who support these organizations." (Obviously Paraphrased.) Why limit what you can't stomach to only the Catholics? I personally found evidence against a preacher once and had him arrested by reporting the abuse. He was never again allowed to be in a position of teaching children and he had to register as a sex offender. I would have done exactly the same if he were a Catholic. And the result would have been exactly the same. The asshole I reported probably became a missionary in some foreign country like Nigeria. "It's not just the Catholics" is not an excuse in any way shape or form.
Thanks, Tin-Man. I mean, even if you could ignore their apathy about it, overall it actually IS worse with the Catholics, anyway, right? In most other sexual assault cases the entire experience is unquestionably a horrible, painful nightmare for the victims, which is plenty bad enough, but with the way the Catholic Church handled it, it's clearly undeniable insult on TOP of injury, meted out by the highest (and all other) levels of the Catholic Church; the same church that these children put their faith in and based much of their lives on. To me, that's definitely worse; MUCH worse. It's unconscionable!
Jimmy, is it worse than putting one’s faith in their, say, mother to protect them and having that fail? Is that a larger or smaller insult upon injury?
There is no totem pole of value for pain. What might, on the surface seem a lesser assault could, based on the fragility of the victim, produce more and longer lasting damage than what might be seen as a more brutal assault.
The results of sexual assault just cannot be measured against its perpetrators. It can only be seen in the lives of its victims.
@Jimmy: "it actually IS worse with the Catholics," NOOOOOO! This is the point that has been made over and over and over. It is not worse with the Catholics. They are just the largest organization with the most power and the most money,. They are more visible than other group but the problem is significant and everywhere.
Assemblies of God pastor in Ozarks fired amid child sex abuse allegations
https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/crime/2019/03/08/assemblies-god-p...
Southern Baptists and the Scandal of Church Sexual Abuse
https://www.russellmoore.com/2019/02/10/southern-baptists-and-the-scanda...
Director of Mormon Temple Videos Charged with First Degree Sexual Abuse of a Child
https://truthandtransparency.org/news/2019/4/10/director-of-mormon-templ...
Pick your faith ---- It is going on, and on, and on, and on...
Ok, Cog, I know and totally understand that the sexual abuse of children has been happening everywhere and in all kinds of organizations, even in numbers that are proportional to what happened in the Catholic Church. I GET THAT! I've understood that from the very beginning. But I'm talking about more than just the NUMBERS here! I mean, honestly, are you telling me that there has been anywhere near the equivalent, purposeful, secretive, decades long campaign to cover it up and facilitate future rapes the way the Catholic Church did?!? I guess it's possible that maybe all of these churches and organizations actually have done that; I don't know. But I've not seen credible evidence of that, at least nowhere near to the same degree. Feel free to enlighten me if that evidence exists. But if you're just talking about the similar amount of rape ratios in these other organizations, then I stand FIRMLY behind my assertion that it is INDEED worse with the Catholics due to the way the Church itself has handled it for more than half a century. I'm talking about the Church, not just the pedophile priests! The Church was never concerned with the well-being of the victims and their actions only exacerbated the problem. How does that NOT make it worse? I'm sorry, but it just does.
Jimmy, until a couple of decades ago, most EVERYONE covered it up...families, law enforcement, schools, the medical community...and concern with the victim came after concern for the perpetrators’ reputations.
@Jimmy: re: The biggest and oldest church Obviously equals the most offenses by number. "Agreed." BUT --- the data is misleading.
A similar situation is the statistical fact that religious organizations contribute more to society in the form of donations, aid, and social assistance than do Atheist organizations. This is true if you look at the raw data. But atheists only make up 6% of the population. Of course religions make more contributions. They make more of everything including crimes... so what?
RE: The Church was never concerned with the well-being of the victims and their actions only exacerbated the problem. How does that NOT make it worse? I'm sorry, but it just does.
What Protestant Church is protesting the burning of witches in Nigeria. Where are the protestants stopping the killing, mutilation and abandoning of children who have been identified as "possessed" by their preachers. These parents who live with demons and do not have the money for exorcism simply kill, mutilate or abandon their kids. Where is the Christian concern with well being? It is never there!! (Getting a good person to do something horrific takes religion.)
Here is something really sick and never mentioned: It is the God Fearing Christian Population accusing these people of being witches. (There are more graphic videos of the people in the ditch being struck with tree branches being set on fire and burned to death. ) PRAISE THE LORD.
I am in no way claiming you are wrong with your perception of Catholics. I would just like to see you hold all religion with equal disdain. I think if you want to focus on Catholics because you were once Catholic and have a special focus on them, that's fine. I seriously doubt they are doing anything "worse" than can be found in any other religious organization. Religion Poisons Everything (Hitchens)
You can have the last word. I'm happy as shit to see anyone hold up a magnifying glass to the Catholics and all the bullshit they have done. You get no objections from me at all in that regard;. So... Keep up the good work.